zeeboost Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 These are tempting, but from everything I've read it sounds like I should go for the 1 7/8" primaries. Still researching... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistafosta Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 These are tempting, but from everything I've read it sounds like I should go for the 1 7/8" primaries. Still researching... I totally read 1 7/8" not 1.75 Is there going to be an option to get this in 1 7/8? 1 3/4 is a bit small for my 402/blower setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 tuff z Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 i don't know enough about engines to answer your question. i'll call the shop that will build the headers and ask them their opinion and post in the thread for you. I totally read 1 7/8" not 1.75 Is there going to be an option to get this in 1 7/8? 1 3/4 is a bit small for my 402/blower setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullbound Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Please add me to the list for 1 set with the vb option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litman Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) only 5 more! Edited March 26, 2011 by Litman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 tuff z Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 nullbd, will get you added shortly [need the admins to do it]. spoke with builder today regarding primary sizing. here are his thoughts based on 7 years of building, tuning and personal preference. rwhp under mid 400's, cubic inches under 402, supercharged or turbo'd, 1 3/4 ok. over the above he'd suggest 1 7/8, and good for low 900's to the rear wheels. any larger then you lose torque. cost for the 1 7/8 around $350 additional, if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistafosta Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 nullbd, will get you added shortly [need the admins to do it]. spoke with builder today regarding primary sizing. here are his thoughts based on 7 years of building, tuning and personal preference. rwhp under mid 400's, cubic inches under 402, supercharged or turbo'd, 1 3/4 ok. over the above he'd suggest 1 7/8, and good for low 900's to the rear wheels. any larger then you lose torque. cost for the 1 7/8 around $350 additional, if anyone is interested. Damn, my motor currently makes 700rwhp and will be making more soon. An extra $350 is painful. Any package price for getting all the options? hahaha I'll decide which set I want when we get to the order phase. I may just sit with 1 3/4 and deal with the small power loss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeboost Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 nullbd, will get you added shortly [need the admins to do it]. spoke with builder today regarding primary sizing. here are his thoughts based on 7 years of building, tuning and personal preference. rwhp under mid 400's, cubic inches under 402, supercharged or turbo'd, 1 3/4 ok. over the above he'd suggest 1 7/8, and good for low 900's to the rear wheels. any larger then you lose torque. cost for the 1 7/8 around $350 additional, if anyone is interested. Ouch...that's a pretty penny for an extra 1/8" diameter. What if everyone agreed on 1 7/8" instead...would they still cost an extra $350 or would they just cost the original $825. Reason being, I've read several 1 3/4" vs 1 7/8" debates on the lsx forums. The general consensus is that given a choice between the two, the 7/8" will always be a better choice b/c you don't lose any power and will support current or future mods better than the 3/4. The only dyno graph I could find was where someone changed out his 3/4" for 7/8" and changed his Y-pipe out. It's attached at the bottom, and blue curve is obviously the new setup with the 1 7/8" headers. ALSO, a speed shop took a stock ls1 (with a FAST intake) that did their own dyno comparison between the two header sizes and found that the 1 7/8" was either equal in power or made more than the 1 5/8" in all RPM ranges. Here's what was said: "The very first dyno testing we did compared header primaries & power output from 3000 to 6000rpm. The base engine was completely stock 01 engine with only a Fast intake installed. We dyno tested both the Pacesetter 1 3/4" coated long tubes & the TSP 1 7/8" long tube headers. The goal was to see how the larger primaries would effect power on a basically stock engine. To my suprise the 1 7/8" headers made a considerable amount more power than the 1 3/4" headers! Power output was virtually identical untiL 4800 rpm when the 1 7/8" headers began to outpower the smaller 1 3/4" primaries. The 1 7/8" headers made a peak hp of 414.x hp & 421lb ft while the 1 3/4" headers made 408hp & 419 lb ft of torque. While this isn't a huge difference, it definately shows that even on a basically stock car the larger headers are still a good investment! Power under the 4800rpm point was virtually identical! Infact the 3000 rpm numbers were 209hp 366 tq from the 1 3/4" headers & 209hp 359.9 tq! Both dyno runs were backed up several times & the combos used very similar air fuels & locked in timing at 28 degrees. I thought this was a pretty cool comparision, because the common thought is the 1 7/8" headers is just overkill on anything smaller than stroker setups. This is apparently not the case...." The point I'm getting at is I think it would benefit the HBZ community more to make the run for 1 7/8" headers rather than the 1 3/4". I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, and I do appreciate that people are taking initiative here to get these done (much better than custom, which is what I was planning on), but if the price would be closer to the 1 3/4" then I think more people would opt for the 7/8". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUNNY Z Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ok, so ask yourself this : Is 6 horsepower and 3 ft lbs of torque worth $350? In my opinion, that's money better spent elsewhere. You did also state that he changed his Y pipe, which could more than accommodate for the increased hp/tq numbers. my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alainburon Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Ok, so ask yourself this : Is 6 horsepower and 3 ft lbs of torque worth $350? In my opinion, that's money better spent elsewhere. You did also state that he changed his Y pipe, which could more than accommodate for the increased hp/tq numbers. my .02 I could not have put it any better myself. I'm ok with 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 if everyone decides to go that route. I have 1 3/4 on my LS7 Z06 and can't complain at all, I can get to my plugs without any issues and don't have clearance problems. My friend choose the 1 7/8 on the same car and his headers hit the underside of the car sometimes when idling due to clearance issues. Pretty anoying when he spent $1600 on a set of longtubes. Like the article says the horsepower numbers are identical untill over 4800 rpm and honestly for how long do most cars stay over 4800 rpm unless its a drag car. I think a lot of people get sucked into numbers and loose touch of fuctionality on the street. Anyways I'm in either way, just wanted to share my opinion. Edited March 28, 2011 by alainburon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 tuff z Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 read numerous lsx related posts from various websites [which a google search provided] this weekend discussing the 1 ¾ vs. 1 ⅞ primary tube battle. old discussion, repeatedly hashed back and forth-there is a ton of information out there and not all of it fact based. in a perfect z world, we would test both size headers with identical exhaust on the same car. then on various engine configurations [greater displacement, heads, cam, turbo & supercharged]. unfortunately budget prevents us from doing this-hence the draw to a group buy! spoke with the builder again this morning and asked him specifically about [the majority of us on the] thread and what he felt [in his experience] would provide the best ‘fit’-with room to ‘grow’ [think upgrades like; throttle body, intake, heads, cam, etc.]. he responded saying 1 ¾. he then told me about an lsx vette they built which is a drag car that consistently runs 10’s, ~800 rwhp supercharged and runs 1 ¾’s with a dual 3†exhaust and that if the owner thought he could go faster would have gone to the 1 ⅞’s. i then asked if, for my engine [2001 ls1, no; ac, cats or ps], ported throttle body and a mild street tune-330 rwhp, 360 rwtq, would i be restricted with 1 ¾ if i were to later upgrade with; cam/tb/intake? he said no. good enough for me. like i stated initially, if we had fat budget then extensive testing could be performed and we could then determine best application for our lsx z’s. of course, if that was the case [$$$$] then we would all have our own built to perfectly meet our specific z’s! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeboost Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ok, so ask yourself this : Is 6 horsepower and 3 ft lbs of torque worth $350? In my opinion, that's money better spent elsewhere. You did also state that he changed his Y pipe, which could more than accommodate for the increased hp/tq numbers. my .02 True, but I hardly think the Y-pipe alone can be responsible for that much of an increase. I agree completely the cost vs marginal gains argument...however that was also for a stock engine with no modifications. Even something simple such as a head / cam swap should yield better results. I was also inquiring if the 1 7/8" could be had at a cheaper cost if the group buy was switched to those primaries instead (I'm guessing the price was $350 there due to it being an option, instead of the standard production), because like you said an extra $350 is a little hard to swallow for the primary increase. I could not have put it any better myself. I'm ok with 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 if everyone decides to go that route. I have 1 3/4 on my LS7 Z06 and can't complain at all, I can get to my plugs without any issues and don't have clearance problems. My friend choose the 1 7/8 on the same car and his headers hit the underside of the car sometimes when idling due to clearance issues. Pretty anoying when he spent $1600 on a set of longtubes. Like the article says the horsepower numbers are identical untill over 4800 rpm and honestly for how long do most cars stay over 4800 rpm unless its a drag car. I think a lot of people get sucked into numbers and loose touch of fuctionality on the street. Anyways I'm in either way, just wanted to share my opinion. Most people opt for the proper long tube headers to maximize power under WOT, and I would assume that in WOT situations most people shift after 4800rpms. People in this group buy want to purchase these in the interests of more power. Shorties are already available for our cars - if horsepower and optimized WOT performance isn't a priority to them, I'd imagine most people would just stick with what's already on the market and much cheaper than longtubes. Driveability is another factor - unfortunately I could not find any hard, concrete data (again, because the main interest is for WOT application). read numerous lsx related posts from various websites [which a google search provided] this weekend discussing the 1 ¾ vs. 1 ⅞ primary tube battle. old discussion, repeatedly hashed back and forth-there is a ton of information out there and not all of it fact based. in a perfect z world, we would test both size headers with identical exhaust on the same car. then on various engine configurations [greater displacement, heads, cam, turbo & supercharged]. unfortunately budget prevents us from doing this-hence the draw to a group buy! spoke with the builder again this morning and asked him specifically about [the majority of us on the] thread and what he felt [in his experience] would provide the best ‘fit’-with room to ‘grow’ [think upgrades like; throttle body, intake, heads, cam, etc.]. he responded saying 1 ¾. he then told me about an lsx vette they built which is a drag car that consistently runs 10’s, ~800 rwhp supercharged and runs 1 ¾’s with a dual 3†exhaust and that if the owner thought he could go faster would have gone to the 1 ⅞’s. i then asked if, for my engine [2001 ls1, no; ac, cats or ps], ported throttle body and a mild street tune-330 rwhp, 360 rwtq, would i be restricted with 1 ¾ if i were to later upgrade with; cam/tb/intake? he said no. good enough for me. like i stated initially, if we had fat budget then extensive testing could be performed and we could then determine best application for our lsx z’s. of course, if that was the case [$$$$] then we would all have our own built to perfectly meet our specific z’s! Reading those debates can get exhausting, huh? I understand that we only have limited data to work with on the lsx builds (SBCs are a different story). And I would agree that 1 3/4" headers wouldn't cause a restriction...but the flow may not be optimized, and there could be more power on tap to take advantage of that. The only data I found supports that. I have no doubt that they have a drag vette with 800rwhp running the smaller primaries. My question is how much more could it have with the larger primaries? I don't expect them to do any testing with it, but it seems pretty likely that with a supercharged lsx, more power could be on tap using 1 7/8". I would've rather heard that the owner "didn't" make any more power with 1 7/8" headers instead of the owner didn't "think" he could make any more power. I've read on the lsx forums that the vette owners are pretty loyal to the 1 3/4" headers and typically defend them under any circumstance. No clue on the reasoning as I have not searched the corvette forums to confirm this. The lsx forums seemed unbiased enough to gather information from there. If most of you are satisfied with the 1 3/4" headers, that's fine. My argument was that since the point of these headers are to maximize power output, since these guys can clearly weld up a 1 7/8" set, and since the only data I've found points to 1 7/8" primaries yielding better results, that if the cost could be equal or at least really close to the 1 3/4" headers then it would be in the best interest of the group buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistafosta Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I will settle for 1 3/4" headers if I have to. They are better than the shorties currently setup on my car. I would much prefer the 1 7/8" ones though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverenough Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I would like to get in on this. One set with vb option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilC Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 We are getting closer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 tuff z Posted April 1, 2011 Author Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) all, one detail i overlooked is shipping-my apologies on this. spoke with the shop today, they estimate shipping will be no more than $35 and use fedex. regarding options [v-bands & high speed merge collectors] you are NOT locked into them until you place your order with the shop. i listed desired options as a way to gauge [for the builder] what the totals will look like. you can always add or delete when the time comes. we have 12 currently on the list, just 3 more and we begin the prototype build-we are soooo close! ! Edited April 1, 2011 by 1 tuff z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzeal Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Well, I've been sucked into the long tube headers vortex. I tried being rational, sittin' here with my perfectly good set of Sanderson shorties, but, resistance is futile!, the price is too good! Thank you David!!! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 tuff z Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) welcome to the club steve, i'll have you added to the list shortly-#13. only 2 more and we begin prototype production! i pm'd all the members from the other thread so they are aware of this thread and have my fingers crossed we can add 2 more shortly. keep in mind that we can and will continue to add people to the group buy [gb] list [which will get you the gp by pricing] until the prototypes are complete and we're ready to begin production. at that time, when all on the list are given the builders info, the gb is then closed and anyone thereafter can purchase the headers, just not at the gb pricing. Well, I've been sucked into the long tube headers vortex. I tried being rational, sittin' here with my perfectly good set of Sanderson shorties, but, resistance is futile!, the price is too good! Thank you David!!! Steve Edited April 7, 2011 by 1 tuff z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeboost Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yeah, I'll bite. I was planning on having custom headers made which probably would've surpassed the $1k mark anyways. Put me down for 1 set at 1 7/8 primaries. Not sure on the vband connectors yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iHeartTouge Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I think I can swing this, count me in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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