Tony D

actually no, the industry standard currently is to bolt parts on and see what they produce. JeffP bolted his pipe on, and got a bump of 20hp. That is "bolt on HP" in the purest sense of the word. We are not talking about some crappy restrictive exhaust cobbled up by joe on the corner, we are talking about a functioning as designed OEM unit that someone did a fair and comparative test on. And it was done on a stock car. It was a test to determine "first step" capabilities. I think it succeeded. This modification alone on a stock ZXT will be the basis on which to build further---which was Jeff's goal. How many people stupidly turn up the boost FIRST? We all did it, admit it! But then later we go and screw with the exhaust, and then our boost numbers go everywhere, or the engine overboosts and we go lean---boom! If the exhaust was done first which was the point of Jeff's test and philosophy, yhou are much better off. Thusfar he has supported 450+hp on that pipe, so you know it will work on a wide range of applications. A piece you buy ONCE, and not replace again in a few years because you "outgrow it"! People many times say "oh this part added this much"---well show me the dyno sheet. JeffP did, because he was curious and did ONE mod to see what would happen. You are all assuming his boost went up 1 psi, and it may well have. Fact of the matter is it was because of the exhaust so the claim is valid! I mean we are hearing over and over that one vendor's intake setup is better that stock. Yet there are no dyno charts to prove it, only subjective opinions. That smells to me. When someone can do an before an after comparo, then it has a bit more credibility. But like I said earlier, the 1psi may explain why the 20 hp is there, but the fact still remains the modification that made it possible was the exhaust. I personally am running a 2.5" mandrel bent MSA system on my wife's car. I am curious to see what it runs the dyno at when it finally makes it over there. It's quiet, that's all she cares about, and it FIT right on the stock turbo downpipe right after the double layered section, so I was happy too! I know the gain is probably not going to be that great if I replace the whole exhaust with 3". But I believe my gains from a replaced downpipe (Scottie GNZ Style) will be more fruitful than a total exhaust swap anyway. And when that mod gets done I can put the electric cutout on the downpipe, and scare the hell out of little kids and old ladies as I see fit. 3" Exhaust? We don't need no stinkin' exhaust!

I posted a reply on a similar thread earlier. Our Bonneville car had a Clifford 4BBl manifold for it's first record. Soon thereafter it was swapped out for triple DCOE Webers. When we got off ElMirage and went to Bonneville for the second time for the serious records we were running Tec2 with EFI and 45mm TWM itb's. The engine made 40HP more than the Webers at 8250rpm, and was over 300Hp to the rear wheels. BUT.... There was a guy posting at ZC.C under the screen name Andrei who built a stroker, and spent a lot of money for HKS 45mm ITB's, as well as an SDS setup (which I bought off him later) only to be disappointed with his performance. He "only" made 30 more HP than he did when he had a 4BBL manifold on it (252 or so vs 220 or so with the 4bbl) at a power peak of 6250rpm. For a street car, the 4bbl will work, you just have to play with it. Dave at AZZ talked around it, but wouldn't come out and say his setup is NOT the hot ticket for all out performance, he would only say "12 second 1/4 mile times are not applicable to the discussion, or not what this was designed for" So in other words, you WILL be donw on power with a 4bbl compared to triples, and the can of worms exists if you will be up or even on power compared to a set of SU's. Thusfar nobody has tested the setup. I hgave tested the Clifford, and the Cannon (Cannon, was hideous, we actually threw it in the TRASH!) But reading spark plugs for mixture distribution is stone age compared to aircraft instrumentation and EGT monitoring during a dyno pull---and with even the Clifford there were cylinder to cylinder variances.... I would be interested to instrument another engine and do the pulls to see just how much of Dave's sales pitch is hype and how much is B.S. For a stroker where the power level will be reached below 6500rpms, I would say for as street car, the $ bbl would perform decently, but you would be down on power starting around 4500rpms (if our testing with the Clifford holds true to the AZZ intake as well) BTW, we ended up running an 1100cfm Predator off a 500CID 11-second Cadillac V-8 on that manifold because the 390CFM unit was simply WAAAAAY undersized for our needs! Calculators say one thing, but actual real world dyno pulls say another!

9000rpms? Hardly! When you dyno test it, the 390 will start loosing power compared to triples as early as 4500rpms! As the rpms go up, so does the disparity. When we were doing initial developmental work on our Bonneville Car, we briefly had a Clifford manifold on it, and kept going to progressively larger four barrels, ultimately using a Predator that we horked off a 500CID Cadillac engine that was used for bracket racing! That got us our first world record at ElMirage in 1999, but the power just was not there on the top end. We swapped to 45DCOE webers, and pickd up 17HP at 6500 if memory serves correctly. Made a peak of 250+ at 7500rpms. When we went from DCOE's to a Tec2 and 45mm TWM throttle bodies, there was almost a 40hp difference between the Webers adn the TWM stuff! (ultimately 315+hp at 8250rpm) For anyone making statements about kicking people in the nuts for hanging a four barrel on a Nissan Six, learn a bit of history: The Nissan L is derived from a Mercedes Licenced product. Mercedes used a four barrel VERY successfully on their passenger cars with their SOHC 2.8L inline six. Were the meatheads designing manifolds for the Nissan to look a bit closer at the Mercedes design they could learn a bit. In either case, for ultimate power, if you can stand to give up the ultimate power (I know another person who had a 3.1 Stroker, and the difference between HKS ITB's with an SDS and the four barrel was 30HP, 224-vs-255hp at 6250rpms) the four barrel will work fine for a streeter, Just don't dissillusion yourself into believeing it's a "hot ultimate setup" like many of the salesmen make it out to be. i would be interested in seeing dyno numbers from the Arizona Manifold. Lately there has been quite a buzz about that manifold, and claims made, but nobody is posting dyno figures, or comparing apples to apples...

As long as you get the proper fuel pressure regulator to drop the pressure to the carburettors' range (3-4psi) then the stock EFI fuel system will provide plenty of flow and fuel for any carb setup. You will get more HP and Torque on a stock motor with a set of Mikuinis (about 10% bump according to the Mikuini Literature of the day) as compared to a 22% jump over Mikuinis installed on an SU equipped car. Now that is stock for stock, unaltered. If you tinker with the stock EFI and simply get it in proper tune, you can generate decent numbers, and have excellent drivability with no downside. You want induction noise? Take the air cleaner off and install one of the ricer cold-air kits. It lets the intake growl nicely. My stock EFI equipped L28 puts down 147HP to the wheels, the only modifications I have are a K&N Air Filter (in the stock housing), a TWM Big Throat Throttle Body (more for tip in feel than HP), and the MSA headpipe from the stock N42 exhaust manifold going to a press-bent 2.5" (I think) exhaust with two mufflers (pre muffler 36" glasspack and a Dynomax out back). The setup runs 15.30 in the 1/4 mile with my 330# butt in it, in a 1975 2+2, so the Dynojet ain't off by far I guess... So EFI (stock) ain't all that bad, and if you add a cam (reasonable) along with maybe some porting and compression increases you can tweak that stock system to do quite a bit. But even stock (if you believe Mikuinis numbers) you stand to make 170 from the same car... My car did seem to pull harder with the triple Webers on it (I took em off to install the stock EFI!) but that may have been the effects of the sound. It sure did attract more attention then...

he he he, YEP, they are the same size! The "22% larger intake runner size on the turbo manifolds" is an internet urban legand/myth!

I was referring to Ross Pistons a manufacturer. Another secret is to search through pistonsizes in catalogs. You will find several common US Spec engine with proper pin and offset, that allow you to buy a set of pistons (usually 8...) for DIRT CHEAP. A set of forged slugs with rings for a Small Block Chevy is CHEAP, almost half the price of a Z set in some cases... Anyway, if you find the right combination that allows the manufacturer to work from a standard forged slug they buy in quantity, then ordering a "custom set of 4.3L V-6 Chevy Pistons with this pin heigh and these ring configurations" is usually waaay cheaper than going to any manufacturer and utteringthe word "Datsun"! The Ross Pistons were $450 last time I checked, but Weisco and JE also have lowcost forged slugs if you BUY DIRECT FROM THEM, and know what you want! You have to do some measuring and searching to find the combos (I am in Venezuela right now and have absolutely no access to any of my notes...) that will get you pistons for far cheaper than even these prices. Gone are the days when TRW Forged Piston Kits were available for the 164CID Chevrolet Corvair! Forged slugs, set of 6, $150! Or the Chevy Vega, those were OEM pistons that were FORGED, and sold for $20 from the local GM DEALER! Ahhh, the good old days. But there is stuff out there that will work, you just have to put effort into finding it! Good Luck with the build!

What does the boos level matter on a stock test? If you bolt on the 3" exhaust, and run the car, whatever results you achieve will be directly from bolting on the one part. To understand where the power comes from you may look at boost levels and say "AHA!" but alas, in JeffP's case the increase was only.... 8-10HP/PSI! LOL On another note, it looks as though this is gross hp readings. You are comparing turbo to turbo, right? Meaning you look at a stock turbo motor and say "O.K., I up the boost from 5 to 10, and then chart my total hp and divide by 10"? I would think it would be a ratio, or at least compared to an N/A engine. The Dynojet says my N/A runs around 145, if the stock reading are right for turbo cars I can't figure out the disparity in HP levels, but that's beside the point. So then I take the 145 I started with, put 5psi on top of it, and I get.... 8-10, or now we are saying 13-17? So 5psi gives me almost 100 more HP over a stock N/A engine? I would think it would be closer to 200HP at the end of the day with 5psi, and not 230. So I think the way you are quantifying the results of your test may be the explanation of the disparity in results. Whatsay everyone?

I would watch the quench areas of the combustion chamber in the head and just knuckle under and get good forged pistons. Dished pistons aren't really optimal in design for good combustion chamber flame propogation. I think the flat tops, and paying attention to the quench ares in the head will pay off. It's all pretty academic, IMO if you are shooting for 2X stock HP in an engine, the internals should be slightly beefier! Ergo: Flat Top Forged Pistons. They needn't be as expensive as all that, Ross has a nice set for around $450 I believe. There are some vendors out there (middlemen) who rape people for little or nothing in return. Have you taken a look at JeffP's Extreme280ZXT website? I don't know if he has a shot of his pistons, they have a matched dish to mirror the combustion chamber so the quench area of the head squeezes all the combustibles into that Combustion Chamber/Dish area for combustion. With a full-on dish, you don't get that effect. Though the Euro Turbo pistons and their little "Divot" in the center of the dished piston does make on wonder what they were up to there.... 350 to 400 will be doable, I'd worry about durability myself. You can do it on stock components, but not for very long. What you may consider is running your stock ZXT engine while learning to tune the TEC3, and eventually when the knocking from the pistons comes around, hopefully you will have mastered the art of tuning it, and have saved the money for a proper set of pistons. This is how I'm tuning my car, doing all the learning on stock ZXT engines, and as they break, into the "core pile" they go, giving me plenty of stuff to work with when the time comes for the final build.

Nope, no fight picking here, directly on the topic at hand, directly from post #1 originated by "Mr. Chopsticks"(Hashi). I mentioned 432R model because that was what was specifically mentioned in Hashi's original post. To wit: "My goal is to do a successful Fairlady Z 432R conversion...I'd probablly have trouble getting my hands on a 432R motor, as well as getting it in...rhd, right?" Don't say people are not listening to what you are saying when in fact, you are off topic here. The question was "to make a 432R Replica". Not a run of the mill 432! And whatever sources you are deriving your information on the 432R horsepower ratings, they are woefully innaccurate. There was a 432 model available that was specifically designed for high octane (racing gas) operation which was available in the base model 432's, but in no means was this a 432R! the PS30SB is a dsignation and VIN coding distinct and available to the general public. While fully tuned racing versions of the 432R were indeed equipped with Lucas-Style slide valve mechanical fuel injection and put out well over 320HP, the more "sedate" base models that were sent out to privateers (like I said, Ford Thunderbolt...) with carburettors and only made around 240 HP. Hashi asked about a 432R model, and that is what we are talking about. 432 engines are expensive, sure. Try finding the 432R versions with special cams, etc etc etc... When I can look at a rocket box full of FI cams from 432R's from a guy who bought one new from the dealer I can only take his word for what he says. All I know is what I saw from personal experience. He didn't run them on the street, because they were "too wild" though the R-Camset he DID have in his Run of the Mill 432 DID make it more peppy than the normal 432 with 160ps... The 432 was a sound, solid, foundation, needing only some cam and induction changes for massive power jumps. Not unlike the RB26DETT in today's Skyline.

LOL Then you know what I'm saying, and perhaps the issue was better never being mentioned! LOL

I hate to say this, but after the "help" I recieved when it was a Yahoo Groups site, I'm not too keen about going there any more... In any case, I would bend over, as from what I read on EFHAL's post on Pg4, it's a PD controller, and he has a good explanation of what it'd doing there. The Differential Gain setpoint indeed is a derivitave setpoint, and therfore will be VERY touchy and jittery to minute changes. The concept seems to be to use P and then D to slow the response to prevent overshoot. I would read EFHAL's post on Pg 4 GMHeinrik on the same page, specifically the post on dutycycle MattDupis on Pg 8 GMHeinrik on Page 10 For me, giving up the failsafe of INJ2 channel for Boost control doesn't look to be in the cards for me. I know a Z will run on three cylinders and get me home, but not on zero cylinders! Like I said, I like pneumatic boost controllers! LOL

I used a pertronix flamethrower offroad HEI module. that baby throws a 4" long spark to the PCV HOSE! (Did you know the PCV Hose is conductive rubber? Neither did I!) Makes a nice "poof" of smoke when it does so. I am using an 87 Z31 Turbo Coil. The guys at Nissan Comp Department told me it was the hottest coil Nissan Made, and it's what thye use in most every stock configured racer they field. Thusfar I have been VERY happy about the performance. I think I paid $45 at a local speed shop because I had to have it NOW (ironic, isn't it given my circumstances...) because I didn't like the orangeish spark given to me by the Autozone / Wells Stocker that was $13. I like bluewhite with a POP! Not orange-ish with a "Fitz!" I figured I can always use the spare Wells unit if the 81 CAS didn't work out, and I needed another unit to trigger from a magnet or hall effect sensor... I would order from Summitt Racing Online, or Jegs. They are V8 parts, and those places are GIVING the V-8 Crap away!

mario, that is an anti-backfire and fuel economy measure. You have settings basically approximating the last scenario, which is the only one you really needed to worry about. The other two are anti-HC spiking control algorithms to lower emissions. If you aren't really coasting much or heavily decelerating constantly it will make little difference.

Yep! It's getting it to the ground, not hazing the tires thorugh second gear that makes for quick times! Though for spectators it sure is entertaining! Yeah, John, he was in your group! He was probably hiding in the shadow of one of my legs... But I thought it was Ian who got sick from the fumes... he sure played it off big to suck sodas from the "blue chest of plenty at Spa Dighera" up on the front straightaway! LOL

Oh, and in my defense about leaving DLP out of my little book... Last dealings I had with DLP had to be 9 or 10 years ago when he recurved a distributor for me. While I know people who accepted delivery of a custom cam grids from Isky within the last month or so (in the same price range mentioned)... So I claim "most recent memory syndrome"! DLP totally slipped my mind, and I should have known better. Don can be...uh....well, some people take him wrong when they first meet him. I like him, but can see why he is the way he is, and I can accept that. De did not dub himself "The Curmudgeon" from lack of other terms used to describe him by others! LOL

You bastard! You are the devil incarnate! Now I know how Ian feels when I danlge tidbits I find on E-Bay in front of him all the time! You are not in collusion with Ian to stop me from this tendency, are you? LOL Right now, I am in Venezuela, and up to my ankles in funeral trip debt, and nephew graduation trip debt, so no goodies for Tony until I get some of it knocked down to a managable level... Good luck on the auction, though, that is a nice piece, and would look good in the 71, 75, or 78 RHD vehicle..... Muahahaha! Why on earth did you sell the Box? I would have lost nuts to keep that. And my friend working in Aberdeen right now would have probably traded you his three Z's and his girlfriend as well as ex wife for that car! Now I have to "cut and paste" you post into an e-mail and send it to him to let him know a Box Skyline was in Md, and he didn't even know about it! LOL

OMFG! YOU ARE DEADLY RIGHT! I hope he still returns my calls! DLP Engineering IS one of the innovators! ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! A BIG (HUGE) OMISSION on my part! Sorry!

WHAT YEAR ZXT? If the donor engine is an 81, you can crank and twist the distributor all you want, and it won't do a darned bit of good as the CAS is triggered on an 81 from the front pulley and a different CAS pickup point! So before I went down any road, I'd clarify which engine it is! Even though you say it's an 82, it's not some strange NY titled beast that sat on the lot for a year before being sold, and is a "closet 81"? IS there a CAS under the cover inside the distributor, and IS there NO CAS bracket under the AC idler pullley? If that is the case, and you truly DO have a distributor mounted CAS, you should be able to gain approx 60 degrees advance by tweaking the dizzy. If you are not sure, just start with the basics, make sure it's set up with the Rotor Cap Pahsing hole aligned. If the engine is not at 20 then, start looking for why, because it shouldbe very close. a 10 degree move of that dizzy is a 20 degree move on the spark timing trigger point! The possibility exists that it may be off a tooth, but verify placement of the TIMING MARK on your pulley, and make sure the ELASTOMER has not shifted giving you spurious readings! So yes, set it to TDC, if for nothing else, to VERIFY your timing mark! THAT is your first step!

what's and arm, leg and firstborn child going for in NorCal these days? Here in SoCal Autozone asks around $240 for a reconditioned CAS for an 83, and the dizzy shaft may still be available from Nissan for all that's worth! I would bet the conversion can be done using "new and warranted parts" for under $300!

common to keep vacuum systems segregated from boost. Your setup should be easy enough, find the FSM, and then copy the checkvalve placement for the Turbo Version 200SX! I mean, you already got a diagram from the factory engineers, what more could you ask for? For me and my 260Z with factory Air, the standard check valves worked fine, and the larger vacuum reservoir held more than enough vacuum to sustain heater control position under periods of extended boost. If you get paranoid about boost and vacuum, you can always add the vacuum pump and supplementary reservior from an 82/83ZXT if you can find a place under the hood for it!

"but for decent parts id have to buy from a group of different people..." And the problem with buying the best parts from the best suppliers of each individual part is what exactly? LOL

What is their definition of "Differential Gain" as I'm betting it's somehow the same as Integral. If they don't have some sort of intgral compensation, it's why the pressure-based algorithm will never work. PWM may be the Time-Based "I" in the equation, but it would be a strange way of doing it. Normally PWM is the output. On a PID controller, the OUTPUT is affected by the loops. And I suspect the PWM is changed by P+I+D=O BAH! RESET RATE will be your INTEGRAL! They are using mixed Pneumatic and Electronic Terminology! On a PNEUMATIC controller, you have Porp, Reset, and Anti-Windup Reset (lets not go down this path!) Anyway, What I said about Integral applies to Reset Rate in an inverse fashion. Instead of being Offset from Setpoint/Time you simply ramp up the Reset Rate to make the Porportional Reset close on the target setpoint faster, and use the Differential as you would Integral to close the final "differential gap" once the Porportional controls to the always-present offset point I mentioned earlier! I'll lay money that is how they are controlling it! They are basically all the same, there are only so many things you can do to the thing to control it...

Here in Venezuela the Sin Plomb gas is 77 octane and costs about 20 cents per gallon...... There are lost of Impalas, Torinos, and Dodge Darts here... But I digress. There is the argument of "low compression" versus "high compression"... Most people use the argument that lower compression allows you to "run more boost" to make horsepower. This is true. But to what extremes are we going to take the argument. An 8 or 8.5:1 compression engine will easily take 20psi of boost. And what are we making by that point? 350, 400HP? E'motive in 1983 with stone age electronics made 580HP at 7500rpm, on 20.6 pounds of boost, using racing gas, and a compression ratio ABOVE the stock ZXT of the day (considerably more if you talk with the people involved). So the question becomes, in my mind at least, "How much money do you want to spend?" If you spend the money on head work and a cam, 580HP is waiting at 20-psi, but ASSUREDLY NOT at 7.4:1 compression ratio! You can get decent performance from a stock compression turbo, but for the money the drivability and spooling capabilities of a higher compression engine seem to win out when you weigh it. There really should be no trade-off in the octane scare between 7.4 and 8.5. I would personally waste my time with anything below 8.0! The naysayers about "higher boost levels" might want to do a reality check and actually ask "how much boost do I terminally want to run?" For someoen going with 45psi, then yeah, I might say 7's would be in order. For someone with an inefficient intercooler? Maybe no more than 8:1. But for someone pushing a hybrid turbo and a decent intercooler on even 90 octane, I would shoot for the stock N/A drivability that 8.5:1 offers off-boost. Nothing is more discouraging to hear than some idiot with a well-tuned stocker say "I got him out of the hole till the boost come on!" Lets' not let those N.A. guys ever have the ability to say that! In a roundabout way what I am trying to say isn't really about boost. It's about total mass flow through the engine. The power is, and always will be, in the HEAD of the L-Engine. A properly ported L-Head running 17# of boost will make more power than an unported engine running 20+. I have an acquaintance that did a before and after dyno test (headwork only). After retuning the TEC2 for the new flowing configuration, the SAME engine using the SAME turbo, and basically the SAME everything save for the portwork and runners in the intake manifold made more HP at 17# than he did at 21# before! (BTW, this was on an engine with 8:5:1 Slugs) So the "More Boost means more power" line of thinking is a bit corrupted. My training has (since I work in Compressed Air and Gasses for a living) always been that "pressure is the resistance to flow! The less resistance you have to flow, the more efficiently you transport air... So in some cases, LESS boost means MORE power! On the test vehicle, it assuredly did!