Derek

How about we move this to a different thread as it's all I can do to get a conventional cam made let alone solenoid operated valves

Nothing right now. Trying to get on the other side of the backlog of work so I can get back on the head. Kind of sucks as I really want to be working on the head and not the current pablum I'm working on now. Not every job I do is exactly awesome if you know what I mean:)

Thanks Garvice Things are at a standstill for a bit as I'm swamped with regular pattern work. It usually slows up a bit this time of year so hopefully I'll be able to get back on it soon. I did receive the package from EFI Hardware and the stuff looks great. The only complaint I have (and I passed this along to them) is the edges haven't been de-burred. It makes a really well made piece feel kind of cheap. And it is well made. I'll hit it with a de-buring tool and all will be fine. Got a price for doing the head work. $1250 for seats,guides, deck and surface, multi angle valve job. This includes cutting the valve seat pockets in the raw casing. Another $550.00 to line bore the towers should I choose to go that direction. I have no idea if these are reasonable prices or not. Making progress on the modifications I need to make to my new (old) mill in order to do the machine work on the head. So things are happening just nothing particularly interesting:) Derek

Well just pulled the trigger on these: 50mm with 88mm horns. Got them from EFIHardware.com. I can't seem to find it listed on their site but I bought them from them on ebay. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-Cylinder-DCOE-Individual-Throttle-Body-ITB-Plus-TPS-and-Fuel-Rail-Kit-50mm-/261574780258?ssPageName=ADME:B:BOC:AU:1123 They look to be really well made for the price. A lot cheaper than the Jenvey's and probably a lot better quality than OBX. They were recommended by 1vicissitude and considering what all you get for the price I really don't think I could do better. The intake will have injector bungs molded in so the lack of them in the throttle body isn't a problem. I really like that they use sealed bearings as opposed to bushings. They also use 6 degree butterflies which is another plus. I wish they were cast looking as opposed to billet but that's just me. I like castings:) Derek

Yea dealing with Tony for the last 2 years had me saying that to myself more than once:) Talk bout cryptic. I stumbled across this guys blog when I was doing the initial research on the head. I was amazed the stuff he was accomplishing working out of what looks to be a portable canvas garage and an old enclosed trailer. I looked at his approach like something artisanal where is my approach is more production. And it looks like he got his done before me:)

And in another 7 you'll just have it printed in metal:)

$9000.00 and it's yours

Hey Jeff long time! Yea this thread is pulling people out of the woodwork. The good stuff is about to begin! Derek

Just got back from meeting with Mazworx. Went very well. Nice clean facility. Plus they do have a boring bar that will do the cam towers. I hear what you guys are saying about the cam towers but it just seems to me that one clean bore through the towers and a cam ground to fit is the way to go. Of course when I get the price I may be of a different mind. I just checked and I can get 29mm drill rod. I could use that to check the alignment of the cam towers. If it locks up solid then I have a problem. If it doesn't then I'm good to go. The bottom line is I have options and I like options. They were just finishing up one of these bad boys for a 2JZ That's a big ol block of aluminum! Well at this point everything is in place to get it to the next level. I'm bringing a second mill online to do the head as my main mill is just too busy. I don't want to be rushed on the machining and I don't want to have to keep yanking it out of the mill.

They are split caps My fear is inaccuracies between the sets of caps being as they are coming from different motors. For the price of a line bore and considering how hard getting cams are it seems it would be good insurance. And a lot easier than me setting up a jig and boring them. Actually I would mount them to mandrels and face the mounting surfaces but that's still more work than I want to do. I prefer "And line bore the cam towers while you're at it" approach. I don't think I'll have much trouble with the tune. I managed to get that contraption of a manifold running really well. I was just pointing out that it can be tricky. Although when your design mantra is; Look cool Look really cool Actually run Then there is a lot of room for definition of "drivability" I think the honda guys have problems because they are still using the honda ecu. With megasquirt (and others) the ability to get a decent tune makes it pretty easy. Of course if you're looking for every bit of power that's a different story. Derek

Meeting with Mazworks tomorrow to see if we can come to terms with the machining. My big sticking point is finding someone to line bore the cam towers. At least someone semi locally. I really think the cam towers should be bored especially since we are custom grinding cams. Might as well take advantage of that. They are 29.5mm right now and finding someone with a bar that small has been problematic. Mazworks doesn't have one.

Well that was my first plan. Make a manifold that would accept a DCOE pattern. After further research in that department it seems 52mm ITB's are the bare minimum for a stock K20. That kind of leaves out all the DCOE style and puts you right into the DCO. I may be interpreting this wrong but that's the conclusion I've drawn at this point. I'm going with ITB's because I want them. From a tuning and drivability stand point a plenum with a single throttle body would probably be better. But I don't care:) Derek

Time for an update. I believe we have a path forward on the cams. I have a steel foundry that I indirectly work with that pours 8625 alloy. Billet cams are made from 8620 hot rolled bar. I'm going to make a set of traditional style patterns of the cam cores and have them poured in 8625. I just had a very good conversation with Ron Iskenderian and he is interested in grinding the cams. He said the 8625 would be fine. I'll send him the cast cores and he'll handle the straightening, heat treating and grinding. I need to reverse engineer a set of K20 cams to get the data we need. Anyone have a set laying around they can part with? I don't have firm pricing yet but it will be considerably cheaper then the prices we were throwing around before and more in line with normal cams. So we're back on track for now and moving forward. Derek

Thanks for that. I'll contact them. I talked to someone who was highly recommended and had a sit down meeting with the head. Unfortunately they seem to be as busy as I am and haven't worked up pricing. Called twice with no call back so that's my cut off so I'm on the hunt again. Too busy to call me back... Too busy to do the work. I'll contact Mazworx when I have more info on the cams. I may hold you to that:)

They list them at Jim wolf as being 2.5 degrees. That is probably all your going to get with the size of the dowel vs the diameter of the gear hub. This isn't my area but couldn't they be drilled to hit the mark your looking for? I've never made a adjustable cam gear before.

Hey you beat me too it. At least I provided a link! Edit: They get $140.00 a set to drill a stock set. I can beat that by a bit.

Hi Thanks. My head doesn't use the K20 timing setup. It uses a KA24 set. The cams will have a single dowel like the stock KA. You can buy drilled gears from a few suppliers but I'll be setting up a jig to do mine in the mill so I imagine this is something I'll be supplying. Here is a link to nico club with a how to article http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/djpantsspecrs-diy-adjustable-cam-writeup.html

To build on what Tony rambled on about:) I was hoping a minor cottage industry would sprout up around the head. I do the minimum machining to ensure quality then it gets taken from there. I'm hoping as soon as I have a running head there will be more interest, and some of these blanks fill in. I have my hands full just producing the head and associated castings so if someone down the road want's to produce headers for the head then they will most likely be the person who makes the headers and people will buy from them. I posted this earlier but I'll post it again Being as I'm poor I'm choosing to mod a set of existing headers. If I had deeper pockets I would go custom. I had enough money to buy the used honda parts I needed off of ebay. I could have saved a bunch by hitting up some machine shops for cracked complete heads. These are sweat equity dual cam heads. If someone wants a turn key head then this isn't for them yet. And may never be. If someone want's to buy castings and turn them into a turn key head and sell them all the better. If I had thought this all the way through I never would have done it so be glad there all these loose ends:) Derek

That is on the list of things to get answered. And thanks for brining it up again. I didn't mention it in my post as Things are a bit crazy. I'm thinking more of that being the prototype cam. I would have the mold 3D printed. This would allow me to complete the head and see what happens from there. I'm trying to get plan A,B and C in position so that I can make a decision where this is going after Ron gets back. Honestly though unless he has someone willing to work way under industry standard, the prices I'm getting for machined and hardened cores are probably pretty accurate. This may be a $10,000.00 or more head and that's the way it is. But it's not $40,000.00

Yea this cam thing has been tough. Not what I was expecting for sure. I've got enough info now so that I can have a coherent conversation when Ron comes back from vacation. This will give Tony some time to to work his angles as well. I've got the specs sent over to my steel foundry getting a core cast out of 4140 so we'll see how that progresses. I thought this was going to be a thread about 3D printed sand casting. Who knew it would really be about getting custom cam cores produced! Derek

Crower cams and equipment was the first call I made. I was informed in a very " you're really bothering me" tone " If we don't have the core we can't make the cam". Then "can you recommend someone to make the core?" Answer-No. So needless to say I wasn't impressed. I don't know who I talked to but at that point it didn't matter. I will call back and ask for Dave if you think it will make a difference. Jones Cams link was pink so I know I was there. Not sure If I contacted them or not. Actually yes and no. The two ends of the head, the combustion chambers and ports and the water jacket will always be printed as a single unit. This way the core registration will never change between castings. Plus as was pointed out I'm not constricted by hard tooling. For example. After I cast the first one I determined machining each combustion chamber would be so much easier than hand finishing. And a lot more accurate as well. This is much easier to fix digitally than traditionally. The 2 sides I will most definitely be going to traditional as the surface finish is better with bonded sand and I want it to look purdy. Agreed but as you know in turning as soon as you get the first chatter if you don't correct the situation then it just keeps resonating worse and worse. Then you have to stop, correct the chatter and proceed. That means me leaning over the machine the whole time. Also my lathe is a very tight accurate manual mill that I converted to CNC. I use it mostly for making custom tool holders and support items for the pattern mills. So it's not a production machine. Stop telling me I can machine the cores. I've had to talk myself out of it 3 or 4 times already:) I even had to call a machinist friend to talk me out of it! I know a time vampire when I see it. The non vtech K20 stick only has 6 lobes per side so there is a lot of material to remove.

Ok I just entered the hell that is K20 forums. I made a post looking for grinders that cut their own 8620 billets. We'll see where this takes me. And quoting G-E again Exactly. If I have to spend 2000.00 - 3000.00 for the first set I'd rather spend it with the company doing all the cores. Also as I've said again and again it's a k20. I want a K20 company making my cams. There are some real crooks in the world of K20 so this could get interesting. The crowd sourcing ideas are good but I'm not comfortable taking money until I get my head running and one or two more cast. What I'm looking for is commitment like Dans Now that's what I'm talking about:) Actually what I'm looking for is " if the head does this XXX and costs this $$$$$" I'm in" Not could be persuaded or thinking hard about. But IN. This will tell me what marks I need to hit. I've been at this selling S30 stuff over the interwebs for a while now. You'd be surprised how many people get lost looking for their paypal account after telling me they want a set of speaker panels:) I really hate to develop this head this way but I've got a bundle in it already and I need to really get a good grip on the market. It was really easy to justify before but from here on out it gets tougher. If you build it they will come won't cut it:)

And this guy gets it. It's a 6 cylinder K20 head. Apply whats already been done and you have power. I'm not going to address every individual comment about manufacturing the cores but they all have merit. Most of this comes down to Machine capacity and talent. I can't rough out a 30" core blank between centers on a lathe. It will chatter like there is no tomorrow. That means a steady rest setup for each journal. Comp cams can't seem to do it in one shot either http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/more-effective-camshaft-machining I seriously could make twice the money doing pattern work as it would cost to buy the blanks in the time it will take me to make two cores. But this doesn't solve the problem of production anyway. So no I won't be machining cores. I suppose the way forward is to find a lower priced 8620 core. Either through group buy or cheaper source. I can make patterns and chills to do iron cores. I can get them poured and certified. But if that only satisfies he lower HP builds then it seems pointless. Resources would be better spent towards machined cores. Which would be my preference. I agree with G-E. It did seem like a "go away kid you're bothering me" kind of price

I'll just put you down for two then

Hi Dan Not sure what performance or what stock your looking at but the stock honda exhaust rockers are $25.00 each. Being a non vtech you use exhaust on both the intake and exhaust. PN 14624-RAA-A00. Ferrea roller rockers are around $80.00 each. Derek