Make a 240z safer.

[johnc]

Ya volvos are nice but not exactly my thing. Do you think adding a roll cage, harnesses, disk brakes, racing seats, and side nerfbars(if they exist) Will help to make the car at all safer? Any other recommendations?

 

No roll cage, roll bar only.

Schroth ASM 4 point harness will be good.

Real race seats (FIA certified) are good.

The car already has disc brakes and the stock brake system is fine if well maintained.

No on the side/door bars.

 

The #1 most important thing is to learn how to drive. Not just operate the car (which is what driver's ed, your parents, and the DMV only care about), but really learn how to drive a car.

[Tony D]

The character in deathproof seemed to make out alright.

 

My god, we've sunk to the ZC.C level of using fictional characters in movies as engineering models for real life...

 

In that case, I suggest we all go out looking for the Datsun Equivalent of 'Christine' as then any sh*tter that gets in our way better watch out because Arnie Cuntingham and his mean Dodge will run them down and survive anything without a scratch. And the auto-drive ability comes in handy when your drunk off your arse as well...

[Tony D]

Thank you very much for all of the respponses, the pictures and videos were nice too. I feel that i am still very much interested in the early z's and after reading your responses and further research I think a 280z (although I like the 240z more) with a light roll bar (with heavy padding) , 4 point harnesses,disc brakes,racing seats, and maybe some sort of side nerf bars? I am not exactly looking for a safe car, I am just trying to make an older car safer. Alex

 

The 1973 240Z has the same items noted in the list, it erroneously called or attributed to only 280Z's some of the features. Door beams started in 73, inertial reels on the seat belts started in 73, crash-rated bumpers above 2.5mph standard started in 73...

 

Anything on a 280Z is also on a 260Z, the earlier models having the same shock absorbers as the later cars, but with a lighter bumper structure.

 

Like John C said, there have been plenty of people with HARD crashes that walked away. Here is one where it was an offset-impact at 45+ mph, driver broke his collar bone where the three-point seat belt held him in the racing seat. No crumple zones? Think again! Not even an MSA SCCA-Legal Roll Bar behind the driver---that was slated for installation the following week! NOTHING! STOCK! Driver was unconcious from the impact, car went almost 3 feet in the air and bounced off the truck that hit him, spinning in mid-air. I was one car behind him when it happened. The gold truck behind him in the first photo is who hit him, coming from the RIGHT of the frame head-on offset. The Z basically pivoted mid-air in place where he got hit and ended up pointing to it's right as well (oriented from direction of first travel.) Another 240 went through this intersection 30 feet in front of him---that truck was HAULING and came over a rise QUICKLY! No brake action whatsoever. All stopping was done with energy dissipation from the collision. Actually a very neat study to examine...

 

 

Blow Up this photo and look closely at the GAUGE CLUSTER!

The Driver's hand SMASHED the dashboard, and took out the gauges!

He couldn't figure out how he had a fracture on his metacarpal.

That's how---found a week after the accident!

 

The Gold Truck is what hit him,

on the cross street. 4500# Versus 2200#,

simple Physics.

 

 

 

That Black Thing Embedded into the Z?

That's the entire energy-absorbing portion of the Toyota's

Bumper! The Z was NOT to be denied keeping the license

of 'The Truck That Hit Me!'

 

Probably the worst you can expect to have happen, in an EARLY Z-Car, and the driver was carted off with a broken collar bone. I have seen worse from larger vehicles with worse restraint systems. His head took out the driver's glass, and that is the suspect in his concussing/unconcious state. Side airbag may have mitigated that somewhat...but I have also seen a broken arm from it being across someone's chest when a steering wheel airbag deploys. The trick is: Don't Get Hit in the FIRST place!

 

Almost everything in the driveline was transferred to another 240 Chassis and is running to this day, put down 192HP at the MSA dyno day last April.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Tony D

[getoffmyinternet]

My god, we've sunk to the ZC.C level of using fictional characters in movies as engineering models for real life...

 

In that case, I suggest we all go out looking for the Datsun Equivalent of 'Christine' as then any sh*tter that gets in our way better watch out because Arnie Cuntingham and his mean Dodge will run them down and survive anything without a scratch. And the auto-drive ability comes in handy when your drunk off your arse as well...

 

 

My god, we've completely lost our sense of humor due to a personal vendetta against a perfect stranger over the internet.

[Tony D]

Put a lot of importance on yourself?

 

My comment about Christine is just as ludicrous (or valid, if you will.) Please keep your transferrence issues to yourself.

 

Edited November 18, 2010 by Tony D

[BLOZ UP]

You kind of have to wear a helmet and full harness with a cage for it to not kill you...

[asuly]

Thanks for the straight asnwer. Is there any way I can help build up some strength in the door/side area? Thanks

 

No roll cage, roll bar only.

Schroth ASM 4 point harness will be good.

Real race seats (FIA certified) are good.

The car already has disc brakes and the stock brake system is fine if well maintained.

No on the side/door bars.

 

The #1 most important thing is to learn how to drive. Not just operate the car (which is what driver's ed, your parents, and the DMV only care about), but really learn how to drive a car.

[asuly]

Not as bad as I expected for a 45 mph collision with a truck. The pictures are great thanks, trying to convince my parents that with some modifications this car can hold up just as well as any newer small car with airbags, at least I hope so.

 

 

The 1973 240Z has the same items noted in the list, it erroneously called or attributed to only 280Z's some of the features. Door beams started in 73, inertial reels on the seat belts started in 73, crash-rated bumpers above 2.5mph standard started in 73...

 

Anything on a 280Z is also on a 260Z, the earlier models having the same shock absorbers as the later cars, but with a lighter bumper structure.

 

Like John C said, there have been plenty of people with HARD crashes that walked away. Here is one where it was an offset-impact at 45+ mph, driver broke his collar bone where the three-point seat belt held him in the racing seat. No crumple zones? Think again! Not even an MSA SCCA-Legal Roll Bar behind the driver---that was slated for installation the following week! NOTHING! STOCK! Driver was unconcious from the impact, car went almost 3 feet in the air and bounced off the truck that hit him, spinning in mid-air. I was one car behind him when it happened. The gold truck behind him in the first photo is who hit him, coming from the RIGHT of the frame head-on offset. The Z basically pivoted mid-air in place where he got hit and ended up pointing to it's right as well (oriented from direction of first travel.) Another 240 went through this intersection 30 feet in front of him---that truck was HAULING and came over a rise QUICKLY! No brake action whatsoever. All stopping was done with energy dissipation from the collision. Actually a very neat study to examine...

 

 

Blow Up this photo and look closely at the GAUGE CLUSTER!

The Driver's hand SMASHED the dashboard, and took out the gauges!

He couldn't figure out how he had a fracture on his metacarpal.

That's how---found a week after the accident!

 

The Gold Truck is what hit him,

on the cross street. 4500# Versus 2200#,

simple Physics.

 

 

 

That Black Thing Embedded into the Z?

That's the entire energy-absorbing portion of the Toyota's

Bumper! The Z was NOT to be denied keeping the license

of 'The Truck That Hit Me!'

 

Probably the worst you can expect to have happen, in an EARLY Z-Car, and the driver was carted off with a broken collar bone. I have seen worse from larger vehicles with worse restraint systems. His head took out the driver's glass, and that is the suspect in his concussing/unconcious state. Side airbag may have mitigated that somewhat...but I have also seen a broken arm from it being across someone's chest when a steering wheel airbag deploys. The trick is: Don't Get Hit in the FIRST place!

 

Almost everything in the driveline was transferred to another 240 Chassis and is running to this day, put down 192HP at the MSA dyno day last April.

[Tony D]

Side impact intrusion is pretty much a force-versus-mass equation. The bigger thing that hits you, the further in the side of the car it will progress...

 

That goes with a 2010 Kia, or a 1973-78 Z-Car (or earlier)...

 

Getting hit quartering away will be different than a full-front hit. Quartering will intrude futher than full on frontal.

 

If they are convinced the reason to buy a car is 'safe construction' bring up the fact that avoiding accidents is the best safety device of them all.

 

A small car is at a disadvantage to a larger car, period. Force-vs-Mass. You can't cheat physics. A safe car is the largest one you can get.

[Leon]

Side impact intrusion is pretty much a force-versus-mass equation. The bigger thing that hits you, the further in the side of the car it will progress...

 

That goes with a 2010 Kia, or a 1973-78 Z-Car (or earlier)...

 

Getting hit quartering away will be different than a full-front hit. Quartering will intrude futher than full on frontal.

 

If they are convinced the reason to buy a car is 'safe construction' bring up the fact that avoiding accidents is the best safety device of them all.

 

A small car is at a disadvantage to a larger car, period. Force-vs-Mass. You can't cheat physics. A safe car is the largest one you can get.

 

Going off of "avoiding accidents is the best safety device of them all" I would say that a safe car is not the largest you can get. Longer braking distances, slower steering response, and larger girth will tend to get you into more accidents.

[rjstcroix]

Hey,

 

Airbags we're invented for a**holes who don't wear seat belts. How many race cars do you see with airbags? Race cars obviously have a driver centric safety design. To all the morons who don't buckle up on our public roadways, in the ditch, ejected from your car and injured in a "minor" roll over, Darwin thanks you again for attempting to prove his theory.

 

Our crew in #405 at this year's Targa Newfoundland walked away from the impact. Navigator had a tender ankle and a hangnail he was complaining about (haha, Sorry BJ)...otherwise everything was fine. Funny enough, driver had a minor back problem before the incident that went away after the impact. Expensive chiropractic treatment. This treatment is not recommended by 10 out of 10 Chiropractors.

 

Like others have said, learn how to drive not just operate a car. It will be your biggest investment in safety and your life. Collision avoidance is the key.

 

Oh and buckle up dammit.

 

Regards,

 

RSC

[Pharaohabq]

Wow Tony, that's a hella hit.

 

The S30's are pretty good front and rear. But side impacts are by far your most dangerous, being that you have so much less metal between you and the impactor vehicle. S30 Doors are pretty thin, so really what can be done to improve the safety? How about a 3"x.5 in thick steel strap welded in place of the metal at the inside top of the door. This should clear the window and still allow the door interior to fit. I was thinking also to have a catch plate similar to the Z32's doors bolted to the open end to tie is back to the frame at the "B" pillar. of course reinforcing would help. If might be fun to have some wreaked rusted out Z bodies tested for impacts. Wouldn't be official, but might help add protection.

 

That being said, decent seats, and harnesses can go a long ways.

[johnc]

Some of you guys don't understand the forces in an impact and how they affect the human body. You're thinking that making a driver's door as strong as possible will help in a side impact. That's not the current thinking in crash safety.

 

All modern cars (post 1995) have something called a Push Block designed into the outside floor of the car. Its purpose is to push the seat towards the center of the car in a side impact. It deforms with the rocker panel and attenuates the impact force while moving the seated person away from the point of impact. The cars are designed with an impact crush zone that includes the transmission tunnel. The crush zone is not just the distance between your elbow and the outer door skin.

 

The S30 chassis has an early version of that idea. Look at the seat mounts - the rears are separated by only the floor pan and the front has a deformable structure design. Look at the transmission mount (especially the later version). Its designed to fold down in a impact and pull the transmission down with it. The side impact crush zone in an S30 is the distance from your elbow to the door skin and the thickness of the transmission tunnel.

[UofA_ZCar]

The driver is a big part of the safety of the vehicle too. If your an aggressive driver and put yourself in situations where you could get in an accident (running red lights, speeding, etc., etc.) then any vehicle can be dangerous even if it is more modern and has a lot more safety features. If your a defensive driver and try to do everything you can to avoid an accident you are more likely to be safe and survive a crash. Sure their are certain scenarios where its out of your control and there isn't much you can do about that except always be alert and cautious. People have died in modern vehicles also just because they have airbags and all the extra stuff doesn't always mean they are safer, People have been killed because of airbags as well.

 

 

+1

 

 

My personal opinion is that being 16 you are probably better off getting a late 90's early 2000's corolla or sentra as your daily driver. Relatively safe, low, maintenance costs, lower insurance rate, and pretty good MPG. Then just pick up an S30 as a project car/weekend driver.

[DrSideways]

Ya volvos are nice but not exactly my thing. Do you think adding a roll cage, harnesses, disk brakes, racing seats, and side nerfbars(if they exist) Will help to make the car at all safer? Any other recommendations?

 

A racing harness for the street is not the hot tip. Just watch what you are doing while driving as others have said.

 

You might try and enroll in a teen driving clinic too. The loose nut behind the wheel affects car performance more than almost anything else.

 

Alan

Edited November 19, 2010 by DrSideways

[AkumaNoZeta]

My personal opinion is that being 16 you are probably better off getting a late 90's early 2000's corolla or sentra as your daily driver. Relatively safe, low, maintenance costs, lower insurance rate, and pretty good MPG. Then just pick up an S30 as a project car/weekend driver.

 

I double that. My S30 is currently both my daily driver and my project car and it's a bad idea to have it that way. I'm afraid to do any major work on it on the weekends (I get two 4 day weekends from work a month) because I can't guarantee that the car will be drivable by Monday morning. I've been thinking about getting an old bike or scooter to solve this problem but money is hard to get these days.

 

I had a Celica that I learned how to drive in (put it into the ditch about 11 times before I traded it for a Mustang) and now that I'm driving my Z I have gotten into the safest habits, the best one being not driving on the roads during day-time because there's a lot of stupid drivers out there. That's also the reason why I stay far, far away from other people on the roads because even though I may know that "I can make it" I just don't know how the people in the other cars will react if I go for it, my brother is impatient and hates riding with me because of that.

[19762802+2]

Wow Tony, that's a hella hit.

 

The S30's are pretty good front and rear. But side impacts are by far your most dangerous, being that you have so much less metal between you and the impactor vehicle. S30 Doors are pretty thin, so really what can be done to improve the safety?

 

The s30's doors aren't as thin as you think, I have seen a lot of modern cars with about the same width doors. Plus My 73' Super beetle has got it beat by inches when it comes to how "thin" the door is. IMO there wouldn't have to be so much safety equipment in cars today if people were better drivers and had to go through more training and have to do more to pass the drivers test like lets say when My dad was a kid, There would be a lot less problems with safety.

[Tony D]

I have to agree with John C on this one---the wrong thinking is to reinforce the door.

What you need to do is stop the acceleration zone between the door and your body. Note all the interior panels are SO MUCH CLOSER to you now in 'bigger' cars? A Linclon Town Car has me rubbing my knee on the dash bolsters and door, where I'm free to flop all over in the Z.

 

That's what gets you injured.

 

Volvo knew long ago that putting cardboard in the doors gave a deformable structure to spread out the time of impact and transfer of force to anything soft that impacts them in an impact. The best thing you can do is put dense foam on the inner door panels to a point that you don't have more than 1" of movement of any extremity from the door.

 

When you are hit, you only accelerate for that inch, then start compressing the foam and dissipating energy. You feel a large "push" when you get hit, not a "BANG-WHAP-SH*T!" response like in the car without padding.

 

Most of the internal panels these days move the deformable pressboard and foam very close to you so when you are hit, you deform the panel and stop your limbs from accelerating.

 

Like this photo, the acceleration from the steering wheel to the dashboard allowed for a cracked metacarpal. Had that been a pre-1967 dashboard, it would have been a broken wrist...or worse!

 

I agree what John C says: the forces are being misunderstood and the approach to mitigating them is totally wrong. You do not need any more stregnth than a 73 or later door has---it transfers side impact to the rest of the chassis, preventing spot-intrusion of the door to the driver. What needs to be done to 'improve' the survivability is get proper dense foam padding on the door panels that will cushion you when this happens. That is the #1 thing to do. The transfer of energy from door to A and B pillar is already accomplished with the latch mechanisim and door bar already in place. The 6/76 an later internal latches are slightly better at this than the earlier, but it's a minute amount.

 

What you need is elimination of hard impact points, filling of space to prevent limb acceleration, and putting deformable structures in place to spread out the force of impact over a second, instead of a millisecond.

 

There was a group of guys with Mercedes that were human crash dummies---they would crash the cars into things. They would all place pillows and foam so they couldn't move hardly at all save to move the wheel to steer into the target. Belted and thusly isolated, they rarely got injured, and they were impacting at HYPER velocities!

[ModernS30]

Simple solution. Make cars less safe, people care more, people drive more careful. People who fail to do this shouldn't be driving, they get in an accident, hurt themselves, they can no longer drive. Problem solved.

[mxgsfmdpx]

Simple solution. Make cars less safe, people care more, people drive more careful. People who fail to do this shouldn't be driving, they get in an accident, hurt themselves, they can no longer drive. Problem solved.

 

I don't think ignoring the technology we've developed to make cars safe is the right answer...

 

Thinking along these line though, another option could be finding a way to monitor peoples driving, other than police officers and cameras. But deep down do we really want that? Sacrifice freedom for safety. My guess is people would say no.

Edited November 19, 2010 by mxgsfmdpx