Gollum

Now if aux would only finish his B13 you could find out how a rotary feels in a Z.... Now you've got some incentive aux. Finish the car and come w00p my azz. I want you to know jl87ma, what you're sacrifising for your goals. HP/MPH. A NA 2.0 liter motor will not get 300hp efficiantly. A 300hp force induction 2.0 liter motor would be considerable less NA, we'll guess around 180-220. So with 300 hp force induced you get the low RPM miles per gallon of a 200hp motor but the high RPM HP of a 300hp one. This is one of the biggest benefits you're throwing out the window. Another thing you're going to be throwing out the window is full RPM power. Either way NA of FI you'll be going to high RPM to get power in a low displacement motor. In street driving rudypoochris's 5.0 240Z would probly beat the same 240Z that has a 4 cylinder with 50 more hp. Full range tourque can have a huge impact on street driving. It makes a car much less streetable, but it also means low HP can push wide gears much easier. So what your engine wants set in stone for you is that your car will be: 1. Poor gas milage if high HP is attained 2. Normal gas milage at normal or slightly above normal HP 3. Poor low RPM accelleration 4. Linear acceleration (great for a track car) 5. Easy/simple maintainence 6. Bulletproof (if accompanied by rev limiter or conscious) And in the end, RPM limit isn't determined by cylinder count. Oh, and rotary engines are reliable, just not past 60k miles Under those requirements I'd go with a KA24DE, tons of tourque. But it's also 2.4 liters, not a small 4 cylinder. And it pays it's price in gas milage.

Man, these motors seem to be in the back of everyone's mind latelly. I'm looking into a swap into my S130 but right now I don't have the money to get the project rolling. I'll probly be going turbo charged IF I can fit them. Otherwise I'll stay under the 400hp NA mark. Wich is fine. Either way I'll be able to smog it. I don't have much more info other than what you've probly found already. There's a company making supercharger "kits" (far from bolt on kits) in australia. http://www.lextreme.com/sc.html Lextreme is a decent source for info/parts, but there are others. I've also seen a modern roots style setup done. I personally favor the centrifugal type for supercharger but i've seen insane power from roots too, so either way is fine, it's just preferrence. Keep us updated with info if you do the swap. I'd like to see your project progress and find out what mountains you run into. I think the stock bottom end will hold 650-700 hp, but you might want to look into reducing the rotating mass weight so the pistons don't take so much of a beating. Just a thought. Just remember, above 13 or so PSI you're playing russian roulet on stock compression ratio. Lextreme offeres dish pistons if you need them. EDIT: ( i just hate creating more posts sometimes after someone else posts) My main concern against supercharging is streetability. Turbos can be programed thus giving you some low HP RPM to drive around town with. I guess I just like having traction in the rain unlike some.

^ Did I say hondas can't be fast? Ahem, :stands on soap box: "Proud builder of street driven 11 sec hondas." :steps down from soap box: Doesn't change the fact that most honda drivers are idiots. It's ok, I love mustangs and most mustang fans are idiots too.

The B16 can be done fairly cheep. Motor/tranny/wiring harness even JDM shouldn't cost more than $1300 if you're shopping in the right place. The problem is so many places sell for more, so finding the good places can be hard. If I were looking for a B16 I wouldn't spend a penny over 1k for motor/tranny from japan and then spend the little bit of money for all your wiring. It's hard to find JDM motors with uncut hardness (many of them advertise uncut, but they really are cut. A turbo system isn't going to be much if at all cheeper. It will be alot easier though. stock bottom end should be able to take 200hp forever and not become a weak link. And a 150hp CRX should be in the mid-low 14s wich isn't too slow for a 30mpg commuter. I'd still take a B16 for the way it revs, but there are still cheeper resolutions for power. Frankenstein motors are nice. Lots more tourqe and cheeper than a B16 swap. You take the B16 head and mate it to an LS B18A block. This gives you a cheep block that will take enough HP potential within reason and adds the high rev ability of the Vtech head. Great street combo.

jl87na: I think the reason so many of us here have accused you of "fallowing the crowd" is becase many of your wants/needs don't add up. Wich is a tendency of people that only know what they've read from the major mags. This doesn't mean those are the only people that have convoluted wants, just the main type. I personally think you should be looking for a motor that can make it into the 300hp range easily and then go beyond that if needed later on. You'll end up with lots of options, as opposed to NO options for 500hp/high rev/cheep. Frankly, any 500hp motor isn't gonna be "cheep" to my definition. Maybe "value practicality", but not cheep still. A cheep motor is one that costs less than 1/4th the car's value. My car is probly worth around 3-4k (low miles 37k) and thus anything below 1k I would call cheep. There aren't tons of motors that fall into this catagory. Junkyard maybe, but no money for mods. Now, this rule changes if you look at "invested dollors." In this case you might end up having a 20k budget for a rebuild. In this senario I'd budget 3k for motor/tranny, 2k for needed parts/fabrication, 5k for suspension, 4k for body work, remainder for tools/small parts required. I think that would be a realistic budget break down. Now, on HZ we get tons of people that say "i've got XX budget" and it's usually far less money than what they'll need for thier ideas/dreams. If you've got 5k don't expect much. You might be able to get a nice motor in, but the car is gonna handle like crap still and it's going to be all the more noticable because now you've got a motor that pushes the car harder. A truly fast car is about balance. If you wanted a balance Z with a 500hp/high reving/reliable car I think you'd end up spending well into the 30k range. Even if you did 100% work/fabrication youself I'd guess around 25k. If you had a buisness license and got wholesale on everything you might be able to knock a good 4-5k off that. But even that would be optimistic. Johnc is probly one of the most knoledgable people I've met here. I'd kinda like to here a price quote from him for a suspention that could match and keep up with a 500hp Z.

OUCH!... I've watched a guy that I KNOW couldn't drive take an evo into the 13.9s... That guy must of really sucked. I see your point though.

Well when I'm making money I'll buy an extige and we'll go club race together 8) I understand all drivers crash, but lift oversteer into a tree he obviously came into the turn way to hot, unless the road is a small single lane road. Obviouslly total miscalculations. I agree all cars are hyped, lotus included. But the ones I've driven I've loved to death. The mere sound and feeling from driving one can't be explained. And I was in no way trying to bash the Z06, it's a great car. I'm just trying to state for those that would like to compare the two they're not comparable. Like the GTO and new stang. They're for completelly different people.

ROFL!!! Ok, so he's got a 15-mid14 sec honda at best if he can even drive half decent. And he wants to say he beat an EVO??? HAHAHAHA What an idiot. "Yea, I beat the most idiot proof drag car on the street that runs 13's no matter how bad you are." <-- just quoting his obvious thought process. Can people really blame honda for having such idiots buying them? I'm not one for honda bashing as I've built a few honda motors in my time, but I LOVE bashing honda owners. Seems like a majority of them bought a honda 100% on assumption and didn't even test drive multiple vehicles or bought it for it's "potential" but then don't A. have the money to bring it to someone who knows what they're doing or B. Can't do any performance work themselves. I still can't believe there are guys like this. These are people (seems to me at least) that are into cars 100% because of the FAD aspect, wich you can thank the fast and the furious for so much of.

I agree they're hard to drive all out on. To do it safelly you have to do ALL your slowing down before even getting close to the apex. Mid engines just like to accellerate through turns, wich is why driving real hard on streets you don't know is stupid. I wonder how the pre DOT inspected elise would have faird in that situation, because I thought that was one of the areas lotus did work to get it into the US market. Basic reality of it though is that the elise is one of the best track cars you can get for the price. It offers racing experience like no other car in it's range. Go head, say it. I know we've got plenty of GM people here. "The Z06 is a better/faster car for the same price and you don't have to wait forever on a huge waiting list." Blah blah blah blah blah. The Z06 is great, but it's a 50/50 street/track car while the elise is a 20/80 street/track car. Just look at the extige, 10 way adjustable dampers! DANG! Adustable spring height/perches of course. Gutted interior. CD player opitional, I could go on but we all know the spec sheet. Many people complain why spend so more for so much less car? My simple responce "Because with all that less car you get more race car under warrenty." People praise the S2k because it's a blast to drive under Vtec 24/7, but for just a little more you can own a lotus that IS what the S2k WANTS to be. But the S2k is a compromise just like all other street cars. And then we get "street drivers" (see street driving vs race driving thred) that want to drive a lotus like they know what they're doing. I think this thred is a perfect sequel to the street driving/race driving thred. The general statistics are obvious. MOST car guys don't even race, and if they do they drag race. And yet MANY guys at the track drive like they don't know what they're doing. I'll admit, I'm far from a great driver, but I know my weaknesses and I'm working on them every chance I get. There are guys that just don't understand how much they suck at driving sans wreaked lotus... On the last note, I feel really sorry for this guy and that looks very painful. It looks like the corner panel was untouched, so who's gonne fix it? You could have a lotus at a decent price.

HAHAHA spoken like a true hybridz'er. "I don't care what it is! It's FUN!" :rockon: That's why we started putting V8s in Zs right? To make them fun! 8) More power to ya if you can enjoy driving something that looks like... nothing else out on the market.

or those fog lights in the lower air dams? Go figure Maybe I'm not the only one with my kinda of taste I like the picture of the first one (nose on the right). To me that's as close to elenor as i've seen in japanese cars. My brother calls me crazy when I say I see some muscle potential in the S30. I should show him this pic. Perfect example of mustang shark nose. I'll make as many complains as I can The turn signal could me a bit larger, so that the upper line paralleled the bumper and the bottom line fallowed the valance vent. Extend it farther back so it doesn't look blocky, fallowing those two lines till they meet. I think the lines around the door could use some work, to tie the agressive look onto the side a little. Maybe a sharp angle upwards at the back bottom of the door/side skirt. I can see some stuff to do with the front seam, but I can't explain it. I'll let you imagine up some ideas. It's really coming along though. Really awsome work for the speed. Must be beucase of the christmas vacation?

oOo... Fixed alot with this one, but it's different enough to be a completelly different design. (it's more different than the new extige is from the elise, and they're doing great as a comapany ) I must say the new front makes the bumper work. The less agressive side makes my door issue dissapear. I really like the side intakes on the front. They could be a bit wider but for me everything with Zs need to be wider, as I'm not a fan of thier narrow look. Hood looks better, but I think it's just the difference from the front valance. It actually looks streetable on right height now. I know concept pictures don't have to look like that and even chip foose designes his concept art with that slammed look, but that gives you a good idea on how that's going to look when it's moving. I personally think the wing could look more angled and nascar looking. I'd like to see a side profile shot to get a real idea of where you're going with it, but I think even if you lower the spoiler/wing it's still gotta maintain that agressive look the hood creates. I'm of the philosophy that the back end of the car should parody the front. Some cars look great from the rear, but you see the front and it doesn't seem to match and it ruins it. This is my biggest beef with some of the new dodge cars. They look great from the front (even if I think they do look like recycled looks from thier other models) but the back end just looks like every other car on the road. The elise is perfrect in this to my likeing. REAL agressive hood, fallowed by articulate sharp angles in the rear. Thumbs up

I like the new miata, but to me they wouldn't make a great daily driver. There just too expensive for thier limited functionality for me. I'm sure they're fun, but they're not fun AND practical. I'm not a fan of the XB, and I'd never buy one, but being a guitarist that luggs gear everywhere I can appreciate thier ergonomics and clever interior design. BTW, I still think seeing a xB at an autox would give me the creeps and make me laugh at the same time. No less respect to you at all, it's just the suprise/shock factor. And in that sence, all the more power to you. EDIT DUE TO LACK OF WANTING TO MAKE A NEW POST SO SOON: Well, I guess it's just that to me a 2 seater isn't practical at all for a daily driver (and yet I drive a ZX around). I couldn't justify a purchase like that unless I was making 90+k a year and it was just gonna be my comuter/have fun car. It's still not a track only worthy car, you can't use it for road trips, and you won't be hauling anything with it. It's like it sits in a nitch that's cool, just not for me unless I'm making enough money to own 3 cars. But for me if I wanted a car to fill THAT void in my life, it would be an elise if I could afford it.

I'd expand on what 240hoke said and say it's to radical for most "Z" people. BUT! I think if you could produce a kit like that you'd fill a hole in the market. Nobody is going for the new age agressive look on the S30 on a production level. This could be why many ricers don't even know or care what a Z is. I personally would rather see only 2 vents on each side of the hood and angle more, but that's just me. I like the look of the front kit/valance but I think it could be brought up a bit. It looks too "show queen" and not "track queen". Doesn't mean I don't like the look, just not the functionality part of it. Looks like there isn't much more than 2 inches of clearence there. The bumper looks out of place, but I say that about 90% of Zs. The problem with the wing is that if you lower it you have to lower it alot to still be able to see.I think it location might be able to be brought down and inch or so, but it's the shape that might need to change. I'm all for the GT looking wing for that look, but if it were just a little smaller it would really change the way the back is precieved I think. I don't know if I like how the door still curves in so much before the kit. If it were me I'd add some girth there to flow into the side skirt better. These are all little gripes, and I don't even own a S30! So don't listen to me. I just wanted to give you what you want (and what I want for my renders). As always, keep it up!

thanks for the correction. Ahem, correction: NOS wasn't widely availible and thus everything on the street was DIY. Is that better? And to be honest nitrous ready manifolds did become popular till the late 90's. If there was anything out there it sure wasn't availble locally.

The good news is that you're already laughing about it. That's a good sign your sanity is still intact. Probly damaged, but intact. I once babysitted a kid that got real sick in the middle of the night with a bad flu and had diarrhea and couldn't control himself. I spent all night cleaning up puke and other stuff. The worst part was getting sick 2 days later from it and then in turn my whole family getting sick. I don't really laugh about it, but mostly becuase it doesn't seem like a big deal. I think back about it and I think "I only got paid $20 for that..."

Hey, we're not fat! We're big boned I once watched a guy living with us eat a good 5+ pounds of spagetti. He was a track runner and DANG that guy could eat! He probly could have finished one of those sandwiches with ease. He usuaully ate 5 meals a day to keep the sizes down. I just can't eat that much. I can't remember the last time I actually finished a meal at a resturant. I still love food though.

Good read Z-gad, but before the import market really exploded I help build and maintain a 10 sec del sol. It wasn't sound legal, and he used slicks at the track. It was a high 11 low 12 sec car with street tires. Best run was in the 10.8 range. He also ran full interior trim with racing seats using the stock rails. It was a B16 turbo with way too much nitrous for it's own good. Guy once melted the pistons on the freeway being stupid. When we rebuilt it we only bored it as much as nececcary. How many 10 year olds have you met that can say they helped design a solid 11 sec 4 banger? This was long before NOS (comany) existed so it was a fully custom install. We spend a good weekend debating how to best modify the intake. I bet if the three of us got back together to build another honda we could make a 9 sec honda. Maybe not street legal, but close enough to drive it on the street 8) . I know for 100% fact we could make a 9 sec honda that would still be a good daily driver, and I wouldn't be able to say the same about most other cars, because that much HP in a RWD car is usually hard to manage on the street. The idea behind the article was spot on though. There are many guys that just read tha magazines, or as aux pointed out watch initial D, and think they actually know something. Maybe I'll be the first to say it... I can build a 11k street car and I don't know s***, so if these people want to act like they know something there's something wrong with them in the head. That being said I loved the intial D live action move. Overall I think the initial D franchise is highly entertaining, but taken too seriously by most. I personlly thing the live action movie was ten times more entertaining than either of the Fn'F movies.

^ granted, but I still think all the of them have some great people working for them doing wonders. It's just getting the companies lined up as a whole that's an issue. Cadillac has been making way more than projected earnings and they havn't been selling in quanitity in usual GM fashion, they're doing it with expensive lines with even more expensive halo cars. I wouldn't say ford is doing great, but they're not on thier knees yet (at least to my eyes). Dodge, well I don't keep up enough on dodge. They're on another planet. Personally I can't imagine how any company is doing poorly as where I live new cars flood the streets. State standards dictate that one average a person that uses thier car for work should be able to (on average) be able to buy a NEW car every 5 years. And to me that seems about accurate. Seems like almost every household has a car less than 5 years old. My house included. Do companies really need americans to replace thier car every year to stay in buisness? Then again, maybe it's just california. But even then, when ever I go back midwest SO many people buy USDM. Granted less people buy new cars but still. Import dealerships are pretty hard to find by comparison.

I'm not that motivate, and i'm too much a perfectionist so I'd have to get out a tripod, then warp the image in photoshop to adjust for the curvature of the screen and just work work work work work work. That's not me man. I use GT4's "photo travel." Simply get in the car you want to shoot, then goto photo travel and choose a location. Then simply place the car, move camera, and clic. Review the photo and transfer the file to a USB drive. Easy as pie. I don't know why so many reviews hate the photo mode and see it as pointless. I personlly think it's the games best improvement over GT3. I'm just made I couldn't get the camera 100% ontop of the car to get a top shot, so i've been doing without that dimension.

In order for noobs like me to render something half decent you need a sample picture(s) to work from. Ideal is side, front, back, and top. If they're not centered pictures it throws the whole thing off. I don't have and direct angel shots like that and weather here has sucked latelly. So I used GT4 for my sample pictures Gotta love photo mode. Ok, I've already modded the bucket alot but now i'm working on the fender so I'll wait till i'm done with that to post more pics. I made it a bit longer and moved it farther back so the front clip will be how far I want it from the wheel well. My MAIN issue that lead me to shorten the bucket length is that to get the front look I wanted on the stock front end the lower valance would have to come WAY out (almost parallel to the hood & bucket) and then I don't like the look of the overhang. So I'm still trying to fiddle with it to make it look right. I agree with the initial impression "too round." I'm looking to correct that. I'm also going to make the bucket look a bit more agressive looking, not positive on how. (i've heeded your advice) I'm down for agressive, wich is what i'm going for, just not the exact way you are drftn. I'm going for more of the exoitc superiority "gawdy" look that intimidates, not the "i'm gonna tear your ****n' head off look (that your look says to me, wich is awsome though). I'll still have a rear diffuser (love the look) but it'll be subdued a bit and hopefully blend in with the lines. And honestly, 3D editing is SO easy compared to hand drawing (to me at least). I can' correct my mistakes and keep editing without having to start over.

That's alot of power. Have you ever driven a 500hp car? I can't explain how freakin' fast a 10 sec del sol is. It's more power than you should really need unless you're drag racing. On road courses and autox hp really isn't the battle, suspension is. And the cost difference between a track only setup and track/street setup is amazing. If you want a REAL race suspension that doesn't knock your fillings out you're looking at WAY too much money. Anything that's cheep that's "track/street" is a compromise of some sort. Maybe not bad, but surely not the best track suspension normally. I personally wouldn't build a street 4 cylinder over 400hp (except a few like the SR), mayne not even over 300 for most 4 bangers. For the HP you're looking for (wich is ALOT) you could look at the 3uz-fe or the 1uz-fe. Very hard to find quality parts due to poor a/m support but they're lighter than most V8s, they can be made to rev high, and have enough displacement to reach your goals NA. The stock internals can take 600hp easy, even more if it's the 3uz-fe. You'd need extensive porting (heads and intake), headers (of course), and bigger injectors I assume, and cam for sure. Maybe even a bit more. If you really wanted to rev to 11k you'd have to pull the motor apart and grind down as much of the rotating mass as you can(go with a good machine shop, money there means less money later). You'd also need a tranny, since these motors came with autos 99% of the time. A company in aussieland makes a supra bell housing for it, and while those are great trannies they're not cheep. The motor would be cheep, but work would be expensive past intake & exhast since to port the heads you'll have to bring it to someone who has a flow bench since there isn't really specialists for this motor. Mounts would have to be fabricated, wich if you're not doing youself can get expensive. The oil pan on these motors are huge, so I don't know what kind of work needs to happen there. I think that 'if' HP is your priority go with a V8, it'll be dirt cheep compared to most other options at that HP. LS1 or LS2 would be great options, very easy to get to 500 hp. If revs are your main concern, go with a RB26. If weight were your main concern.... all aluminium V8, inline 4 with a well mounted motor & turbo system, or a high compression aluminium V6. There would be my options for these goals. I'm not saying they're all powerful, just my take on what I'd do. Personally I'm almost 75% set on a 1uz-fe and maybe putting the 3uz internals in it. I should be able to get it to 400hp and still pass smog easily (it'll be smogged as a L28, don't ask). If I want to go farther after that I'll probly run different smog cams and i'm pretty sure I could get plenty of HP reliably with the motor. But there are a few things that make this swap possible for me. 1. It's cheep initial investment. 2. I can do most of the fabircation myself (with help from many people I know), wich saves money 3. There are donor cars everywhere where I live. I see probly at least 10 SC400s a day wich make perfect donors. A wreaked one can be had for cheep. If money wasn't a problem, and I wanted the ultimate street/track car, I'd go with the new ford cammer motor. If you just brought your desired HP down a bit you'd have TONS of motors as options for what you want. Me and rudypoochris had a great conversation last night (online) about how high reving motors are really street friendly becuase they don't have any power down low, so you're able to stay away from the high HP part of the spectrum where gas is consumed the most and your also able to actaully drive your car in the rain But they're also harder to make great track cars. One of the fastest RB26 track motors was only around 500hp but made insane torque, wich meant coming out a turn the motor pulled alot harder to help get speed back up. Generally high rev motors don't have tons of torque. Idealy, the pefect motor for me would have liniar power until 4k where torque and HP would jump and stay flat till a 9-10k drop off. That way I could drive it on the street below 4k easy and at the track I'll never go below 4k. And if you needed the power on the street 4k isn't hard to get it. But such a motor doesn't exist.

Actually I've been looking at that since last night. I don't paticularly like the stub nose look of some S30s (the g nose comes to mind. I think they look cool for what they are, just not my taste) and that's kinda the look that emits from this first draw up. I'm thinking I want to keep the bucket longer and move it farther back. I'm also toying with the idea of shrinking the height of the outsdie of the hood, to make the fenders look larger and more GT looking. I personally see that in the stock lines with the hood scoop the way it is. As you can see in my signature there's just enough of a height difference so the light shows the line i'm talking about. Accented I think this will work for me. It will allow a stock looking side porfile with an agressive look. My overall design leads toward elegant + exotic. I want this thing to look like a supercar that 'I' designed, not ferrari, nissan, jaguar, ect. But as you can see, I'm still taking alot of the Z influence. But my hope is that ONLY Z guys & very knowledgable car guys will even know what it is. In fact, I'd rather even the casual Z owner not be able to reconise what it is. I just hope I can get some more people posting in this thred I like what you mentioned and I know there are lots of great minds on this board, cause I've done my fair share of keyboard drooling on this site.

My responce: That's a unique thred title to say the least. :click: hmm, no pictures... Hmm on3go, dodge wha? Hmm, i still don't see anything. I'm with jon, there ain't nothin' here. :image comes ups: ... :squirt: FREAK. That jerk aux, now I gotta go change. Thanks alot dude.