Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Not to muddy the waters too much on such a good thread, but this discussion also applies to 1975 and older cars imported into California from overseas. Ask me, I know from personal experiance. The DMV will not flag the car for smog inspection if it is 1975 or older. So you can register your 1972 Hakosuka, but if the CHP flag it for emissions compliance, or someone rats you out, you will have to take the car to the REF to get the registration and ticket cleared. Once the REF sees the triple carbs and non-US engine block, you are sunk. Only way out is to swap in a US engine and emissions equipment and have the car get a BAR engine swap sticker. This is what I am going through right now. I second the request to see if any of the RB swapped Z's have ever been stopped for emissions? CTC, that has not changed since I re-imported my US Specification 240Z with an early model L24 in it. By serial number, the engine predated 1971, and was changed (overseas) before the May 1984 restriction on pre-dating engine swaps. I had an L24 that serially was before the first released in the USA, so therefore they concluded it was a "JDM" engine... I went through ALL the hoops, and finally went to the Referee, who refused to certify the vehicle with complete 1971 Smog Equipment on it (*Even though it was piping 1/10th the required emissions levels for the 1973 standard. Actually piped clean to 83 standards!*) In the end, because it was a JDM engine, I was required to install all US Specification equipment on it as required for 1973 model year. Which I did. Flat Tops, EGR, everything. I was so P.O. at the time I said "the next time you see this car it's going to have an LS6 454 Big Block in it from a 73 Corvette in it" and the Referee smiled and said "Oh, we can smog THAT!" (I wanted to put an H&K or Benelli shotgun in his smug face and 'pull the trigger till it clicks' and that point!) So I scoured the area and after finally locating a $300 1973 Air Cleaner (the last part I needed) I had a complete 1973 emissions setup on the car...and the car THEN took 9 times to pass (with me doing the adjustments because Dinh Quak didn't know how to adjust SU's...and was going STRAIGHT for the balance screw to adjust the mixture with a screwdriver. Cost me $10 to do my own adjustments, what a DEAL! Eventually, on test #9 it juuuuuust barely by a couple of ppm and .1 or .2%. In other words I now had a "LEGAL" smog-compliant vehicle that was EMITTING 10X the pollutants as it did when imported (and if it had FAILED that last time-I would have reached the dollar limit for expenditures, and PASSED ANYWAY!!!) The Smog Tech Dinh Dinky Duch or whatever in Garden Grove then said "it would have passed anyway on this one, you met the cost requirements..." (See comment above regarding H&K/Benelli and the Referee...) It was about then I realized the SMOG system was more about Bureaucratic Perpetuation than cleaning up the air. And took steps accordingly since then. CTC if you need a complete 1972 Skyline GT or 240K Emissions System, PM me. I'm glad to help out. The Skyline GT will basically have the exact same SU steup that a 1972 240Z did, with an L24...but it will pass out the pipe with an L28 as well. BE GLAD you have a 1972! If you had a 73 or 74 you would be in the EGR range and that is a bear for compliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaZeS30 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Tony, so what is the actual requirement then if there is a cost limit? If you pipe clean, but fail visual, what are one's options for correction? If it's your own car, you'd think they'd let you spend as much money as needed to make it pass? I'm confused about this "cost limit" stuff? If it can't be fixed for a certain amount of money, it just automatically gets grand-fathered or do they just take your vehicle? I'm asking because I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Costs (and my information is out of date on this now since "I don't deal with it any longer") are dependent. In the case of a JDM engine, there is NO cost limit to replace the MISSING or REMOVED components. At the time I did mine, there was a limit of $90 or something like that you had to spend. But note I spent $300 for a f-ing orange 1973 Air Cleaner for the flat-top SU's from Ace Auto Salvage, your Z-Car Only Junk Yard off Valley Blvd and the 605... So there is no cost limit to get the needed parts on the car for the year required. Once you have all components in place and functioning, if the car then does not pass (and pray to gawd it doesn't fail as 'gross polluter') then there is a cost limit. It was most recently $300, this is what the 'Pass or Don't Pay' smog centers make money on---hey your 85 Buick failed, we'll replace the ECU (there isn't one on an 85 Buick...) it will cost $299 and then it will pass' big scam, but I digress... Anyway, you formerly had a limit when everything was in place and functioning. Once you hit that limit you passed and were allowed to drive the car anyway!!! What was that about 'cleaning the air' when you let people shell out money and then let them register the car anyway when it's dirty....yet refuse registration to cars which pipe clean out the tailpipe but fail a visual because of missing equipment??? If you pipe clean, and fail a visual then likely there is no cost limit to restore what was missing. It's one of the reasons older cars were exempted from inspections---nobody knew what they needed to have, there was no current training to let technicians know what was SUPPOSED to be in there. I mean, I've had guys look for a catalyst on my car and say things like 'that is a strange looking cat'---when in the door jamb of my 76 it clearly says "NON-CATALYST" and what they are looking at is a premuffler! Hell, my 78 280ZX Fairlady is a Federal Emissions Compliant vehicle. That means I don't need a catalyst. But the JDM cars came with one. And met tighter emissions requirements than Federal or CA for that year with the catalyst in place, and easily meets the federal requirements WITHOUT it. But where do I fit in this whole scheme when my car complies with federal mandates which say it doesn't NEED a catalyst but in JDM form it came with one and CA says it's a FEDERAL TEST???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayaapp2 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) Costs (and my information is out of date on this now since "I don't deal with it any longer") are dependent. In the case of a JDM engine, there is NO cost limit to replace the MISSING or REMOVED components. At the time I did mine, there was a limit of $90 or something like that you had to spend. But note I spent $300 for a f-ing orange 1973 Air Cleaner for the flat-top SU's from Ace Auto Salvage, your Z-Car Only Junk Yard off Valley Blvd and the 605... So there is no cost limit to get the needed parts on the car for the year required. Once you have all components in place and functioning, if the car then does not pass (and pray to gawd it doesn't fail as 'gross polluter') then there is a cost limit. It was most recently $300, this is what the 'Pass or Don't Pay' smog centers make money on---hey your 85 Buick failed, we'll replace the ECU (there isn't one on an 85 Buick...) it will cost $299 and then it will pass' big scam, but I digress... Anyway, you formerly had a limit when everything was in place and functioning. Once you hit that limit you passed and were allowed to drive the car anyway!!! What was that about 'cleaning the air' when you let people shell out money and then let them register the car anyway when it's dirty....yet refuse registration to cars which pipe clean out the tailpipe but fail a visual because of missing equipment??? If you pipe clean, and fail a visual then likely there is no cost limit to restore what was missing. It's one of the reasons older cars were exempted from inspections---nobody knew what they needed to have, there was no current training to let technicians know what was SUPPOSED to be in there. I mean, I've had guys look for a catalyst on my car and say things like 'that is a strange looking cat'---when in the door jamb of my 76 it clearly says "NON-CATALYST" and what they are looking at is a premuffler! Hell, my 78 280ZX Fairlady is a Federal Emissions Compliant vehicle. That means I don't need a catalyst. But the JDM cars came with one. And met tighter emissions requirements than Federal or CA for that year with the catalyst in place, and easily meets the federal requirements WITHOUT it. But where do I fit in this whole scheme when my car complies with federal mandates which say it doesn't NEED a catalyst but in JDM form it came with one and CA says it's a FEDERAL TEST???? Gotta love how that system works... Anyway the current info regarding cost limits and compliance are all in the "CAP" or Consumer Assistance Program papers. They are available at any local Smog shop(or should be) as well as local BAR office, and maybe DMV. You should be able to find those papers online as well. I dont believe they allow a maximum spendature and then cut you loose anyway anymore. Here is some basic info: Consumer Assistance Program basic info and IF you click HERE you will get the CAP Application with some info on it as well about the options available. You will have to do the rest of the research on your own(and its out there). Edited April 9, 2011 by rayaapp2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaZeS30 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Thanks guys, at least you're pointing me in the right direction! I've always thought smog regulations were a big scam, anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of clean air, but I think it's kind of retarded to pick on 10% of the population that does like to modify cars, when it doesn't make much of a difference. As far as I'm concerned, if you pass the actual EMISSIONS test, you should pass. Especially since we stopped using leaded gas a long time ago. Also, since California has done a pretty good job of destroying its domestic industry, not just through extant pollution regulations, but through taxation and other laws governing business they've pushed a lot of the pre-1980 industrial pollution out-of-state (or overseas). Which is why I laugh when these various agencies pat themselves on the back and say "look at what a good job we've done." In all honesty, I'd be less worried about inhaling what comes out of someone else's tail pipe and (especially in central California) more worried about breathing in airborne pesticides or drinking deliberately fluoridated water. But, I digress, that is not the topic of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 "or drinking deliberately fluoridated water" "Mandrake, our precious bodily fluids are being contaminated..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaZeS30 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I love that movie. I was just waiting for someone to chime in with that. "THERE'S NO FIGHTING IN HERE, THIS IS THE WAR-ROOM!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 No sense complaining about something you can't fix. It just brings everyone down. If you live in California there's a game that you have to play to get a HybridZ on the road. Its not a particularly tough game once you know the rules a do a little planning. And once you win (winning!) its pretty easy from then on and your HybridZ is worth more then another one that hasn't won (winning!). That's the Torpedo of Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Oh, how I can relate to that scenario (WINNING!) at this particular point in time... John, I have to agree. I have actually had gleeful calls from guys who are freshly from the Referee Station that start out with "I never believed what you said, but MAN THAT WAS EASY!" If you do the proper legwork before the conversion, it really is a very simple straightforward process. Now that Legal KA24 swap in a 510.... John, we need to talk some more when I see you later this week! In a good way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutantZ Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Does a motor swapped with all the smog equipment have to be a CA designated car? Meaning not a 49 state vehicle or does that not make a difference. Just wondering when sourcing a donor vehicle if I should bother with the out of state distributors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctc Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Does a motor swapped with all the smog equipment have to be a CA designated car? Meaning not a 49 state vehicle or does that not make a difference. Just wondering when sourcing a donor vehicle if I should bother with the out of state distributors. Per the Ref I am working with, the swap has to come from a CA emissions certified vehicle and/or be able to show the CA emissions part number (The ECU Part # for example) if you are making a 49 state car CA compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Waitaminit here, there is NO requirement for a US Model bought in the USA from a US Distributor to be made compliant to CA Specifications. I have a (three actually) NON-CATALYST S30's out back. I have to go to the Referee EVERY time, but I pass the tailpipe and that 49-State Compliance Sticker gets me the pass at the Referee. Now, if you are talking about having a 49 state car, and swapping in components technically you have to only comply with 49 state testing. But if you are using a Non-US engine, then you have to bring it up to CA specs (like my 73). Good luck finding a Non-CA car in California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon or Washington, though. The vast majority west of the rockies were CA-Spec. What you CAN NOT DO is take a chassis which was CA-Specification and swap in Federal Components. That is a No-No. I think that is what the Ref was referring to above. If you have a Federal Car to begin with, though....you don't HAVE to use CA spec parts when doing the swap. Chevy LUV's were the same way---in 1980 they had a Catalyst in CA, but in Michigan they did not. If you get a CA Chassis and swap in a Camaro V8 (it's done, and popular) then you need the catalysts on it. If you have a 1980 Federal Chassis you enter that B.S. grey area. Like JC says, "doing the legwork ahead of time" makes these things fly smoothly through the process. Just showing up without documents, photos, etc... and you will be in for a rough inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctc Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Waitaminit here, there is NO requirement for a US Model bought in the USA from a US Distributor to be made compliant to CA Specifications. I have a (three actually) NON-CATALYST S30's out back. I have to go to the Referee EVERY time, but I pass the tailpipe and that 49-State Compliance Sticker gets me the pass at the Referee. Now, if you are talking about having a 49 state car, and swapping in components technically you have to only comply with 49 state testing. But if you are using a Non-US engine, then you have to bring it up to CA specs (like my 73). Good luck finding a Non-CA car in California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon or Washington, though. The vast majority west of the rockies were CA-Spec. What you CAN NOT DO is take a chassis which was CA-Specification and swap in Federal Components. That is a No-No. I think that is what the Ref was referring to above. If you have a Federal Car to begin with, though....you don't HAVE to use CA spec parts when doing the swap. Chevy LUV's were the same way---in 1980 they had a Catalyst in CA, but in Michigan they did not. If you get a CA Chassis and swap in a Camaro V8 (it's done, and popular) then you need the catalysts on it. If you have a 1980 Federal Chassis you enter that B.S. grey area. Like JC says, "doing the legwork ahead of time" makes these things fly smoothly through the process. Just showing up without documents, photos, etc... and you will be in for a rough inspection. Tony, I am not being argumentative here and I am just passing along what the Ref told me in person. The way he explained it, and I am paraphrasing, if you have a 49 state car with an L28E and want to swap in a different engine, let's say L28ET, the L28ET has to be from a California compliant car, or be able to show the swapped L28ET has all the California Emission parts installed (the ECU P/N as an example). This qualifies as an engine swap and makes the car with the swapped engine California Compliant and the BAR issues a new sticker stating such. It must remain a CA car from then on! If you have a 49 state car with an L28E and are replacing it with another L28E, this is not technically an engine swap, it is a replacement and you can use any 49 state compliant L28E. As you say, there is a grey area with a non-CA car (federal or non-USDM) when it comes to swapping in different engines. Is the Ref mis-informed? I don't know. What I do know is that the guy that needs to pass my car told me to do X and that is what I will do. I don't start quoting regulations to CHP officers when they pull me over either. Yes officer, sign name, take ticket, fight in court or pay. Have a nice day. For anyone that is working through this process I would not stress enough the "doing the legwork ahead of time", including talking with the Ref. If you just show up the inspection is rough, or doesn't happen at all! Edited April 22, 2011 by ctc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) In my experience Tony's post is spot on here. Like in the story I shared earlier about my friend's CRX, when we swapped in USDM EFI and added a CAT, the ECU used was from a Del-Sol which was NOT a CA vehicle. Ref passed it just fine. But then again the owner was WORKING for the ref, and instead of putting "Honda B16 1.6 liter" or similar on the engine title of the new label, he put "Honda 1.6 Liter" on purpose, meaning that it really could be "any" 1.6 liter and be legal. The ref broke no laws, but it shows the power they hold if they want to be really nice or mean to you. I think we can all agree, happy ref, happy inspection. They're usually great people and it definitely pays to visit them ahead of time. But come to think of it. Can you actually prove a L28ET CA-ECU is actually a CA-ECU? I recall no serial number break down in the FSM or anywhere else telling information of how to identify the difference ECU's (like how the auto box ones are slightly different and such). Edited April 22, 2011 by Gollum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctc Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) In my experience Tony's post is spot on here. Like in the story I shared earlier about my friend's CRX, when we swapped in USDM EFI and added a CAT, the ECU used was from a Del-Sol which was NOT a CA vehicle. Ref passed it just fine. But then again the owner was WORKING for the ref, and instead of putting "Honda B16 1.6 liter" or similar on the engine title of the new label, he put "Honda 1.6 Liter" on purpose, meaning that it really could be "any" 1.6 liter and be legal. The ref broke no laws, but it shows the power they hold if they want to be really nice or mean to you. I think we can all agree, happy ref, happy inspection. They're usually great people and it definitely pays to visit them ahead of time. But come to think of it. Can you actually prove a L28ET CA-ECU is actually a CA-ECU? I recall no serial number break down in the FSM or anywhere else telling information of how to identify the difference ECU's (like how the auto box ones are slightly different and such). This Nissan Service Bulletin is the only documentation I know of that shows a Federal/California as well a Manual/Auto trans breakdown of ECU P/N's. NTB93-167.pdf Edited April 22, 2011 by ctc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutantZ Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Ok, so just to clarify (and hopefully not muddy the waters more)–if I am swapping in a motor from a '03 350z from Michigan(for example) into my California 260z, as long as I have all the emissions equipment from the 350z it should be ok. I'll check into swaps in more detail with the refs as the time gets closer, but just wanted to see if anyone knew offhand. Also, sorry for asking about all these swaps in the L6 forum, I found this thread searching around and didn't realize it was in this section. But at least I used the search function! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Yes, in that context "SWAP" would be correct, you have to use CA Spec Engines because it's a SWAP and not a 'replacement'... BUT, you still have that pesky NON-CATALYST sticker on a 49 state S30, and when that little thing exists it comes back to that pesky chassis component classification of the catalyst. Frankly they make it far more difficult in this respect than they need to do IMHO. There is a 49 state emissions spec, and a Cal Spec. If you have a Cal Chassis (easily determined by the absence of the NON CATALYST STICKER) then you pipe and visual to CA SPEC for the engine you install. If you have a Fed Chassis, then regardless of which engine you put in there, you should only be required to pass Fed Spec. The visual is a 50/50 proposition. That would make it very clear and woe be to the painter that destroys that NON-CATALYST sticker!!! They really should 'register' the VINS of vehicles who smog so that the next cycle they know it should only be tested to FED spec, and if someone tries to "Change" a car illegally it would be flagged from historical records. But that's what you get when you have a car guy with 154 I.Q. ruminating on the rules, and not some 75 I.Q. Forrest Gump BAR employee that got through school on the feel-good quota that year. But I digress into bitter commentary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I would love for them to check my ECU... it may LOOK like a fed spec computer, but therein lies the heart of MS1... Some Euro Countries check stuff like that, and it was from there that I got the inspiration. Sweden I think was where the guy first did it, and posted to the old MS List on his deeds. Now they have PNP kits with all the connectors for the stock harness, it makes it easier than in the past when you had to scrounge ECU's and hack the wiring harnesses to make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Ok, so just to clarify (and hopefully not muddy the waters more)–if I am swapping in a motor from a '03 350z from Michigan(for example) into my California 260z, as long as I have all the emissions equipment from the 350z it should be ok. I'll check into swaps in more detail with the refs as the time gets closer, but just wanted to see if anyone knew offhand. Also, sorry for asking about all these swaps in the L6 forum, I found this thread searching around and didn't realize it was in this section. But at least I used the search function! Nope, a CA Spec 260 will require CA Spec 350Z donor components. How you will quantify this is beyond me. This is where the 'legwork' comes in... I don't know exactly what would qualify a 260Z as a 'CA SPEC', and my bet is that it would be classified as a FED car coming into the state, in which case the Michigan Engine Swap might fly during initial inspection/smog. If the 260 currently has CA plates....fix that quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutantZ Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Thanks for the quick answer Tony. This all makes that EROD motor seem like a bargain in terms of all the headache of finding all the little piece you need just to be legal. In terms of your IQ observation, I think the ratio sounds about right. 1:2=50%. Only about 50% of it will make sense when it flows down the pike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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