Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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Let's do the math:
60,000 miles / 3,000 = 20 oil changes.
20 oil changes * $30 each = $600.00
Rebuilt engine = $$2,500.00
$2,500.00 - $600.00 = $1,900.00 this genius lost.
I use that same logic for noobs who are intent on 'rebuilding' a junkyard motor that uses a qt per 1000 or even 500 miles. You can buy a LOT of oil in 100,000 miles and still be ahead on a proper overhaul. Best just run it as it is and save your money for the performance overhaul you are going to do anyway in about 40K miles! LOL
MY OIL CHANGE STORY (and likely similar to Big Phil's buddy with the truck!):
Family went to mass Saturday so we didn't have to worry about the mess on Sunday getting out of town to Saginaw. Got up early on a cool Sunday morning to make the drive to Saginaw, and the 1977 Impala started, but the 'oil' light was flickering. Dad revved it, but it wouldn't go out. So pop the hood, check the oil. Nothing on the stick... Hmmmm...
Put in a quart.... nothing on the stick. But starting and the oil light is now out. Adds another quart: Nothing. Hmmmmmm...
"We want to go to Saginaw Dad!"
Dad sees the open pan of lawnmower oil I had drained earlier in the week, we pour that into the car 'for insurance'.
Drive to Saginaw, and Back. Quickie Lube Places had not really taken off as Manguson-Moss only passed three - five years before. And it was Sunday, most were closed anyway. 150 mile round trip+
Dad concedes 'all right, you can take it to the Auto Shop at school and do an oil change' (he was not a big fan of my taking Auto 1 and 2...)
I get it up on the rack, with the shop teacher standing there as I drop the plug and glorp, glorp, glorp, dripdripdripdripdrip... that was it.
Shocked, Mr. McArley looks wide-eyed into the drainpan. "Stick a coarhangar up in there, it must be sludged up."
Do so, nothing. We drop the filter, and it's full of oil. He says "Please tell me you drained some before I got here." I tell him the story, he's like:
!!!Now the car makes the 1.5 mile drive back from school to home. Dad drives it maybe 2.5 miles or so to work the rest of the week. Start-stop short drives in cold weather.
Next weekend we repeat the Saturday night ritual, and this time head to West Branch (at the time the VD Capital of Michigan, FYI) about 30 miles distant along M55. We go to the mall there, and spend the day shopping. We start back, and not a mile down the road, the ole Impala starts Mosquito Abatement fogging out the tailpipe. I mean WOAH!
Dad is NOT happy. Very accusatory tones about 'what did you do goddamnit!' I'm lost. Can't figure it out. We stop halfway home to check the oil, and add three quarts to get it on the stick again. More accusations about my competence in counting to five, etc...I mean I FILLED IT! Honest! I don't know WHERE it could have gone! (At least not THREE QUARTS in 15 Miles!!!)
Dad cussing and grumbling under his breath about his mistake letting me work on the family car. He takes the LUV and has me drive it over to the local independent place "Herb's Garage" (I wonder if he knows Joe?)
Monday afternoon comes around, and Herb says 'got it fixed Al, have you and your son come over I have to show you what he did wrong...'
I'm dreading Herb's excoriation, he's like a million years old, and regularly made us young pups look like fools by simply connecting distributor wires to coils to produce spark, wiggling battery posts to fix broken starters and solenoids. You know, all the black magic old white guys seem to do to infuriate teenagers by making them 'look like idiots' in front of all their friends. (That we actually were idiots does not occur to some for the rest of their liftime!)
I get there, and Herb brings us over to the Impala. "This was the problem Al" and points to the left bank of the engine which has caked parrifinand black sludge over the rockers almost in the shape of the Chevy Valve Cover on the car. Right side is clean, they had scooped it out, and put a wire down the drainback holes.
"Al, you say your son was all over you to do an oil change... Well, my suggestion is you take your son's advice about your cars more often because you sure as hell don't know f-all about maintaining them! You got this sludged up engine because you aren't chaning your oil often enough and taking all these cold weather short trips. The drive out to West Branch with a FULL oil pan let this stuff melt down and plug the drinaback holes when the engine cooled. When ALL the oil came up to the top end of the engine once you got up to highway speed on M55, it just pumped down past the valve seals. It didn't do it in town because you were just idling, anything that pumped up there had time to drain back again. (looks at me) You didn't do anything wrong, you just didn't know this was common with people who don't maintain their cars like they should. (back to dad) I'll have Jeff scoop this side out and write up the bill. By the time we're done in the office, he should be finished. (looks at me again) You can stay out here and watch, so you know what to do when your dad doesn't listen to you again!:mrgreen:"
They go in the office, and I see Herb pointing out to me, and the bill, and shaking his finger at my dad.
I drove the LUV home, dad drove the Impala. Nothing was said to Mother, save a somewhat guilty 'Herb Fixed it" from my dad.At 46,000 miles, while starting the engine at school #6 exhaust valve dropped right off, and wrecked the engine. That one was 'my fault' too, at least this time there was no hesitation "Push it around to the Auto Shop and get it fixed." We ended up swapping it for a 79 Impala with 76K miles on it from Florida. So much for the Corvette Heads, Distributor, and Intake I had planned for the old Impala...
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I'll admit it, I sent it on to my wife...
"Maybe this will get a Z32 in the household...."
Unlikely, but she said she always wanted a horse. Here's FOUR of 'em, and no crap to shovel and no stalls to clean, and grain to mix, and....
"A horse is a hole in mid air supported on four spindly legs which can break easily.
Into this hole, you throw money which never returns. If one of the legs breaks, you shoot it, and the hole still takes money to process if you want to eat it afterwards."
By this definition, a horse is more beneficial than a car, insamuch as you can eat it afterwards... except I live in California, and they passed that law that you 'can't eat pets' so the nod, logically, goes towards a CAR instead.
At least that has always been the argument to the wife about the horse thing...worked for 25 years so far (come December 22nd!)
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Confirmation would be appreciated, thanks!
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Tony,
I'm working with the owner of this same car, and have another couple pages from the Sard manual needing translation. If ok, I'd like to get them to you.
Thanks.
sharkie73z AT yahoo DOT com
I started the second machine today late, so that means monday begins the countdown. And I won't be in the office with Okamura, either...
I can give it a shot. But likely I got less than a week here now...
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Some from Canada would argue that twin 90mm t/b's would be a nice addition to that setup. Hey, bigger is better, right?
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Tony is using the logic that someone should prove him that it is useful, as his first hand experience is that it is unnecessary. I will take the other side and say there is no negative from my experience so why not ?
I just read this, and if this hasn't taken a Z Car.com twist I don't know what has, I'm off this thread.
I never said a GD thing like that. How someone can make that statement after what I wrote is beyond my comprehension, and frankly I'm disapointed that it comes up here. Terribly disapointed.
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AHA!
The Honda TB's (as most nissans) are say 500CC a cylinder. Didn't the Z31 have a 55mm tb, and the VG30DETT have dual 50's or 55's ?
The s2000 went down in size? It's a long stroke motor that revs higher than most of the street stuff out there... cam on the pulley does some stuff, but what are you asking about since they dropped the diameter? Looks like something is at play there. But remember we are talking TURBO here as well, I don't know of any OEM Turbo or forced induction S2000's...
Cylinder sizing may be part of the equation.
But you are showing 'peak' hp of only 4hp lost. I have seen similar numbers on dynos where you pick UP 20 hp due to whatever reason lower in the powerband.
This is what I was getting at, maybe this is a 'drag racing' part, and give s you 'peak' power, but there is a midrange sacrifice. Without dyno testing, it iwll be hard to quantify, though.
Bozoku pipes are not the same as running a 475 RW KW car around. Please give me credit for not making outlandishly stupid comments. If someone wanted to put Bozoku pipes on their car, I would not have a problem with it. But someone with 475 kw to the rear wheels (you do the conversion) kinda tells me they have a reason for it being there. Especially now that I can see 658HP on a 3" pipe may be a practical limit. And again, if the guys at E-Motive tell me 'use at least a 4" on this horsepower level' I'm figuring they're not Bozuku fans... You appear to make a link between the inlet size and outlet size orifices, which I can only figure is a joke, I won' t even try to explain how wrong that is on so many levels. Frankly for Turbochargers, NO exhaust is the best exhaust, and that has been proven in several dyno runs by severl independent indicviduals. So no, I don't think a 4" exhaust is overkill. a 3" exhaust on a BONE STOCK ZXT returned 20HP gain with no drop on the bottom end. For Phil's car, I have no doubt the 4" is being utilized, and there is not a chance it's restricting the output on the top end. A 3" pipe on the other hand, as he approaches 600HP to the rear wheels may start being the lower limit of acceptable sizing.
You seem to be confusing questioning why with criticizim. It's not, it's asking for a reason. If you think a guy saying all the American Roll Cages are constructed out of 'steam pipe' and consider that a mild form of heat, I don't see anybody going that far at all. Not even JeffP in his statement. I dont' see any 'heat' just some guys asking why, and what has anybody quantified. As stated before, this isn't 'Accessorize to be Feared' website. Rest assured there is plenty of stuff to criticize with the roll cages because it's a more defined art with more people familiar with it, and given examples that work and what don't. Not so much with TB's...and then there are those that will defend something when it's not under attack.
If I want to criticize work, there's plenty places to do that. I come here to LEARN, and I asked WHY. Can you get it though your head this is NOT criticizim, it's asking for REASONS... some shred of empirical evidence outside of 'it looks badarse' to put one on MY PROJECT.
I'll repeat it for the last time, as apparently nobody has the answers: I'll likely buck up megabucks and run testing to see what works. But I'd prefer not to have to buy 6 throttle bodies and run tests on them all. I'd like to get a ballpark figure to maximize my tuning time on the dyno and help narrow the selection quite a bit.
The day I make 750HP with a 60mm (or 70mm) throttle body, I will be the first guy to necropost this thread and post a 'NOT NEEDED TOTAL WASTE OF MONEY: IT'S A BLING BLING THING' criticism.
Till that point, I'm ASKING. Nobody has an answer save for Wizard Black.
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It's not like I haven't gotten enough of 'Japanese History Lessons' of american culture these last couple of weeks. You think I make this up, but...I'm not that inventive, really, I'm just a talented parrot!
ERRRACCH!
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"Motor Insanity sheets are required to do the necessary calculations."
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I wouldn't know about the 'italian' thing... I'm full blooded American...
I just use the screen name "Tony D" because 'Fat Walking Eagle' would sound presumptious. It would have nothing to to with nobody being able to pronounce my last name properly.
I mean, Ciccolo, how hard can it be, right?
"Burn the bat, eat the cannolis." The perfect crime: no evidence! LOL
"What's that, someone claims a stock 140mph 240Z. Fredo, what did I tell you about exaggeration, here on the forum? Michael, get me my bat..."
I hear Cubans got a good thing as well...
LOL
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Yes, you might have to eyebrow the smaller bore in the L24 block. A 260Z block had these 'eyebrows' in it already as they moved to larger valves in those heads.
It all depends on your head and how it lines up, some won't hit, others do. Mine did, but didn't bend a valve and only put maybe a 0.020" nick in the block where the valve went by...and then only on three cylinders.
A quick clearance with a die drinder with some grease to protect the top of the piston and rings from swarf falling in during the process, and you don't even need to pull the engine apart to do that!
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I drove a Triple Carbbed Z exclusively as my daily driver for years without any issues.
Frankly, EFI makes all the carbs feel kinda weak, especially on a cold drive off...
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Why not figure a way to use direct air injection as well? Operate a compressor off of the relatively underutilized alternator electrical supply and inject air as well as fuel. Skip the inlet plumbing altogether. You'd want a high flow, low pressure compressor.
To introduce the air at sufficient volume to make a difference you need Horsepower. High Flow, Low Pressure still takes HP. I can show you 6000ICFM compressors with a 600hp driver, and in the same frame show you a 2200 cfm compressor with the same 600HP driver, and the same frame.
If you are looking for self supercharged engines where the compression of offline cylinders in a multiple cylinder engine provides the compressed air source to a tank to be used for boosting pressure for spurts of acceleration, talk to Andy Flagg, he put his stuff into the public domain a couple of years ago due to lack of financial backing. The car does run, though... It's a Honda, with the three-valve head. (Want to guess what valve 3 cam is used for???)
On the best compressors, they get about 5cfm per horsepower and that's about it. Define the pressure, and I can give you a ballpark what kind of horsepower you will need for what flow...it's what I do for work (well, not really, I fix the problems the guys who lie about what airflow you will get per horsepower.... I'm more in the "make it make what they said it would make when the sold it to us department". They didn't give us a sign, so we bought one that said 'Service Department' because it was half-off. Guy that sold it to us said it had a 'self adhesive backing' and we didn't need to buy anything else. When we got it, it wouldn't stick to the door, and without thinking, three of the engineers had put screws through it before I mentioned perhaps we should go back to the guy who sold it to us and get our money back. They replied we already had a sign at the office, and it would be such a waste to send it back, why just not make this sign work...I think they have been in the field too long...)
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This is one of three commercially developed alternatives to SU's that I know of currently for sale. Accurate Injection is a member here, and worked with site members in developing the Datsun Specific Stuff.
TWM makes SU throttle bodies, so you are on your own for linkages on that one.
Patton Machine makes some slick adapters (guy in France running them and has posted here as well) that convert the existing SU's to Injected TB's by removing the dome and installing the adapter---it utilizes GM TBI injectors that operate at 14psi, so no 'EFI' Hose is required with that kit (technically).
I have made my own SU conversion, and our idle was fine. For a Turbo, KISS and just use a single T/B...feeding two TB's on a plenum is more difficult than you would think in terms of equal airflow...
Z-YA made a fueling setup from twin Stock T/B's on an SU manifold, and made good power on it as well.
They work, it's all a matter of what you want to pay...
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Warning: Do not please install when under water as shocking result get by your death.
Warning: Using the tool which is improper to the suitability of task may result of your death most dishonorably.
Warning: Eating this package not most deliciously, and may cause internal explosion of dire consequence.
Warning: Shooting of the flames into the reservoir which has not been evacuated can make big explosion, wear proper goggles and suit.
Not that I've spent too much time in Japan or Asia, but I'm sure the warnings would be translated somewhere along those lines, as I have seen them before. Too recently to admit, as well!
If you have a SCAN, e-mail it to me, or PM me and I will take it into the engineers where I'm working this week... there is a younger one who has an MX5, and a Scion which are all accessorized and who may be able to give me something you can use! He is already happy I linked him to the SoCal JCCS website, and is amazed I drive an "Old Famous Japanese Car, Fairlady Zetto!" He about freaked when he saw my MSA 2009 T-Shirt at the Airport. WE have been getting along well, he and I. The older engineer... well... Until he gets half a dozen beers in him it is...um...'difficult' to get him friendly towards the Gaijin...
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Yes, it was a competitor in the heyday of Muscular Cars that a Cramiro and Moustung would do battle on the field of honor for their respective villages.
Many times they went to the dyno simply to get 'motor insanity sheets' to show how worthy a competitor they could be should they ever sully their honor by actually competing in public.
(Motor Insanity Sheets is rearing it's head because I have spent the last two weeks working with the guy that sent me that request...and his Engrish in person is no better than the translation program he used to come up with that one!)
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I know, Tony, that you are stuck like a dog with a bone on that puppy ( and just to be clear, I mean that in a friendly tone ) and that's fine. No one has fluid flow analysis to answer you and you know they don't, so you won't get the level of tech data you want to be satisfied, methinks.
Actually, that's not true at all, several members have access to CFD modeling, and have posted results of it. Which is why I mentioned it, this should be a good way of solving the problem...
I know people want to argue about what is 'best', but from the beginning I have simply asked 'why'? You have given a theory, it's possible that's it. I have also given several rationalizations as to why a larger body would be used. But the predominant 'bigger is better' paradigm just seems like so much B.S. for most of the vehicles out there. Like I said before, this seems like the EFI equivalent of putting an 1100 Holley Dominator from your 426 Hemi Dragster on your 318 Dodge Dart and smiling broadly. Some of Phils comments seem to support that, as well.
Now, let me restate it again in case anybody has missed it:
I am building a Bonneville Engine which will be at WOT for extended periods and not have to worry about Modulation Issues. If someone can give me a good reason to use a big single as opposed to triple ITB's on the manifold, it would make plumbing the setup much easier.
Everybody is getting caught up in wanting to argue this side of the point or the other, when all I'm doing is asking for concrete data which may support which way I should go on a highly stressed engine in those operations. You know, engineering a solution, instead of guessing, or accessorizing. My Bonneville Car is not a place for advertisements or accessorizing, it's for functional things to do one thing: break a record. Looks are nice, but from my personal experience a lot of things that are touted as 'bigger and better' rarely are, and you functionally get far more payback performancewise from things you never thought would work as well as they did. I can bet there are people on the street running a cam with more lift and more duration than our current record-setting Bonneville N/A engine. Think about that for a second...
Likely what we will end up having to do is (like everything else) build BOTH setups at great cost, and then do the dyno testing ourselves. (The comment Spork Made has me interested...that 'larger than normal runners...may end up buying a similar manifold, and then testing various bodies on it.)
Now, that being said, if I put up a couple grand in Dyno Time and parts procurement costs (well, the triples setup was $2K+ and we haven't made the MonZter Plenum Knock-Off yet...) believe me I will likely not be tooo forthcoming with the information. I might get a bit more arrogant, and THEN start to argue based on my personal testing... but to that point I'm just asking for an engineering analysis.
I think the CFD owners got more things to do than run simulations on various throttle body sizes... but it sure would be nice if one of them runs across this thread and offers to 'put the argument to rest' like what happened on the plenum thread MonZter did!
Yes, and apologies to Phil for jackiong his thread...
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sorry have not been on. The 90mm TB is over kill, so is the 3" IC pipe, and 4" exhaust.
I don't know that the 4" exhaust is 'overkill' on a car running a GT35R at it's horsepower limits. It was not uncommon in Japan to see 125mm piping on turbo cars as a matter of course. Today they still sell 104mm piping for S30 Turbo setups.
Testing on JeffP's car says that his 3" exhaust may well start to be a sticking point on horsepower development from this point forward.
The guys at E-Motive said 4" minimum...
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Correct me if Im wrong, and this is just based on area calculations, If the RB26dett had 6 butterflys, then each one caters to an individual cylinder. Therefore during each intake stroke the cylinder has roughly 1590 square mm's to play with(3.14x22.5 squared). With a 90mm TB you have a much greater area, however it is divided by two, as you have two cylinders drawing air at once (3.14x45 squared divided by 2). It comes out to roughly 3150 mm square per cylinder...
Back to the same argument Tony is using, nobody has given a good reason as to why there is a crusade against large throttlebodies and not other forms of mis-engineering ?
Cheers
Chris
Flowing down a runner with 1590 sq mm of cross sectional area.
Following my line of though now, are we? My point exactly...
Though rate-of-change in the runner since the TB is closer to the intake valve is more abrupt. In this case a 'larger' plate with the plenum to act as a buffer and soften throttle response may make a high horsepower car easier to modulate.
You are talking about flow of one cylinder through the big plate, but the runner is only so big. And if you have a plenum that is pressurized opening the six 1590 sq cm TB's will have pressurized air coming in quickly. A larger body may be required to repressurize a plenum which has been evacuated to 'negative' pressure on a drop-throttle event. Which points me towards drag racing application.
Again, this is not a 'we use a small body' argument---some people may be justifying if for whatever reason, but I'd like a reason why it's necessary. I don't know that it is, and rational reviewing of 1000 hp cars makes me question why? I'm not on a large-body 'crusade' or anything of the sort, I want to know what it does, why the choice was made. As a 'crusade' about form of 'mis-engineering'...well...I mean, I wasn't aware this had turned into a ricer bling site where you put a fart can on the back of the car purely for appearances, along with a lot of stickers and learning some jargon to throw around there. I thought this site was more, about quantifying the performance, about learning the whys and not just another Honda trick-out parts site.
If there is a functionally rationalized reason for a given part being on the car, then it's not 'mis-engineered'---if there is no functional purpose for a given part being on a given car, it simply isn't engineered at all! Mis-Engineered implys that someone did something because of a mistake. That is a far cry from someone saying 'it looks badarsed and so I put it on there'---that's not engineering, that's accessorizing. Please read where I posted 'because I can' is all the justification I fell anybody needs to give for anything on their car. There is nothing wrong with 'accessorizing' a vehicle as you see fit. Just don't call it "Engineered to be Feared"! It's a whole different dogma when you get into the 'Accessorized to be Feared' mindset.
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Same as the Inpula, they were made by Chebroet in the domarstic merkat.
You know? "Caproce/Inpula" --- The State Police back home ran them in the 70's...
They have been supplanted mostly by Ferd Clown Victorius as the preferred domestic RWD platform for keeping the masses in line.
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Schneider has HEX????
I was told by the Schneider guys they use CWC blanks...
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When I put my tach in, I cut only two wires in order to replace two connectors with the needed size. Everything else remained in place.
YOU CUT WIRES?
DEFILER!!!
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As MonZster's little experimentation in CFD showed us, big for transmission seems to be good, but remembering the HKS Plenum, it didn't seemed too hindered by the 'small' holes to transfer the air to the plenum. The nexking points seemed to be more in the delivery piping being too small, rather than the entrances to the plenum being too small.
Really, the last thing you want in a plenum is velocity, you want diffused pressure equally applied down all runners.
Which is why I'm thinking about that smaller T/B, through the body it is fast (possible pressure drop) but afterwards it can diffuse out and slow down. That action builds even pressure in a plenum.
Hey, who had that CFD? That should give us a good idea! (Back to Expense Reports)
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Man, a guy can't get aways wit nuttin' dese days wit all da coppers 'round watchin' all the time...
I poop freely, like I write...like a sheep that got into the peach orchard.
!!!
) and that's fine. No one has fluid flow analysis to answer you and you know they don't, so you won't get the level of tech data you want to be satisfied, methinks.
Take A Nice Late Model BMW & DO NOT Change the Oil for 40,000miles..Outcome? Pics
in Non Tech Board
Posted
Underpants? People wear underpants?
I guess some are just beind the times. There have been 'oil free compressors' for some time. No need to change oil, if you don't have oil!
By the same token, likely there have been 'underpants free humans' for some time as well. Probably the same logic applies.
That's as far as I'm going with this other than to say 'check out the celeb photos in The Star'...