cobramatt Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Matt, If the splitter is effective, you think you could get your guys to make a copy of yours? We have the same front end so fitment should be close. Of course. I will say that the splitter is not perfectly symetrical. I'm sure your aware that even though we have the same front end the bend and fitment is not exact. I'm sure that it would work and be very close but I had to make that decision when we made this one. Did I want to make it symetrical or did I want it to fit this exact front end perfectly. What I need to do is simply make a cardboard template of it and send it to you. You tape it up under the front of your car and see how close we are. The trimming of the air dam is also very important as originally it sweeps down in the middle by design. Trimming also raises the level of clearance to make it drivable. Look at post #202 and see how we trimmed it level. They say your aero package is just about as best it can get when you cant jack the car up and it wont go in the trailer and I dont have a million dollar hauler with a flat gate lift. The fact that I have already had one made and the setup fee (template/mold) is done the cost would be reflective of that. First let me see this weekend exactly how it works. This is our first attempt and even though I have high expectations I want this to really be 100% functional as well as look great. Matt Edited August 30, 2012 by cobramatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Matt, Thanks for the reply. I've been considering making a front undertray but having a premade one that would bolt on, even with a general level of fit, would be great. I'll keep an eye out for updates on performance and get in touch with you. To level my air dam, I used a NASCAR urethane air dam rub strip. It is slightly adjustable, and I don't ahve to worry about knocking the paint off the bottom of the air dam. The gloss black also looks nice against the orange paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) I was waiting for your comments and I mean that in a good way. As you know more than most, this is new ground and I want to try some different things to try and acheive the best results given our benchmark. I think this is a good start and with the addition of the rear wing, I am testing on track Saturday. I am also having another professional driver do laps in the car so we can compare notes and data from the AIM system. The data aquisition system is going to play such an important role in that it shows exactly what is going on and comparing it to the data that we have without the aero will show our gains...........or losses. I'm glad I have your confidence. Only wish I had more of your ability to get things done, rather than just theorize about them. Another thing I noticed in taking a closer look is that you don't appear to have very much lip hanging out in front of the airdam there. Looks like maybe 2". You might have to lengthen the splitter to get the downforce necessary to balance a wing in back. Speaking of which, what wing are you running? I've been looking at Kognition. They seem like good value for money, and G Stream looks good too. My understanding is Kognition uses old F1 profiles. Simon McBeath makes some nice wings too through the Wing Shop, but he's in England and his stuff is more expensive. Whatever wing you go with, I'd tie it into the frame rails down below and not just bolt it to the hatch. Your car is too fast to half ass it. Edited August 30, 2012 by JMortensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 I'm glad I have your confidence. Only wish I had more of your ability to get things done, rather than just theorize about them. Another thing I noticed in taking a closer look is that you don't appear to have very much lip hanging out in front of the airdam there. Looks like maybe 2". You might have to lengthen the splitter to get the downforce necessary to balance a wing in back. Speaking of which, what wing are you running? I've been looking at Kognition. They seem like good value for money, and G Stream looks good too. My understanding is Kognition uses old F1 profiles. Simon McBeath makes some nice wings too through the Wing Shop, but he's in England and his stuff is more expensive. Whatever wing you go with, I'd tie it into the frame rails down below and not just bolt it to the hatch. Your car is too fast to half ass it. We have studied the effect of the lip on the splitter on our corvettes. Here is the skinny. When you have a 2" lip, like the one on the Z you get great downforce and you can still get it in the trailer without having to turn the shocks 6 times and put pucks in the springs or take the nose off the car. A 4" splitter works better but you cant get in in our out of the trailer without removing the whole nose piece. When we race I have a pit crew with me and they assist me greatly with everything possible. The majority of the time I will take a car to the track with me my tool box and a trailer. I have to try and make things practical. If we were running in a professional series and had the $$$ from major sponsors and all that jazz.........you get the picture. I am starting with a wing that we had on the back of a World Challege Corvette. It is a 60 inch Carbon Fiber static dyhedrial wing. I've attached some pictures. The wing does have end plates, their just not attached in the picture. I just laid it up and took a crappy shot of it. It is actually a very nice wing. The size is just right as the width of the car is comparable. Ive attached a few pictures, probably prematurely, to show how the frame for the uprights are being developed. What we are doing, as the pictures show, the chromoly supports that will be welded to the frame rails, they will protrude from the holes in the hatch, see picture. There are some small billet attachments that the wing will attach via heavy duty billet pins. The wing and uprights are mounted via bolts to the hatch and by removing the pins you can open the hatch for access. This is actually going to be very sturdy, obviously it has to be. When we build a splitter or wing our rule is that you have to be able to stand on it for it to work. The front splitter passes the test as it can support my weight. The wing should but...........like I said these pictures are probably premature. I just wanted to show what we were attempting to do. I will be removing the three piece IMSA tail and I am trying to find just a little 1" lip that fits on some other car and I can retrofit to the back of the Z. (Any ideas would be welcome), I need something to keep the air from tumbeling behind the car. My wind tunnel guys know exactly what we need but we just dont have enough time before this weekend to get it. The three piece IMSA tail has served me well and more than likely I will sell it for a resonable price. Let me know if there is anybody intersted. As well I have a widebody YZ race car front end with the quick release air dam. I had the fiberglass all re inforced so it is very strong. Since you can still buy these brand new, remember mine have been fitted and will go slightly cheaper. I also have a set of rear IMSA flares still in the box. These are from the Frizelle Z molds. I was going to use them but had already figured backspacing on the CCW's. I really dont want to buy 8 more CCW's to change the offset. They are from Brian at z car customs. All for now, This is getting interesting. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 You might just do a smaller commonly available spoilers like the BRE, the 5.25" tall one, etc to see if you can tell the difference. Lots of race cars use a spoiler under a wing, Daytona prototypes, ALMS, etc. There was a guy on a Porsche forum who ran a duck tail under a spoiler and did yarn tuft testing and showed that the airflow was pretty laminar in the area of the wing (wing not installed during test). His wing was pretty high though. I had the idea of a slotted piece of Lexan that bolted to the trailing edge of the hatch like a Gurney that you could slide up or down to vary the effect (I know I've seen this on race cars but I can't remember where), but you can't go really big with that because the hatch edge won't take a lot of pressure. Maybe if you reinforced the lip you could go bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 You might just do a smaller commonly available spoilers like the BRE, the 5.25" tall one, etc to see if you can tell the difference. Lots of race cars use a spoiler under a wing, Daytona prototypes, ALMS, etc. There was a guy on a Porsche forum who ran a duck tail under a spoiler and did yarn tuft testing and showed that the airflow was pretty laminar in the area of the wing (wing not installed during test). His wing was pretty high though. I had the idea of a slotted piece of Lexan that bolted to the trailing edge of the hatch like a Gurney that you could slide up or down to vary the effect (I know I've seen this on race cars but I can't remember where), but you can't go really big with that because the hatch edge won't take a lot of pressure. Maybe if you reinforced the lip you could go bigger. Its always nice to race for a shop that has their own machine shop and cnc machine on site as well as a mechanical engineer to input the design into the machine. Magically out pops a shiny new upright. As you can see the wing is taking shape. Tomorrow we will install end plates and the pin system to secure the wing when the hatch is closed. I gotta say..........Damn. I also like when a project takes shape that I had very little to do with besides the original concept. Letting people do their jobs is a wonderful thing and for a control freak like me it is rare. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 A few more to give perspective and show how we tied into the frame rail. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) THAT is what I wanted to see... I could NOT for the life of me make my wing "stable" and "safe" without going thru the hatch to the floor, so I ditched it. Will be interested in seeing how yours performs. I'm sure that high up in the clean air, it'll provide mega-downforce. You may need Cannards up front to help spread the frontal "grab". We should think about another windtunnel test to see how several of our "wilder" designs flow! Mike Edited August 31, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 THAT is what I wanted to see... I could NOT for the life of me make my wing "stable" and "safe" without going thru the hatch to the floor, so I ditched it. Will be interested in seeing how yours performs. I'm sure that high up in the clean air, it'll provide mega-downforce. You may need Cannards up front to help spread the frontal "grab". We should think about another windtunnel test to see how several of our "wilder" designs flow! Mike I have the Carbon Fiber dive planes just dont have time before Sat. to put them on. I'll gather data without them and then next week with them. This might be a viable way to secure the wing to the frame rail and it not resrict the operation of the hatch. At least not a major operation to open and close it. I'll let you know how it goes. I have to be very careful as I don't want to push too hard, like I did a few weeks ago, testing the envelope of the new aero. BABY steps are difficult for me. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 I dont know what to say.............................Thats sick. I know I am bias but after racing and owning z's for 30 years and having a vision for this build some time ago, I gotta say, that's the best lookin Z I've ever seen. I'm wondering if Grassroots or a similar magazine would want to do an article on the Ultimate Track Z. Anybody know anybody in the Biz that would be interested??? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Good lord that is awesome. oOo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkleDick Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I never get tired of these updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) I'm wondering if the combo of the two isn't going to cause you some problems up front man. Seriously. Hope it turns out well. There was a comment made earlier about the extension of the lip and it not being that long. I know I keep going back to porsches as a comparison, but I think it adds validity to what I'm saying... On my new to me GT3 the lip is tiny. The rear wing angle is adjustable. Adjusting the wing pitch by 4 degrees you can get by with the small front lip. Adding the 8 degree shim for the rear wing instead of the 4 degree shim and then adding the GT3 CupCar Lip provides reasonable balance. The difference in the two lips is very very small, but effective. So by adding those cannards later, you may have more than enough balance. Can't wait for your updates! Edited September 2, 2012 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 you mentioned getting rid of the 3 piece in the back for a small 1" lip. the bmw m3 uses one and we have the wing on top of that for the cars at the shop. i have seen them on fleabay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-2003-BMW-E39-528I-540I-M5-TRUNK-LIP-SPOILER-ABS-/380466746530?fits=Year:2001&hash=item589595d4a2&item=380466746530&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr just an idea jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker81 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I just read every single page of this and all i can say is...WOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 you mentioned getting rid of the 3 piece in the back for a small 1" lip. the bmw m3 uses one and we have the wing on top of that for the cars at the shop. i have seen them on fleabay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-2003-BMW-E39-528I-540I-M5-TRUNK-LIP-SPOILER-ABS-/380466746530?fits=Year:2001&hash=item589595d4a2&item=380466746530&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr just an idea jimbo This is what I'm talking about. Just enough of a 1" lip "Gurney" to extend the airflow enough when exiting the car and not too large under the wing to disturb the airflow there. BALANCE IS THE KEY. After a perfect full day at the track with some of my NASA buddies I am so tired I dont have it in me to review all the data tonight. I'm wiped out. I will say that I did change the angle one degree to create a little more in the rear. I unhooked the rear sway bar as well to try and correct some understeer issues. Its just going to take time to get it worked out. We were quick but she's always been quick, I was happy with the front downforce but think we need to spend a lot more time on the rear. I was expecting huge results the first day out, as usual, and didn't really get what I'm after. Let me also point out that AMP is a very technical track and not a high speed track like we run most of the time. Its great for practice but I'm not going to set the car up for it. I might unhook the sway bar to see what happens but thats about it. I'm not a patient man and this is going to really take some time. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 i am glad to see you make some strides in clifton's old car. it was sure fun to watch it while he still had it out here. that thing was fast and everyone commented on it. love to see it in person now with all of the additions to it. i am sure you were surprised to see some of the things clifton did or left off and it still went like hell. maybe it was fixed by the time it got to you. i remember putting on the larger rear flares and seeing the wheel well not completely welded together like everyone says it has too in order to go fast. clifton made that car about as cheap as possible and it would chase down vipers and z06r's all day long and people hated it. your car is making my to do list much longer. jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobramatt Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 i am glad to see you make some strides in clifton's old car. it was sure fun to watch it while he still had it out here. that thing was fast and everyone commented on it. love to see it in person now with all of the additions to it. i am sure you were surprised to see some of the things clifton did or left off and it still went like hell. maybe it was fixed by the time it got to you. i remember putting on the larger rear flares and seeing the wheel well not completely welded together like everyone says it has too in order to go fast. clifton made that car about as cheap as possible and it would chase down vipers and z06r's all day long and people hated it. your car is making my to do list much longer. jimbo Its always nice to start with a fast car. I however wish in retrospect that I had Cliftons car and bought another one as I have changed vertually every piece on the car. I could have had his old car and this one. In most cases I will suggest people looking for track cars to purchase one, after a good inspection, that has already been track prepped. This way you save so much money and you get on track a lot quicker. I originally planned on the same approach but after having missed three races with engine failures (with the original L28 turbo short block) thats when this build took on a completely different path. At that point I created a completly different car that required a complete different approach. I am certainly glad I did as I am overwhelmed with the results. Anyone who has ever been a Z lover or enjoyed the lines of the car or been fortunate enough to watch the IMSA GTU series back in the day would agree that this particular car done in this particular livery with the present setup under race conditions is nothing less than spectacular. I'm not being arogant as it has nothing to do with me. The car gets all the glory, Im am just lucky enough to drive her................ Matt Picture: From Yesterday at Atlanta Motorsports Park / Turn One / Myself and Zeke Massie in his Volvo Race car. (Zeke is a parapeligic and uses total hand controls to operate his race car. Ever hear someone say that a person is "confined" to a wheelchair? They never met Zeke.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Another pic for the library! Thanks Man! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 with your spitter dilemma, we mad a c channel and attached it to the cross member of our bmw's and then have 4 dzus fasteners up on the air dam. we can slide the splitter into the channel and lift up the front of the splitter and attach the splitter with the dzus up front. takes literally less than a min to take on and off the way we have it. may be a little getto but it works great. the splitter hangs about 4" out front and is made of a honey comb with aluminum skin. light and stiff. i will get pics and post on here for future reference. Jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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