Kevin Shasteen

Yep, Lone-looks like a very functional set up; especially like the air filter housing. BTW-visited your site, Lone Does your wife know you made a reference to her weight(?), shame shame. My lips are sealed-mum's the word; anyway, it was just a reference & no actual #'s given. I'm sure if she does know then you have received a few elbows to the ribs. Also downloaded your soundbite of your flowtech. Now I am really jealous-that is the sound I would like eminating from my Z-sounded very good, very, very nice indeed. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

When I travel I always like to make sure I have a Spark Tester in my tool box....along with just about everything everyone else has mentioned. If your car wont run-the spark tester lets you know real quick if your problem is spark or fuel related. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

You dont turn the harmonic balancer to TDC. On the compression stroke-slowly turn the balancer, with a breaker bar & socket, by hand till you reach your BTDC mark you wish to start off with; it appears you have chosen 6 degrees BTDC. So, turn the balancer, by hand, on the compression stroke up to the point where your pointer indicates your 6 degrees BTDC. Then drop your dist. in, ensuring that your rotor is pointing to your #1 plug wire, prime the carb-and crank it over. If you are using a dist. w/a vacuum canister on it-be sure the vacuum canister is pointing toward the passenger door & running parallel w/the firewall; this should give you some wiggle room once for adjustment once your engine fires. Remember-when you are dropping your dist. down-it will seem as if there are two notches; the first is when the dist. gears align themselves to the cam gears & the second will be after the gears mesh. As the gears mesh-the rotor will turn slightly; so try to leave yourself some wiggle room for the rotor turning as well. The first few times I messed w/dist's I always found myself 180 degrees out, until I got good enough where that never happens anymore; so if it doesnt start the first few times after you have primed your carb-then think about turning your rotor 180 degrees...and that monster should come to life. Also, keep the dist. hold down anchor snug-but loose enough you can turn the dist. for adjustment once your engine does fire. Report back to us after it has started. I always associate an engine breathing its first breath as the same sound of Darth Vader-when he breathes; very awesome sound. BTW: did I mention I'm jealous you have a V8 in your Z & I dont have one in mine? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Regarding the C5's powertrain....as a transplant-did anyone see "Camaro Performers" magazine? I believe this mag is a quarterly issued mag. Anyway, they did a good write up on a shop up north where that shop's specialty is installing the C5's 'complete' powertrain into a 69 Camaro. I found it rather interesting. The magazine has a white 69 Pace Car on the front cover w/two 69's; orange & yellow behind it. Its got some good pictures: for you 'do it yourself fabricators' out there who are contiplating this exotic swap-you should check it out. Haven't been to his site-but the article gave: http://waynedue.com Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I have wondered many times what to do w/my hood vents (78z)if and when I ever go V8. I dont like the rain dripping down on my engine now-the rain drops right thru down on the fusible links of my factory set up Inliner....water & electonics; especially the fusible links, I just dont like that. The fusible link plastic covers have broken and fallen off many moons ago. Anyway, I've thought about fab'g those 85z turbo scoops in place of the 78 hood vents and also fab'g the 70/80's Pontiac T/A's fender vents into the fender of my Z. I would also run a tube from my inner fender wells to these fender vents and in those tubes run small electric fans spliced into my ratidator fan-this way when the radiator fan kicks in-so will the fender vent fans and this should move the hotter engine air out. I've also seen some hood scopps in the Summit Catalogue, under the "Truck/SUV" section. These hood scoops were by Lund Inc. The only problem is they are held on by 3m tape. I dont have any experiece w/tape held on scoops. I would prefer to graph them into my hood somehow-dont need them coming off at hwy speeds; or being stolen by some thug. These are the hoods I'm talking about: http://www.weathers.com/Lund/Hood%20Scoops.htm The scoops are @ $30 cheaper thru Summit. It appears there is a slight lip on these scoops-so surely rivet that lip to your hood if you dont mind the "Road Warrior" effect or for a cleaner install you could graph them into your hood. Anyway, just thinking out loud. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Iiii-Lerrrrve that Shaker Hood Grog! Now all it needs is the T/A's fender vents; at least that is what I'ld like to do to my Z someday. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Have you ever noticed when an auto mfg comes out w/some new sports car that they will have a street version of that car then a race version of that car? Both cars will utilize the same engine configuration yet neither engine's output is similar in any way. Yes is the obvious answer. This is where it pays to have a little knowledge about the engine your are tinkering with. It always helps to know your cylinder heads ability to flow; as in having a cfm flow chart and knowing its chamber volumes. This way you will have some idea as to its strengths and its weaknesses. This should give you some kind of an idea if/when your modifications have surpassed your cyl.heads ability to add to your modifications. To answer your questions on your previous post-Yes to #1 if your engine in its stock configuration was "suffocated" (detuned) from the factory to begin with. Then it will depend if all the factory did was put in a milder cam. If the factory detuned your engine to create a milder version for the street-then a "hotter cam" should wake up your engine. However, if your engine was not detuned to begin with and was built to maximum performance for that street aplication-then a "hotter cam" wont necessarily do anything except move your power band higher up the rpm range. This is also where it pays to recognize patterns; such as the difference between smaller displacement -vs- larger displacements. On smaller displacements you can manipulate both the torque curve and the hp curve substantially, whereas on a larger displacement-say in the neighborhood of the big blocks, you wont really be manipulating the torque curve. You can add to it-but, usually a big block's torque curve is usually going to be broad and very torquey. Yet, what you can manipulate on a big block is that engine's hp curve. You can make your big blocks hp curve pick up where the torque curve drops off. Think of torque as an engine's ability to work and the hp as the engine's ability to work fast...or slow if the engine has been detuned. Does that help at all(?) or am I still dancing around the issue? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I agree w/Mike. In the mid 90's when I couldnt afford to change my mind I had a 4x4 truck whose wiper motor failed. A new one costs $100 and would have to wait till my next month's check. This was the rainy season in the Dallas area. I put so much RainX on my windshield before each trip (100 mile commute to work) that rain was never a problem. Seriously; RainX is a worthwhile investment. I used the stuff for a full month and went thru three heavy rain cells w/out an incident-yes I drove in the slow lane-but RainX was my answer to a limited budget at the time. Kevin, (Yes,Still an Inliner)

A "Hot Cam" is not the determining factor of where your power band will surface. What determines your power band is displacement and how well your engine breathes when your valves are opening and closing at any one rpm. IMHO, this is where understanding both Dynamic and Static Comp. Ratios come into play. It is possible to have a High Static Compression Engine with a hot cam and still make it idle low with your power band showing itself in the low rpm range: providing your Dynamic Comp.Ratio's were factored into the equation (DCR is determined by your Intake Valve Closing relative to Displacement of your engine). If you were to read D.Vizard's book on How to Modify SBC cyl.heads (doesn't matter which mfg we are talking about-as airflow is universal to all makes and models) then on page#75 you will read where he quotes Fayett Taylor's book on "The Internal Combustin Engine". Here, Vizard reports what that book says about peak power. This variable which determines peak power potential is airflow velocity. Sound travels at 1200 fps (feet per second) and the engine, with its thermodynamics, will effect that sound barrier by .55-.60. Therefor, the engine's airflow will reach Super-Sonic speeds at Velocities around 600 fps. Once the airflow reaches Super-Sonic speed, within the intake port, then your power output falls as if it fell off a cliff. This "falling off" is what you and I see everytime we look at a dyno run of any engine. If you will notice the end of that dyno run where the power numbers drop-this is the point whereby that engine's airflow velocity, within the port, has reached super-sonic speeds. So to understand airflow-you have to understand that all tuners are attempting to manipulate this "Point at which Port Velocity Reaches Super-Sonic" speeds. Once this point is reached it represents an airflow wall that cant be penetrated; thus-no more air-thus no more power. An engine's ability to breathe determines its "Peak Potential". Your choice of Camshaft, Cylinder Head along with your intake & exhaust systems will manipulate that "Peak Potential". To put it another way; if you took a stock Datsun 168ci as a baseline; you'ld obtain the same power numbers that Nissan reached. Now, take that same engine & put a cyl.head w/a smaller Combution Chamber on it...If everything else remained the same what would happen? You just woke that engine up (moderately speaking). Your engine's Airflow Velocity will reach that super-sonic speed much quicker and your power band will come on the cam much quicker: all based on the limitations of the airflow velocity that is incorporated into your engine. If the port cfm remained the same-your power band rpm would stay the same; but the engine would be more responsive. This is great on the street but not much use on the race track-so what do you do? Well, you put in a cam with a longer duration-narrower LSA (DCR) that also has a higher lobe lift, install cyl.heads w/smaller comb.chambers that utilize larger intake ports, and install pistons that further push the SCR numbers upward...now you have manipulated that "Point at which Super-Sonic Airflow Velocity" will be reached and have just successfully moved your power band further up the rpm range. This is all that any hot rodder/tuner is doing when they tweak an engine; they are merely manipulating the point at which that engine's airflow reaches Super-Sonic speeds. There are also many approaches to obtain the same effect. The Intake and exhaust will have its effect, but the cylinder head/camshaft combo determines the intensity to which your intake & exhaust will effect your power band. Once you understand airflow velocity then, as a tuner, you also have to understand that some engines bring to the table their own attributes; such as: 1) Push Rod Engines 2) SOHC Engines 3) DOHC Engines 4) Rotary Engines 5) *No Substitution for Displacement Anyway; my .02c's worth/anyone else? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

BTW: I dont consider myself an expert, but; any answer as to why the two engines were similar can only be speculation since none of us know exactly what your friend did to his engine. BTW #2: Your camshaft should've been the first item you thought of-relative to how well your engine flows air. Basically what JohnC said; airflow is the key. But, since we are speculating I will say this: there is more to a power band's rpm than simply the duration of a cam. Such as the Lobe Seperation Angle and the Intake Lobe Centerline...all these determine your Intake Valve Closing (Dynamic Comp.Ratios). This IVC not only determines idle characteristics but also at what point your peak power will surface-which is also relative to how well your other components were matched; or not matched. The associated engine components will either compliment your engine and add power where you need it most in your power band; if you have chosen correctly. If you have not chosen correctly then you may possibly be suffocating your engine. Xtra fuel is good-but air is the key to a performance engine and it is air that determines if when and or how much fuel/spark is needed. Your cylinder head is where the key to free power will be found-all other components should compliment your engine's ability to breathe. A better intake will help-but if your cyl.heads dont breathe well then you wont ever see true real increases in power. A 270 duration cam is a good choice because it has decent street manners and moderate power increase-provided your cylinder heads can handle the xtra airflow. My guess why your two engines have differing peak power rpms would either be the cam's LSA & LCA as well as one engine's ability to breathe better at those peak power rpms. Anyone else? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Better to be Obtuse than Acute; being Acute will get you your own padded room w/a special white coat that has extra long sleeves. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Hey Ian, Not really up on the Inliner components; I know your 3.1L equals 3100cc's and I would be curious as to why your engine detonated your pistons. Do you feel your piston's life expectancy was short because they were not forged or because they were damaged purely from detonation? If you cam is mismatched to your cylinder heads and too much cylinder pressure is allowed to bleed off prior to the cylinder being sealed (Intake Valve Closing) then once airflow does increase....if your Static Compression Ratio is also too low-then you will experience detonation. All this can and will be exacerbated w/a turbo. 1) What camshaft are you running (seat to seat timing please, w/LSA & Intake Centerline Angle)? 2) What boost are you running w/your turbo? 3) What "Mechanical" Static Compression Ratio did you set your engine up with? 4) Do you know what your Total Combustion Chamber cc's add up to? 5) What is Your Block Deck Height? 6) What is your Connecting Rod Length? Every recent article (within the last 10 years) I've read have always used JE Pistons when it came to custom pistons and have always had nothing but excellant things to say about them. Unfortunately when you use the word custom-everything will cost more...and at an exponential rate simply because its 'custom'(to state the obvious, of course). Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I just wanna know if a full blown hemi can fit in it? Kevin (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I hate it when that happens; poop in the pants that is! Thank goodness for Depends. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

You'ld have to measure the engine bay. Remember, the Z back in the 70's when it was first introduced to the U.S. was also offered back in their home country w/a DOHC version but with less cc's-thus the wider engine bay. The japanese who were lucky enough to obtain a Z w/the DOHC also got a tax break for buying a more environment friendly engine...this was their incentive for purchasing an engine w/less cubes. The car you are looking at may not have been offered w/a DOHC back in Japan, thus it may not have as wide of an engine bay as the Z; just something to think about. Kevin. (Yea,Still an Inliner)

For a 468 Rat 8/9sec's Z you can use this set up. It was a 10.0:1 Static Comp.Ratio engine-so it could even possibly be driven on the street; can someone say bucking bronco idle(?). Anyway; this was an engine Westech put together & tested and ran in a "Chevy High Performance" magazine article. Displacement: 468ci Compression: 10.0:1 Static Comp.Ratio Heads: World Products Merlin Iron, Oval Port Intakes Intake Manifold: Weiand Team G Carb: Demon 850cfm Cam: Crane PN# 139651 Hydraulic Roller Advertised Duration: 306/318 In/Ex Duration @ .050": 244/256 In/Ex Lift: .632"/.632" In/Ex Lobe Separation Angle: 114 RPM HP Tq 3000 261 457 3500 309 463 4000 381 500 4500 465 543 5000 568 597 5500 602 575 6000 638 558 6500 622 502 Peak TQ: 598 @ 5100rpm Peak HP: 639 @ 6400rpm Build it and they will run. Now, Go get yourself a heapen helpin of rice. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

BTW....means "By The Way". oh yea, BTW, you can run a Tunnel Ram on the street...you just wont be able to do it as efficiently as the conventional intake/carb set up. Think about it; we're talking about pressure differentials which effect airflow velocity. These pressure differentials start w/atmospheric conditions, to carb cfm/venturi, to intake ports, to cyl.head port/chambers, to the exhaust. All these ports must have a ratio that compliments its previous port. As Pete mentioned-if your cam is an old muscle car grind then its gonna have excessive overlap-which kills low idle power to begin with; this is where understanding my pet peave (sp?), Dynamic Compression Ratio's come in to play. Secondly-your tunnel ram is much larger that a typical single plane or high rise dual plane-thus air velocity is again compromised placing a double whammy on Dynamic Compression Ratio putting that much more of a strain on low rpm power (air velocity). The old muscle car grinds were slower because when they were available, we as a nation had 116 Leaded (Ah, good ole Ethyl). The ramps Pete mentioned, which are slow ramps, aided the leaded fuels of yester-year. That fuel ignited slower but once ignited it burned quickly. This is why those old cams opened the valve slower, held the valve open less, and closed the valve rather quickly. Now days we have fuel that ignites quicker and burns slower; thus the quicker ramps which open quicker, stay open longer-then close even quicker than the older cams. Also, the mfg's of those muscle car cams would purposely use excessive duration to bleed off their high Static Compression Ratio's. The maximum mucle car engines of those days would have as high as a 12.5:1 Static Compression Ratio but once the excessive duration cam bled off its predetermined cylinder pressure, the actual Dynamic Comp.Ratio was more acceptable for the street, for the gas of that time. The purpose for a tunnel ram is to increase your high rpm's, which is why they are the perfect compliment to a larger displacement engine that already has a lot of low end power. Put this tunnel ram on a smaller displacement engine, with an excessive duration-narrow LSA cam and then run this engine on the street; you are flurting w/disaster. My final point is this; you can under build your engine and that engine will still rev to 5500rpms. You can build your engine perfectly, right on target, and your engine will rev to 5500rpms. You can also over build your engine and it will still reve to 5500rpms. So if all three engine builds will rev to 5500rpms which is best; to under build, build correctly, or over build? The correct answer is to build correctly for your intended purpose (The Street) which allows for your engine to come on the cam at the appropriate rpm range. The appropriate rpm range will be the rpm your car finds itself in at least 60% of the time. If it is to be a daily driver-that means you will be on the street...thus your desired torque/power band should be down low. If it is a daily driver-I would heed Lone's advice. A Tunnel Ram and its carbs are quite easy to steal. Two guys who know what they are doing can rip you off in less than 5 minutes! If you decide on that set up, you will definately need after market heads (on today's pump gas), a more moder camshaft with faster ramps, steep steep steep diff.gears; and an overdrive trans. As someone else mentioned...at least 8mpg-if you can keep your foot out of it Yea Right. No lectures, no speeches-just free advice and opinions; that is what I like about this cite-free opinions with a lot of hidden experience freely offered...take it or leave it. Just my .02's worth. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

You'ld be surprised just how often a key from one car will work on a lock on another car. When I was younger-my Dad had an International Travelall; the ignition key to that Truck fit many other Internationals that he had & even a few GM veh's that he had. We had a family trucking business-so Dad never threw away that key-still think to this day he has it somewhere. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

LJ...You Rebel You! I was at an intersection in Plano awhile back; I had the red light. Lo and behold I could hear a whining noise and a low rumble at the same time-didnt know where it was coming from. Looked to my left just in time to see one of those subies come flying thru the intersection. Believe me when I say; it sounded stout-I was very impressed when the driver flexed the muscles of that car. Very Respectful. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Hey, At least many of here will be able to rob the fender badges of a wrecked one if/when we find one in a bone yard. So, I guess not all is lost. Nissan and Toyota have always been good about using tried and trued parts that they already have when mfg'ing a new car. Len, I feel your pain I knew they would under power it. Remember, they were not wanting to over build and over price their car like they did w/the later 300zx's, and price themselves out of the market. Just sit tight-and wait for the aftermarket crowd to take up the slack; the aftermarket crowd usually doesnt waste anytime in stepping up to the plate where the mfg has fallen short. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Unfortunately, once you bolt your heads on-the head gaskets are compressed and not reuseable. You can try but I would not advice it-can you just imagine yourself doing the head gasket job a third time? No thank you-I would not take that chance. As far as cyl.head and intake compatibility-what cyl.heads do you have; besides the vortecs and what kind of intake manifold do you have? What year is your block? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I hate to give you such a cop-out answer; but, if I were you (which I'm not) I would invest in a factory service manual. As the factory service manual will give you the power flow of runability problems. It will also tell you exactly how to diagnose any and all injection sensors & components within that power flow; in which some generic manuals wont even hint at how to test those items. It is probably just one component-but it could be a combination; this is why it is important to follow the diagnosis procedure found in the engine fuel category of the factory service manual. Sorry for the cop-out answer. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

I tell you what, IMHO, my most humble opinion; I would not be so adamant against the License if, as someone mentioned earlier, that we all had to attend and pass a drivers school. Not just drivers ed but a school where evasive measures are taught. I would even be prepared to pay for it myself and would much rather pay that excessive amount to some driving school; at least then it would be helping a private business, even though I know the costs would far out weigh the measily $15 every 7 years for license renewal that we pay now. As for now we simply pay the fee for a license and inspection sticker. I wouldnt even mind if that license was only given after our certificate of achievement from the driving school had been obtained. I also think it would be a good idea if we all had to look at a few hundred fatality scenes, not including the people who died, but simply their cars that were wrecked...this too would give a little importance on what might happen if you are irresponsible. Yes, this implies more control-but its intent seems better placed. I think the added measures would ensure that most everyone was a safer driver; as opposed to just paying the fee for tags. As we stand now, the license & inspection fees arent really doing that much for safety. We all know places where you can go somewhere and get an inspection w/out going thru the "safety checks", at least in small towns there always seems to be a few of these shops around. BTW: my friend was arrested "FOR NOT SIGNING THE TICKET"...that is what got the ball rolling for which he followed up later with the suit; which lay claim that he, my friend, was arrested w/out a pre-existing arrest warrant. Had he signed the citation-he would have had no standing for not paying the citation. So, you can fight a wrong at its inception, wait till later & fight it in court; or do both. Or, teach yourself how to reject an offer to contract-do so and then never worry about it. If the local municipality exceeds their authority and arrests you-then take them to court. It is a personal decision. If you choose to reject their ticket-not signing the citation isnt good enough. You must also write on that citation that you have rejected their offer and mail it back to them; which complets the rejection. The point is that if the officer doesnt have an arrest warrant-then they cant LEGALLY arrest you unless you have harmed an individual or damaged their property so much so that it warrants being arrested. As a reminder-we are speaking of an Injurious Claim whereby there is no Flesh-n-Blood Accusor. Public officials are servants; they have Duties and Responsibilities for which they can perform w/out permission from you or I; as those Duties and Responsibilities come with the Job Title. If and when they act outside of the scope of their Duties and Responsibilities..such as in arresting one of us sovereigns; then they need a "Delegation of Authority" from their superiors to do so, as in an arrest warrant. This arrest warrant, search warrant ect., doesnt require our signature-why? Because that is a law that has teeth-it doesnt require our signature. If and when that delegation of authority doesnt exist; then the acting officer has just acted outside of their scope of authority, such as in a case whereby they are going to arrest someone for not signing that citation/negotiable instrument/contract. Your signature on that instrument is an agreement to contract w/that municipality...the agreement being that you accept their ordinance violation and agree to pay; even tho you dont work for that corporate municipality nor do you live in their city limits; therefore they need your signature. Jim, I dont understand why you dont see the citation as not only a presentment but a contract once it is signed. You as an atty had to go to law school somewhere; you know good and well that 60% of your training was about different contracts, when a contract is valid as opposed to when it is not, and definitions of legal words. The rest of your schooling was about fault, ethics and procedure and negotiations. You know or should have known what it means to make a presentment, and that acceptance requires your signature. You know good and well that accepting a presentment, a negotiable instrument, means that the acceptor has agreed to pay on behalf of the holder of that presentment....if you dont know what a presentment is then I apologize for assuming that you do. However; without one's signature-then that instrument becomes an incomplete instrument and then by being an incomplete instrument-there is no promise to pay. Perhaps a presentment and negotiable instruments would be a good place for anyone to begin their sutdy if they wish to understand contracts. Jim, if my quotes and brackets offends you (certainly an insignificant offence IMO) then I apologize. It cetainly is not my intention to offend anyone-regardless of how insignificant that offense is...I will try to minimize my quotes and brackets from here on out; regardless of the forum. My official apology to everyone here who has been offended by my quotes and brackets. Jim, I do agree with you that we do need to be regulated in some manner, we as a Nation have proven that we are incapable of handling our freedom w/out harming others. I just dont like the abuses of authority when they happen; this is what spurred my quest for understanding the entire process. There does seem to be a paradox; we as Americans are free, even free to contract into jurisdictions that limit our freedom. So if we are free, even to reject an offer to contract in a legal traffic citation scenario-then where is the compelling force to regulate ourselves? It seems that our freedom, which is our greatest attribute as an American, also seems to be our worse virtue-as in the few who go out of their way to abuse their freedoms ( frustrated); where oh where should that line be drawn? I think the line is drawn between choosing to be subject to the state or being sovereign-which means being personally accountable for your actions...as in acting responsible in all settings. Isnt it funny that controversial issues always seem to come down to ethics and morals; as in those who have them and those who dont. For the record, I have only had two bad experiences w/a police officer upon being pulled over; and my problem with those two examples were with their attitude of which I never gave them a reason to have. All other officers have always been professional; even the officer that gave me the speeding ticket I didnt deserve; he and I spoke for about 30 minutes-he was utmost professional. I actually enjoyed the conversation-I didnt like the outcome in getting the ticket, but I liked the fact that he didnt mind the Q&A. This was the citation I rejected. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

What Nathan and many others have touched on is my whole entire point. How can you put an emphasis on "Accountability" when in reality all you are doing is "Throwing Money" at a problem. By throwing money at the problem (paying the fine) you are allowing money to be the solution. Can you really look an accident victim in the eyes, say a victim whose lost their leg because of yours or my reckless behavior, and say, "Well, now that my insurance has settled w/you for 100k ALL IS FINE-DONT YOU THINK(?), go hobble and whine elsewhere?" Of course it isnt ok. The individual we harm will not only have emotional scars but possibly physical scars if injuries resulted. Money, as in a fine (paying a citation) or Insurance Settlements wont bring that leg back, can you really put a price on a leg. Insurance by its very nature "Assumes the Risk" and "Liability" for you-again removing "Personal Accountability" from the eqution & transferring it to a third party...your Insurance Company. So money is not the solution; money has been "allowed" to replace "personal accountability" in the equation. Why? I dont know; but I dont accept the "Its the law-so just shut up & obey...now sign here" theory. This is where I'm coming from. While I was commuting a good distance to/from the insurance company I worked for for 12 years, there was a "Municipality" out in the middle of nowhere-that cruised the main hwy between two larger towns. This municipality only existed to write citations; this was not my opinion nor my friends opinion. This town was a Judge Roy Bean set up. My friend received a ticket for speeding (1-5mph's) over the speed limit..thus no flesh-n-blood "Accusor". Who was injured; no one. Did the "possibility" of an accident exist because my friend exceeded the speed limit; well of course-the possibility exists everyday that the sky might fall...but it doesnt, and yes-that local municipality was in "authority" over its residents and the "laws existed to regulate those driving thru". So the law is the law-sit down & shut up & just do what you are told. My friend decided he wasnt going to be their chump. He said no; they arrested him (Without a Warrant-simply because he wouldnt play their game). They impounded his truck, forced him to sit in jail till a judge (Roy Bean) could see him. $1200 later my friend is out. My friend decides to sue them. The municipality gets a lawyer who is savvy on constitutional issues. The municipaility learns real fast just how expensive a Constitutional Atty can be. They attempt to settle w/my friend out of court. Later, more and more people begin taking this municipality to court-until it gets the attention of the Texas Rangers. Then in comes the Texas Rangers to do an investigation. The Texas Rangers eventually shut down this "Lawful Municipality". So justice, in the eyes of the people, was accomplished. I would like to know-that if the "Law is the Law" then why did the Texas Rangers shut down this municipality? The point being, just because a law exists-doesnt make it a good one. If you wish to challenge it you can do so at the point of origin, ground zero-when the citation is being written, or you can challenge it in court (kangaroo court) where justice means "Sit down and shut up" and "its the Law so do what I tell you". If enough people would not have said, "No More" to the municipality that I spoke of earlier, then they would still be out there writing their citations. BTW-it came out in court that those "Officers" with the "Badges" on their chests, who also took "Oaths" were being paid strictly by Commision on the tickets they wrote...sounds fair to me; quite similar to some towns who have a "Quota" on code enforcement. Quota's while "alledgedly Lawful" can and many times go too far. So, again where is that fine line drawn? I will also admit I like the "I'm telling you" forum also...and yes it is important to teach impressionable youths what personal accountability really is; but you cant teach them by keeping them ignorant of the law-ordiance whatever slant you want to throw on it. I also agree that we (drivers) should take a real test at a driver's school. Prior to my legally being able to drive-I got my truck from dad; of which I had to repair it mechanically (blood-sweat-tears) which gave me a sence of value. I remember taking my truck in the back pasture & practicing hard accelerations, power braking, what happened when I did donuts; how close could I get to a fence post when parking. So not only had I been driving tractors since I was 12 or 13 I now had practical experience w/my truck-in a manner most kids will never have. I am my brothers keeper, and I owe each one of you the right to an expectation that I will not endanger your lives while you are travelling/driving (whatever you wish to call it) on the highways and byways. If the system were to put an emphasis on personal accountability rather than a dollar amount-then perhaps there would be more individuals giving more credence to the car next to them-instead of ignoring them & looking for the first moment to cut them off; who knows. I do think it is a good idea that conversations like this one come up in all circles; the more people that make it a quest to "aid" our system into being a better one (by involving themselves in politics or by changing your thinking-morally speaking) then our society will better itself. If this were not such an important issue then it would have never gone on for three pages. Thinking about it is the first step. I agree and understand the issues presented by those who have disagreed w/me. I understand where you are coming from. I didnt create the "Offer/Acceptance-Rejection" docrtine; the "Law Merchant" created it and it was both our State and Federal Representatives that allowed that doctrine to be implemented into our society...not me. There appears to be public officials that wish to better a town with this sytem and then there are public officials that only wish to increase their bank accounts with this system; one is good while the other is not good. It seems to be a paradox as to where that line is drawn. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)

Jim, All I meant by that statement is that I knew you would have a Black's Law Dictionary; and nothing more. Educating yourself on not harming others as well as the Legal System we have (Which is the best in the world) only benefits all of us. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner)