johnc Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I've always been a counter point to those that claim RWD is better the FWD. Here's an example of how FWD can win in an Unlimited race class. Its even a class limited Honda (NASA H1) beating unlimited Vipers, Corvettes, RX7s, etc. On race day it really doesn't matter what your driveline configuration is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluDestiny Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I like how he thanked the tires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 How do the weights compare? Nigel '73 240ZT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldlion Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 This was great to see. I've always enjoyed my fwd cars, but always been told they are not true sports cars, rwd will always perform better. My little civic SI sedan is a blast to drive, maybe retire it to racer status a few years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc052685 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I will respond only with this... There is not one professional event that is dominated by FWD, not Nascar, not F1, not WRC, not CART, not NHRA. There is always the exception to the rule but 99.9% of the time rwd will come out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzydicerule Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 ^^^ to go along with him, it also depends alot on the car and the driver, this guys obviously exceptional, and likes to take risks, if the other drivers drove like him (1 theyd be dead) but they would probably be faster. there is a video on youtube of a guy in a near stock 1996 Mustang GT doing damn near the same thing on the track, beating ALOT of better cars. keep in mind, 1996 Mustang GT's, or ANY Live axle mustangs dont handle well at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) I will respond only with this... There is not one professional event that is dominated by FWD, not Nascar, not F1, not WRC, not CART, not NHRA. There is always the exception to the rule but 99.9% of the time rwd will come out on top. I'm not an expert racing series but I just want to be fair and mention that I am pretty sure Nascar, and F1 both have very specific requirements for chassis design that effectively outlaws FWD car chassis configurations. Also CART and INDY only allow the use of one standard chassis for all competing teams to level the playing field, so no chance for FWD cars there either. I'm not familiar with NHRA drag racing at all but I've seen videos of FWD cars running 8s or 9s. Thats pretty fast. Can FWD go as fast as RWD dragsters can? A top fuel FWD car has not been built to my knowledge so its really impossible to say for sure. Point is there doesnt seem to be many publicized racing series where FWD cars are even allowed to compete with RWD cars on the same level. However, BTCC doesnt restrict driveline choice so teams can use FWD or RWD. Interestingly enough, this series has been dominated by FWD cars for years now. Though there were more RWD cars in the past there are actually very few of them left competing in the series. WTCC is similar, RWD and FWD cars compete directly, and though they arent as seemingly dominant have won the championship last couple years or so. I'm not saying that youd ever see a FWD car in F1, but just that in a lot of series cars look a certain way because they are required to, not necessarily because that's what's best. Edited June 9, 2011 by h4nsm0l3m4n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick101 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I wonder if we can all agree that FWD cars will never dominate in any drifting event Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I'm not an expert racing series but I just want to be fair and mention that I am pretty sure Nascar, and F1 both have very specific requirements for chassis design that effectively outlaws FWD car chassis configurations. Also CART and INDY only allow the use of one standard chassis for all competing teams to level the playing field, so no chance for FWD cars there either. I'm not familiar with NHRA drag racing at all but I've seen videos of FWD cars running 8s or 9s. Thats pretty fast. Can FWD go as fast as RWD dragsters can? A top fuel FWD car has not been built to my knowledge so its really impossible to say for sure. Point is there doesnt seem to be many publicized racing series where FWD cars are even allowed to compete with RWD cars on the same level. However, BTCC doesnt restrict driveline choice so teams can use FWD or RWD. Interestingly enough, this series has been dominated by FWD cars for years now. Though there were more RWD cars in the past there are actually very few of them left competing in the series. WTCC is similar, RWD and FWD cars compete directly, and though they arent as seemingly dominant have won the championship last couple years or so. I'm not saying that youd ever see a FWD car in F1, but just that in a lot of series cars look a certain way because they are required to, not necessarily because that's what's best. As pointed out, trying to compare apples to apples among different race series is going to be exceedingly difficult dut to rule restrictions. But this applies even within a race series. Sure BTCC has FWD and RWD cars competing side by side, but typically, RWD cars are subject to a weight penalty, and AWD even more so. That alone points to the inherent advantage of RWD and AWD over FWD. It comes down to physics. Tires have a finite amount of grip, and you can either dedicate 100% it to accelleration or 100% to cornering. You have to compromise one or the other in a FWD car. Which is not to say that you can't have a fast FWD car, but all else being equal, a FWD car will be at a disadvantage. Just look at the driveline choices for supercars, where there are no rule restrictions. They are all either RWD or AWD. You'll never see a FWD Ferrari. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc052685 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I'm not an expert racing series but I just want to be fair and mention that I am pretty sure Nascar, and F1 both have very specific requirements for chassis design that effectively outlaws FWD car chassis configurations. Also CART and INDY only allow the use of one standard chassis for all competing teams to level the playing field, so no chance for FWD cars there either. I'm not familiar with NHRA drag racing at all but I've seen videos of FWD cars running 8s or 9s. Thats pretty fast. Can FWD go as fast as RWD dragsters can? A top fuel FWD car has not been built to my knowledge so its really impossible to say for sure. Point is there doesnt seem to be many publicized racing series where FWD cars are even allowed to compete with RWD cars on the same level. However, BTCC doesnt restrict driveline choice so teams can use FWD or RWD. Interestingly enough, this series has been dominated by FWD cars for years now. Though there were more RWD cars in the past there are actually very few of them left competing in the series. WTCC is similar, RWD and FWD cars compete directly, and though they arent as seemingly dominant have won the championship last couple years or so. I'm not saying that youd ever see a FWD car in F1, but just that in a lot of series cars look a certain way because they are required to, not necessarily because that's what's best. The rules dont alow a fwd indy car because that car would surely kill someone. Also, if fwd was the better platform the rules would be the opposite. They would not allow RWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 The rules dont alow a fwd indy car because that car would surely kill someone. Also, if fwd was the better platform the rules would be the opposite. They would not allow RWD. Can you explain why FWD = Death? Also, racing rules frequently have little to do with what's "better". Why no AWD then? Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nsm0l3m4n Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) As pointed out, trying to compare apples to apples among different race series is going to be exceedingly difficult dut to rule restrictions. But this applies even within a race series. Sure BTCC has FWD and RWD cars competing side by side, but typically, RWD cars are subject to a weight penalty, and AWD even more so. That alone points to the inherent advantage of RWD and AWD over FWD. It comes down to physics. Tires have a finite amount of grip, and you can either dedicate 100% it to accelleration or 100% to cornering. You have to compromise one or the other in a FWD car. Which is not to say that you can't have a fast FWD car, but all else being equal, a FWD car will be at a disadvantage. Just look at the driveline choices for supercars, where there are no rule restrictions. They are all either RWD or AWD. You'll never see a FWD Ferrari. Nigel I actually wasn't aware of the weight penalty for running RWD and AWD cars, so thanks for pointing that out to me. In addition to this weight penalty I believe BTCC gives a weight penalty to the top 4 or 5 cars that win a race, though the exact details about how that works isn't as clear to me. This additional weight penalty seems like it would compensate for if a certain car was clearly superior to the others (for example, if the weight penalty to RWD cars made FWD vastly superior)? I dont regularly follow this series so please correct me if I'm wrong. You are absolutely right, I'm aware of the physics of why FWD is inferior on paper. I can definitely understand why most cars under little to no restriction opt for AWD or RWD platforms. However, the point I am making is that the performance difference between FWD and RWD is not always as massive as one would think. Using the BTCC example, if "all" it takes to make a FWD competitive with RWD in professional racing is some 20-40 kg, then on a more amateur level it makes even less difference (as indicated by John's video). I would also like to note, even though its not really related to this discussion, that (at least from what I have seen on an amateur level) racing a car isnt only down to physics. Its also about race strategy, skill of the drivers and crew, and a lot of other factors. You could have a perfect car design on paper but may suffer lots of other issues through the season that would prevent you from winning. While I agree driveline choice is a big factor I think its really impossible to say just how much influence it actually has in the context of everything else that could go right/wrong during a racing season. At a professional level, "everything else" might be less of a factor since you have the best drivers, best engineers, best everything but I dont think you can ever say anything for sure. Edited June 9, 2011 by h4nsm0l3m4n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 FWD cars have won the Indy 500 a number of times. You guys can argue Internet Engineering all you want but when the green flag drops, I've seen FWD cars humble many RWD cars. Again, driveline configuration isn't the big issue on a race track that it seems to be on the Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Which is not to say that you can't have a fast FWD car, but all else being equal, a FWD car will be at a disadvantage. Just look at the driveline choices for supercars, where there are no rule restrictions. "All else being equal" is a BS Internet Engineering argument. Nothing is ever equal. The race I posted above was in an unlimited race category (Super Unlimited) with NASA. Super Unlimited is a class that encompasses all types of racecars that do not fit in a particular NASA class. This class is home for racecars that are built specifically to each owner's taste and budget. As a result, this class is known for hosting big-dollar equipment that is a thrill to see on the track. Again, a H1 class Honda Civic, driven very well, beat a lot of big dollar RWD cars on the track. H1 Hybrid VehiclesA Hybrid Vehicle is defined as any non-Restricted Preparation Vehicle (as specified below) built with components that are sourced from a stock Honda or Acura vehicle of a different model, domestic market or generation. These sourced components may be for the engine, the transmission, the suspension, the driveline, etc. Certain updating/backdating is allowed and will NOT, per se, classify the vehicle as a Hybrid. FYI... Jack's Honda had to weight 2,400 lbs with driver. That was 200 lbs. heavier then the GT2 RX7s he was running against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 The Honda was faster than the other cars on that day. That proves nothing about which platform is better. AWD has a distinct physics advantage. The quoted fastest lap time on youtube was 1:30.8. Your car went faster than that. Does that prove that a Datsun is faster than a Viper? Or does it prove that YOUR Datsun was faster than THAT Viper on THAT track on the day that you were there? I lapped a 2002 911 Turbo in a 20 minute session at Buttonwillow. Does that meant that my Datsun was faster than a 911T, or that I was faster in my Datsun than the dentist driving the 911T? Does it prove that Front Engine is superior to Rear Engine? I beat two different Vipers in my Toyota truck at autoxes. Does that mean that my Toyota was faster than those Vipers? Or that I was faster in my Toyota than those Viper drivers were at those autoxes? Does it prove that leaf springs are superior to SLA? Anecdotal evidence isn't proof or disproof of a larger theory. Anyone who says that FWD has to be slow is an idiot, and I think that's what you're getting at mostly, but this video proves nothing about the larger argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 "All else being equal" is a BS Internet Engineering argument. Nothing is ever equal. The race I posted above was in an unlimited race category (Super Unlimited) with NASA. So what's the point of this thread then? Showing that a particular car won one race with a million different variables coming in to play proves nothing. "All else being equal" is not a BS argument, it's priciple of science that allows us to establish actual facts, and not just meaningless conjecture, which is what the internet is really full of. BTW, I've had FWD cars run circles around my Z at the track. How about we talk about live axle vs independent suspension instead? Or drum brakes vs disk brakes. Mid engine vs front engine... Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Science doesn't win races. I can do lots of science to prove that the odds of Jack winning his class in that race were slim to none. That's my point. You and I can do lots of science here on the Internet to show that a FWD can't win against a RWD car "all else being equal" and none of that means crap when the green flag falls. Its Internet Engineering Masturbation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Science doesn't win races? I seriously doubt you take that stance when trying to figure out what to do to make your car handle better in order to win a race... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Given that all cars in this race were not equal, it was all driver. One is not better than the other, it is all what you are used too, and what you make of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Science doesn't win races? I seriously doubt you take that stance when trying to figure out what to do to make your car handle better in order to win a race... Preparation wins races. To be even more nit-picky, nothing we do is science. Its just application of technology. Science is that whole Theory, Experiment/Observation, Document, and Publish thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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