Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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In the center of the clutch hub there are (on an older VW) simply rivets and a solid center. Many 'racing' clutches incorporate this.
On most Domestic stuff, as well as all the 240/60/80 and 510 stuff I've worked on they all have clutch hubs like the newer VW's used: they have a series of springs and a thicker center hub that allows the friction facing part to compress these springs somewhat before transmitting motive force to the center hub with the tranny input shaft spline.
Solid Hub:
Sprung Hub:
I used a Sprung-Hub disc at the insistence of my engine builder, after having nothing but solid discs in my bus for 15+ years and I don't know how many miles.
I can tell you those springs popped out of the hub and locked up the works at 65,430 miles though! And a trouble free solid disc went back in...and my wife didn't know the difference!
The springs are supposed to soften engagement, and 'prevent chatter'...some of the higher end clutches use elastomeric dampers, or a combination of springs and elastomer. If you have a disciplined foot, a solid hub is just as easy to engage as a spring hub, and without a failure point.
What JeffP found in his hub was the springs compressed to a point where the hub had inertia, and was knocking against the rivets as a stop---and then driving the car. Bad Mojo! His new clutch doesn't do that by design and the disc is somewhat different in the spring configuration (dampers inside the spring). You can see the piece in the second photo that will 'knock' against the rivets. Compare the rivets holding disc to splined hub in the solid, versus the sprung hub and see what you decide about which is likely to hold up long term?
I'm thinking I suffered more clutch wear with a solid hub, but I NEVER had a solid hub fail like the Sprung-Hub did. More parts, more failures...that's what I see.
Make sense now? Gracias Amigo! ;^P
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First the revalation Justin is having sleepovers...
Now photos involving Mopars, Passed out Men, and Ponies Mounting something...
I now know him who they call Y0RGO at Z-Car.com!
LOL
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Obviously, Braap is not a student of the "Mach 5 School of Design"
Spritle and Chim Chim can fit in that battery box on the left side, and Trixie looks so cool on your arm driving it around...
And, just as a reminder, the Toyota 2000GT was a 60's vehicle.
If anything, the Tibiroun looks like a T2-GT not the 'other way 'round!
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It was kind of what I was getting at earlier in the thread as well.
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"Just look at his head, how many people have welded chambers on a street driven Z?...."
I guess I make that at least 2 people here in the USA...
In Japan? Back in the 80's almost every hot performance engine making power had a welded N42 in it...
I could pick them up in the scrap heap after a spark plug electrode let loose and scarred a chamber, etc, for 3000 yen (scrap value, about $15 at the time!)
Got an idea where I got my welded head from???
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S130 and S30 are...
Z31...what's that?
Is that even a Z? LOL
The parts bin doesn't change that much, two generations went along...I would guess they carried it on.
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My comment on the external oil modification was the relocation of the pickup to the side of the oil pan, then routing that externally via a -10 hose to a specially modified L-Series Pump Cover, through the pump, and then to the block via another -10 hose.
This totally bypasses all the restrictive gun-drilled galleys in the block, which can be restrictive. Stock pickup and feed to the filter galleys are plugged in this modification. The B-Car doesn't have it, but Sho-'Nuff did, an under 3L Hydro in the midwest that ran 9K+ rpms under marine loading conditions...far more serious duty than our land cars will see!
You mention oil pressure going away---is it possible there was a drainback issue causing the pump to pass aerated oil? high rpom engines use that larger sump as much for keeping the pickup submerged, as to give you a ready reservoir for higher rpm operation when you are pumping a lot of oil to the top end...and it takes the same time to drain back at 9000 as it does at 4500...problem is you have 2X the oil you're pumping.
This was the largest recommendation for the external routing of the pickup, to increase the volume moved.
I know I answered this in a PM earlier in the week, but for the rest of everybody who thought I was a butt for not responding...LOL
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It is absolutely possible to measure MOI!
Yeah, unless you are making mongo hp and torque, multiple discs are difficult to live with on the street. We have a triple disc clutch in our B-Car and it's 7.5" with a total flywheel, clutch, cover weight of 15#! Look at the pedal and it changes 2000rpms! LOL
"Serviceable" is a relative term. Mr. P is not happy with F-Wheel at this point in time...but what can you do? Make your own?
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i REALLY MISS BEING SINGLE AND ALONE!
Take a Travel Job, that will do it.
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This has been posted elsewhere. CARB is cracking down on certification on the el-cheapo aftermarket cats out there, and to do it they had to snag everyone.
Someone just tried to get a Volvo Cat, FROM THE DEALER, and was put on hold while they had to order a new 'California Compliant Catalyst' which likely is the exact same catalyst with documentation (since they are an OEM)...
Before it got some pass, it was insane to be able to make a cat, and have a two-tiered system for longevity. Stock Cats now have to last 100K miles or 10 years, formerly they were 5 years 50K miles.
And there were 'universal catalysts' out there???????
The loophole was closed, and CA wants replacement aftermarket pieces to last for more than a year.
It was not uncommon for a replacement cat to die before the next smog check. But for only $149 hey! What a deal! Right?
Dealer's Catalysts were more along the line of $1200...
One would net you $400 in the scrap yard, the other one the scrap man would laugh at you and give you 0.16 cents for the stainless steel shell!
There was a difference. Sucks to be a catalyzed car and have to buy a catalyst that is no longer supplied by the OEM....but the upside is that what you will have available from this point going forward will at least last some time period more than the next smog test!
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Guess what? Last year at the Euro AG Trade Show CAT showed off just such a device, where a small turbine in the exhaust downstream of the turbocharger was geared directly to the engine through a 'fluid coupling' for power recovery/increased crankshaft horsepower!
Just like that old Constellation...
"There is nothing new!"
LOL
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"It would be nice if someone had a real number in a catalog or something as opposed to either of our recollections..."
Ask and you shall receive:
CF Steel SFI Rated Flywheel is 25.4#-Part Number 700800
CF Aluminum SFI Rated Flywheel is 12.5#-Part Number 800800
From the 2009 Midway Industries Online Catalog, though it claims not to be for a "2+2" but I know people who have gotten both 240 and 225mm Flywheels from them, and since the only difference is bolt patterns for the cover and friction surface, I don't see that adding up to a 16# wheel under any circumstances. MSA has always advertized them as 13#, which follows to the 12.5# number in ther factory documentation.
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The Kameari is Chrome Moly, and has more holes on the outside for morewindage cooling of the clutch assembly...(tic)
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Interesting pricing, must be a different Centerforce/Midway Industries unit. Mine was only $345 and was aluminum at #13.
Maybe you are discussing their billet steel SFI rated model? That may be more.
I have the Midway/Centerforce Flywheel on three Z's right now, the Tilton 11# on one, a "roughly" 15# JDM Lightened Stocker on one, and Two HKS and one Kameari flyhweel sitting in the wings for 'lightening exercises" in the future, but have driven several vehicles with the HKS.
All within the last year or two at the outside.
I'm thinking my recollection, since more recent, may be fresher?
I could not explain how my JDM Stocker revved quicker than the Centerforce unit, other than the way it was lightened. They both have the exact same clutch cover assembly and are both 225mm sized as well. I'm open to other explanations if anybody is willing.
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Jeebus, it must be spring break here as well...
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Kameari has an integral ring gear, it is not replaceable, same as the old HKS units.
When you have the HKS unit in your hand, you go 'wow, this is light', then when I hand you the Kameari Race unit, you say 'holy shite!'
The old 9# HKS units I felt were acceptable for an L28 in street usage, but that was about the limit for streetability. The Kameari race unit might be a tad light, especially with a grabby clutch.
As for reliability and not looking at it for 100K miles....you're setting up unreasonable expectations for a performance setup, and for a fractured flywheel if you have a lightened stocker! A performance engine is INTENDED to be inspected regularly. I know people who were changing two stock clutch discs a MONTH in their street cars in Japan because they were wearing them out that fast. Stock weight flywheel.
Get a grippier clutch, something has got to give. Face wear on the PP, or the flywheel, something... Thinking you can assemble it and forget it will have you spending more than what you are considering now with these units!
I'm not saying anything would be wrong with it...but to think a high coefficient of friction disc would just happily take abuse and hard driving with sticky tires and not have SOMETHING wear if unreasonable.
Someone we all know pulled his engine out (again) and found the RIVETS of his very expensive metallic clutch were LOOSE! Seems 5 days doing pulls on the dyno and 25-50 Drag Launches killed it in less than 2000 miles.
Lots of money, and it died. BECAUSE he was doing other maintenence and inspected it, he found the rivets before they sheared or let go and let the disc....well...you know!
With his PP, there was 0.010" wear, as was his Fidanza Flywheel. New facing on the Fidanza installed with 75 Inch-Pounds on the fasteners and it was ready to go after Fidanza screwed around sending the wrong facing and then refusing to warranty the flywheel, and charged him another $80 to redrill the facing bolts because the holes were different in the friction surface from later flywheels. Cost him as much in shipping to get it quickly as it would have cost for another new flywheel! The PP was a different matter, but for only $150 it was replaced with a 2200# unit.
The disc? It's now using 3/8" grade 8 bolts to hold the components together instead of rivets, and uses a design that doesn't let the rivets bash against the hub when the springs totally compress.
You Datsun Guys and your sprung hubs. I swear. Drive a solid disc like the VW guys do and you don't have to worry about your springs compressing...and if you have any competence with your left foot control and clutch release, it drives just as nice as a sprung hub, with less to go wrong!
But I digress... My other comments have been reporduced above and stand on their own. And I didn't say the 15# stocker revved as fast as the Tilton, but that it was more like the Tilton's Response than the lighter 13# Centerforce unit. Yes, that means the 15# revs faster than the 13#, that IS what I was saying. It IS possible.
Weight is not as important as where it's removed. I had a diagram someplace on sectioning a stock flywheel, and how mine is done is FAR different than most lightened units I have seen here in the USA. Frankly, if there is more than 3/8" thickness (say 10mm) they haven't lightened it as much as possible. And if there is still a square edge near the ring gear, they haven't lightened it in the most IMPORTANT area. Think of a 45 ange UNDER the ring gear to a 10mm thick facing, along with a mating taper breaking the square edge starting from the outer rim of the clutch cover bolt holes... Those two things remove quite a significant amount of weight were it has MOST effect. If you don't have those done on your lightened stock flywheel, you have something that is underpeforming compared to what you could have, IMO.
For the record, I buy Craftsman Tools because they are cheaper and they break JUST AS OFTEN AS SNAP ON DOES!
When you HAVE to take one back...and you will...you're out of pocket less money.
You were right in your analogy, kind of...you just are neglecting to realize nothing lasts forever, so if you spend a bundl of money on it...you're likely just out a bundle of money because it will break just like anything else. This is especially applicable to automobiles and their components.
It's not a matter of not breaking, it's a matter of what you will have to do when it inevitably breaks or requires overhaul.
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You base that on one response you got?
Our testing on the short course you mention has proven otherwise.
You should not be 'shifting near the wall', you should be dragraced to almost near top speed before the end of mile one---where decreased rotational inertia helps you UP to speed. Then you will inch up making another 1 or 2mph through mile two, and maybe more or less the same (if you are very lucky) through mile three. Unless you are grossly underpowered, there wont be much 'shifting' after mile marker one. And for sure mile marker two! You are not planning on running a 50cc two-stroke streamliner, are you?
After getting up to near top speed rotational inertia beecomes your friend. Problem is, that is more applicable to the long course where you are still accelerating through mile three, and at the same point you are at mile 1 in the short course. While accelerating hard, less mass is your friend. Once to speed to maintain it, mass again becomes your friend. in other words, less helps you more than more. If you have a humongo powerplant, maybe running heavy things will help you. But with lower horsepower cars (under say 5-600hp) the less rotating mass you have the better!
The HP you 'gain' from lightening your pistons will be on the order of say 20 hp to be more than generous. It will do NOTHING significant for you in terms of top speed, as over 150mph you need MUCH MORE than that to make a difference.
But lower rotational inertia on the wheels and flywheel will accelerate you quicker to near top speed, which is FAR more important than a measly 20HP.
Do ANY calculation you want and justify how much more top speed you will get from 20HP at 150mph on a car like the Z or a 58 Buick Roadmaster for that matter!
I noted the guy said he did 'research' and 'from what he was told'....
Whereas I posted concrete numbers resulting in the changes we made.
I see that as a difference in the two posts.
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
That was a riot!
I often thought that same thing during some of the scenes: "are these guys putting it on, or are they just a switchback away from a sexual-tension embrace?"
ROMAFLOL
This one got sent to people Via E-Mail.
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You should have thought about this a couple of weeks ago and taken a 50$ one-way Southwest Flight to Ontario! You can't buy the GAS for that much!
go to GroupZ.com, and download the newsletter from this month (April)
Basically, it starts with a kickoff BBQ friday night at the MSA parking lot, then Saturday there is a big scratch-and-dented merchandise sale in their back lot while the driving school is going on at MCAS ElToro, with a dinner at the Rib trader in Orange that evening. During the scratch and dent sale they wil lhave tents up in the lot in front to detail your car and wash it for the show the next day.
Show opens to the public at 9AM and is at the same venue as last year Oak Glen park or shady glen something like that. I can drive you there, I just can't tell you what it's called! LOL
Friday the 24th of April starting around 7pm till the show on Sunday the 26th of April which ends around 3pm. Come see the Blue Turd on '260 Island'---you can't miss the BIG YELLOW OVERTAKING FLAG painted with krylon on the hood! LOL
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What am I missing? I got 17 psi by 1700rpms, and would get 21psi by 2000 rpms if I set the controller there.
And that was in 1985.
Single turbo. No, it didn't flow 800HP of air, but then again that was using a 70's era design turbo as well. I'm sure there would be much better flow numbers available using todays wheel cuts.
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Dirty hands are for dirty people.
Not to mention the CLEANER YOU AND YOUR SHOP/WORK AREA ARE, the cleaner your work will be (craftsmanship quality if you will).
The assumption here is that what you are working on is dirty!
If your car is not a WRC Champion, then it should be clean enough that gloves are not a requirement...
On teardowns and dirty work, yeah various gloves...
But after it's cleaned, not a big deal unless solvents are involved...
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I like the hood on the blue car, that was the first application I thought of looking at the other craigslist photo: "That would make for a nice radiator duct area that far back..."
From Poop, Comes Flowers!
I'm philosophical these days...LOL
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A ute is only a shipping container away!
And believe me, I've been considering it... A nice older Holden Ute. Gaaaaarrrrrgh! Vintage tow vehicle!
LOL
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I would really like to see a side-by-side comparison of both mirrors though, to see if there's ANY difference besides the chrome or matte black finish.
There isn't---if you are discussing between Matte and Stainless from the same model. I think Alan is mistaken on his contention that Stainless/Chrome mirrors were never offered for the S30===maybe not OEM from the factory, but most definately from the Sports Option aspect Nissan did offer them for the S30 and S31's. The bases are what is different between models, though. My son's 510 model bases are totally different than my S30 Bases. And the early models are even more disparate.
I see you figured out the adjustment---was it the screw? Don't forget to tighten it back up. Some joker bumps your mirror and you're looking at the pavement during a lane-change and it's no fun at all!
Rev happy Flywheel / clutch choices for street use.
in Nissan L6 Forum
Posted
driveshafts and wheels/tires were discussed earlier...