John Scott

I'm throwing in the towel! After a good look at Dewzenol's & Andy's pictures, I feel there is no easy solution to the full length revision for an appreciable improvement in ground clearance. Thanks for putting up with my nagging e-mails, guys! Fastfrog is going to contact Loren to confirm his findings and check the cost of a tri-Y for the die hards willing to pay the cost for a custom set. It really would eliminate the ground issue. Really don't know about the hp/tq characteristics of the design. JS

Thanks Andy. I think we can see how these headers were fit around a standard size starter. I think Rick Johnson's measurements of 3" were to the solinoid or ?? The starter bolts to the same surface as the oilpan. Do the math: 2- 1.75" pipes plus a 4 1/4" starter depth (mini) plus about an inch clearance, you come up with 8.75". This is way lower than a stock oilpan. I'm going to ask Loren this week what he came up with, but after studying pictures all weekend, I don't feel we're going to gain much under the right side. JS

Pilot bearing keeps the transmission shaft aligned with crank centerline. Production is a bronze. Preferred is the direct replacement heavy duty roller style pn#14061685 JS

He looks as sumg as someone with a supermodel on each arm! Great find! JS

Great #s! Sounds like a torque monster! One of the reasons I went with the 215s was the similar port cross section to the AFRs. They still maintain the low end velocity of the smaller heads, note the flows at .200, .300, .400. Something my builder has passed on, that when you get a good exhaust to intake ratio, you won't need the typically wide spread of duration of most off the shelf cams, which try to make up for lesser flowing exhasut of most heads. These heads, like the AFRs would probably benefit from narrowing the spread to about 4 degrees. Tayloring a cam's lobe profile, accel. ramps, to the flows throughout the valve lift, i.e. custom grind, is one more way of getting the most potential out of your head. JS

Mike, thanks for the pep talk, and I'm going to do all I can to get you to eat crow, w/o the ketchup All the improvements are beneficial to the HybridZ members, Motorsport Auto, who renames these headers for their V8 swap, and the Street Rodders who the header was originally designed. Having a too low ground clearance or changing starters to a mini seems like a no brainer to me. The simple changs are raising the right side collector 1/2 inch. Raising the passenger side tubes 1".( right now over 3" of clearance to a mini starter!!) Reduce collector angle to 0 degrees. Change to 2 1/2 collector. Point center bolt down. That's it! Loren has admitted that all the improvements would be good for everyone. Lately, by the next time I call him he's lost enthusiasm, and his memory. I'm going to Fax the modifications with the mentioning of a potentially big clientele. We are 2000+ strong with most in the design, building stages. I would think SS could expect many orders once they are proven successful. I would think Motorsport would also pick up on orders. Let's see what happens. JS

I had a similar question on a drag race forum. I was warned that a good set of heads could be turned into scrap metal real fast by the unskilled. A bowl clean up and port match is one thing. A flow bench and experience is needed for getting more cfm throughout the valve lift. JS

Along the same lines, my radar detector, Uniden, is starting to show its age. Got Zapped by a Lazer State Patrol the other day. Just enough warning to let me know I was #$%^. Lucky I wasn't that much over the limit, he ignored me. Also shorter warning on many of the local cop's radar. Anyone care to share their personal favorite? JS

Spoke with Loren today. He said flanges for the next run of 1 3/4 havent come in so he can't check starter clearance. He's getting me a little frazzled. Said he didn't receive my pictures, then said maybe he did. I'm having to repeat all the details for the fourth and fith time. Reminding him of his suggestion to reduce the collector angle, as Rick mentioned, and going to 2 1/2 collectors. Keeps saying the headers already run close to the starter, a full size, and that some minis actually hang lower or have solinoids that protrude further than sotck. This isn't the case with the 93-96 camaro starter which is smaller in all dimensions. Rick stated plenty of room around the starter and could be changed. I asked him, if he wan't interested, or too busy in taking on this modification to let me know and we can look elsewhere. He said to try again next week. Still pushing the tri_Y design, but we don't have enough people interested. Update: THANK YOU Rick Johnson for taking the time to talk to me, measure and give a concise plan for me to present to S&S. I'll hit Loren with the exact measurements. Such minimal changes to make a really great header for the Z. JS

Wait a minute, even though 1fastz is running some really fast time on the bottle, his discussion is right on topic. He did state that his engine was dyno'd at rwhp498, no nitrous. On the bottle, you would see those numbers climb to 700+ rwhp. Using the weight of the car and a 124 mph ON THE MOTOR, with compromised timing, the numbers do add up to a very impressive horsepower within the dynojets claims. Thanks for the cam specs and headflow. Although my builder would argue that Pro1s have advanced in their design since conquests, not just a rename, 318 cfm, according to Grumpys chart could get you past the 550 mark. Obviously some good flow work. I think we've resolved few heads flow really well out of the box. Streetable? That's a matter of opinion. In the 80s, I used to drive my 11.5:1 600+ lift 256 duration 106 LSA cammed car pretty regularly. My new motor is somewhat tamer than yours, by about .033 lift and a little less than 10 degrees duration. With a long duration and alum head, 11:1 pistons will work with pump gas. You've stated that you ran pump gas. I think your discussion is valid here. 124mph with a 3000+ car? Car math says you're pushing real close the the 550-600 mark.

WOW! 498 at the wheels. Figuring the .8-.85 or so loss to the wheels, that would put you in the high 500-low 600 hp flywheel. What cfm do your Dart heads flow? Your cam, I'm trying to remember, .600 250-60 duration?? 130mph+ in the 1/4 for a 2700 lb car. I know you've passed on this question before, but is this about what you run on the motor? JS

Grumpy, your knowledge and resources are phenominal! I still wonder how AFR can claim 500 hp from a 260 cfm head. About 15 cfm short. Hmmm. Reading some of the tests, it can be a bit misleading to say your engine will run the same in the controlled enviroment of the dyno room as in a hot engine bay pushing through restrictive exhaust. In the right context, its a great tool for tuning and reference. Thanks again! www.Prestage.com car math for wheel hp from et or mph in the 1/4. usually .8-.85 of flywheel. JS

I'm hearing lots of claims of 450, 500, even 600 hp from the 383 sbc. Grumpy, I like your dyno program. It seems to be more realistic and in tune with the builder I'm using, and a few other racing fanatics I know. We all read the 500 hp claims of performance part maker X and others, that if plugged into your program, would be obviously less. Since 500 hp is becoming the benchmark of many production cars and street rodders as well, using a well matched head/ cam intake and compression, on pump premium, could you give a possible component combination for a 383 making (flywheel) 450 hp, 500, and 550? In other words, no brand names needed, assuming all other parts being well matched, how much head flow in cfm, (using a realistic good aftermarket head) compression, cam lift/duration is necessary for these figures? ( w/o a power adder, I doubt that 600 can be accomplished and still be considered streetable, no?) 4/8: Once we have our engines in the car, the 1/4 mile is a pretty good tool for figuring how much we get to the ground by using the trap mph figure. (mph x .00426)(mph x .00426)(mph x .00426) X weight in lb...or just go to prestage.com and use their car math. Interesting to note on a 2700lb car approx. 450 flywheel, 360rwhp= 120mph, 500, 400rwhp=124, 550, 440rwhp=128, but until then we ask Grumpy JS

Welcome to HybridZ, www.ssheaders.com Kevko pans www.kevko.net/ 7 & 8 qt have a 3 1/8 right side kick out and are about 7" deep. The milodon drag pan looked great until I saw the price. Don't know for sure, but might fit better with full length if it doesn't have a kickout. I ordered the 8qt Kevko. Loren at SS said sometimes a corner needs to be modified on kick out pans, i.e. cut and rewelded. JS

Were peak hp/tq 522/505? Torque really takes a nose dive at the forbidden 7000! It will be interesting to figure the shift points. Thanks again Grumpy! JS

I'm running CC pro mags, 1.52 on the intake, 1.6 on the exhaust. I had 12 1.52 from my V6. Builder had a new set of 8 1.6s. So why not use 'em? Cam will be ground accordingly so lifts #s are actual with respect to rocker ratio. .585 most likely or just under .600 for practical purposes. We're down to two lobe profiles that really fit the flow #s well, one from Lunati, the other from Isky. One has a much faster accel ramp,the other a little "rounder" JS

...I'd like to see how it will compare to the actual run. Sea level figures please. No need to compensate for my altitude since the dyno will be calibrated accordingly. 383 6" rod. 11:1. Victor Jr. 1 3/4 header. If you can plug in flows from the bench for my 215 Dart Pro1s, 305 cfm intake @ .585, exhaust is av. .8- .85 of intake, (intake is still 253 cfm @ .400) solid roller: 248 degree .585 lift 110 LSA. I'm going to lose quite a bit of low end torque with this cam, but maybe a good thing with a light car. Could you post a few different rpms? 2500, 4500, 6500, peak tq and hp? Thanks! JS

Plus you can do it forwell under what the ricer's pay. An 11 second Honda has some serious $$ in it. I'll never ever get used to that undignified blaaaap of the 4 banger. I shut down one of the biggest talkers in our town, you know, AWD Eclipse, lots of go-fast stickers, hula hoop wing. My car wasn't that fast, as serious street cars go, but as you say "mouth" is just that, horsepower to weight is another. You won't be dissapointed with your combo. JS

Will they fit? I don't know. I don't think Loren at SS will know. I'm trying to resolve the most glaring problems with the current design i.e. ground clearance and floor contact. One of the ways to help will be changing to a 2 1/2 collector. I'm running a aftermarket T56 and want a perfect fit, too. Any of us can contact Loren for special needs. Thinking if minimal changes can be done to existing design, better for price. If we keep it simple, something he can apply to another run, price may be the same. Hasn't said yet. For a completely new jig, for example tri-y we need at least 20 orders to make it work for S&S. I've forwarded some pictures of Dewzenol's head on shot, Andy's driver side engine compartment and starter comparison. We need a picture of the tunnel area where the collectors make contact.Also, I'm not so much taking the "Lead" on this as trying to reduce my own headaches, and more than happy to pass on if its better. I've established communication with Loren and am willing to continue. If anyone wants to add to the process, research, suggestions, communication, please jump in. JS JS

Loren has another run of 1 3/4s getting ready for production. He stated he would set one up on his test engine to see what could be done in the starter area. How much room do you guys running these have around the starter? Using minis or the 93-96 camaro? Still throwing around the tri-Ys made in a modified jig to gain clearance. GOT PICTURES? We need some! Loren also said pictures of the headers in the Z chassis, especially in/ from the transmission tunnel area would really be helpful for reworking the floor clearance. He'll let me know next week what can be done for passenger side. If this fits the Z better he might just leave the jig in place for all future runs of 1 3/4s. JS

One more consideration we might not be addressing, auto or manual transmission. I remeber my 700R4 used to fill the whole underside, where my T56 has much more tunnel room. Would this require different collector positions? Turning collectors in might be beneficial for a standard, but not auto. Andy runs his exhasut along the frame rails, (right?) a standard can tuck them closer to the transmission. JS

Great info Grumpy. Plugging in some numbers on a typical summer day, 6000' dragstrip, our density altitude can be 10,000ft! Losing over 25% hp than sea level. Makes you really respect the 10 second street cars that day. JS

While we're at it, are there stock height springs for the original strut housing that can be ordered in different ratings? I'm not talking coilovers. Also does anyone know where to get the strut shims for corner preloading? Mine sits(sat) at 47". I sure I would feel better about this header thing if I could bring it up a bit. JS

Thanks Grumpy, your advice always appreciated. Do you ever take a break from our enquiring minds? This guy needs a medal or something. I'm starting to learn a little more here. After reading what would be ideal for a particuar application, sooner or later, due to time and money restrictions, we need to realize there's going to be a compromise when dealing with a tight frame and big engine. Try to shoot for the best bang for the buck. After reading the Headers by Ed site, someday I'd love to make my own set of headers. JS

OK we need details from those already using the SS header. This head on picture from Dewzenol's site is the only reference I have for comparing the left and right side discrepancy. www.gatewayzclub.com/members/dewzenol/images/z%20pics/moreheadersandfitt ingengine/_DCP_0225.jpg (funny UBB image won't let me post, proabably a Mac thing) The passenger side hangs way, way lower than the driver's. Rick, was the reduction to a 2 1/2 collector and leveling of the collector enough for good floor pan clearance? If turning the collector in, similar to some vette designs, how many degrees would be beneficial? Could we miss the floor pans altogether? Also how much clearance is there on the starter side to the starter. The new minis and late model camaro are slightly less than 3" in diameter. Andy, Needwaymorespeed, Rick, & anyone else, we can learn a lot from what you already know. Your detailed input would be greatly appreciated. When we have our improvements in order, I would be glad to discuss our requests with Loren and find out where we need to go from there. JS