M Coupe or S2000?

[Leon]

If you "drive like a grandpa" then you'll likely be happiest with the C5. It is remarkably tolerant to low rpm/high gears. All of the others require attention to being in the power-band that the engine most prefers. My M3 (the regular E36, not the 2-seater) has a 3.7 rear, whereas stock is something like 3.15. This definitely helps with apparent feel at low rpms, but the price is high highway rpms (3500 rpm at 70 mph), the hit in mileage, and the need for a very early 1st-->2nd upshift.

 

The C5 Z06 is geared more deeply than the regular C5, so that's another reason to opt for the Z06.

 

I drive like a grandpa on my commutes, meaning 65mph or slower and in the right lane. I get on it only when I need to pass or merge onto the freeway. It helps save gas (100mi round-trip commute), lets me relax and keep my sanity. Plus, I've never had a ticket (knock-knock-knock on wood ). Since I keep my speed down on the freeway, low gearing is not a problem and I actually prefer it.

 

AutoX and spirited weekend drives are another thing altogether!

[Mikelly]

Both the C5 and the C5Z06 have a 3.42 ring and pinion. The trans gearing is very similar, and not something I'd consider a huge reason to pick one over the other. The M12 came in the C5Z and the M6 came in the regular C5.

 

Transmissions

A4, MN6, MN12

1st Gear 3.06 2.66 2.97

2nd Gear 1.63 1.78 2.07

3rd Gear 1.00 1.30 1.43

4th Gear 0.70 1.00 1.00

5th Gear --- 0.74 0.84

6th Gear --- 0.50 0.56

Reverse 2.29 2.90 3.28

 

Mike

 

If you "drive like a grandpa" then you'll likely be happiest with the C5. It is remarkably tolerant to low rpm/high gears. All of the others require attention to being in the power-band that the engine most prefers. My M3 (the regular E36, not the 2-seater) has a 3.7 rear, whereas stock is something like 3.15. This definitely helps with apparent feel at low rpms, but the price is high highway rpms (3500 rpm at 70 mph), the hit in mileage, and the need for a very early 1st-->2nd upshift.

 

The C5 Z06 is geared more deeply than the regular C5, so that's another reason to opt for the Z06.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Mikelly

[JMortensen]

For autox look at the top speed in 2nd gear. That might make a bit of difference, as it sucks to run out of gear on a straightaway and be running on the rev limiter, but doing so is almost always faster than shifting. Depending on where you run and your course layouts, 70 or 75 in 2nd should do nicely with a fast car. The Marina autoxes near Laguna Seca had some nice open courses and sticky concrete. That's a fun place to run. Haven't been to any other autoxes in the bay area.

[Leon]

For autox look at the top speed in 2nd gear. That might make a bit of difference, as it sucks to run out of gear on a straightaway and be running on the rev limiter, but doing so is almost always faster than shifting. Depending on where you run and your course layouts, 70 or 75 in 2nd should do nicely with a fast car. The Marina autoxes near Laguna Seca had some nice open courses and sticky concrete. That's a fun place to run. Haven't been to any other autoxes in the bay area.

 

Good point JM, but the gearing difference between the cars will not be a "make it or break it" kind of thing. However, for the hell of it I compiled top speeds in second gear for the three finalists!

 

M Coupe (S52) - 61.7 mph

S2000 (AP1) - 66.3 mph

S2000 (AP2) - 60 mph

C5 Z06 - 71.5 mph

[clutchdust]

Both the C5 and the C5Z06 have a 3.42 ring and pinion. The trans gearing is very similar, and not something I'd consider a huge reason to pick one over the other. The M12 came in the C5Z and the M6 came in the regular C5.

 

Transmissions

A4, MN6, MN12

1st Gear 3.06 2.66 2.97

2nd Gear 1.63 1.78 2.07

3rd Gear 1.00 1.30 1.43

4th Gear 0.70 1.00 1.00

5th Gear --- 0.74 0.84

6th Gear --- 0.50 0.56

Reverse 2.29 2.90 3.28

 

Mike

This is, in my opinion, one mandatory change to any manual c5. My '01 has the MN6 with 3.42 rear. At some point I plan on changing the rear gearing to 4.10. With a 0.56:1 6th gear, it is worthless at anything less than 80mph. I did an empirical data experiment and could not get a distinguishable gas consumption difference between 5th and 6th gear at 75mph, that and 75 feels like it's lugging the motor.

[JMortensen]

I wouldn't focus on the top gears, especially considering the wide spread between 5th and 6th. I think you'll get much better performance by just ignoring 6th. I believe you can delete the skip shift nonsense.

[Mikelly]

Yup, it's a $60 part. I'm installing one on a friend's car on Friday evening when we flush his fluids and install some Z06 mufflers on his C5Vert.

 

Mike

[Mikelly]

Yup, it's a $60 part. I'm installing one on a friend's car on Friday evening when we flush his fluids and install some Z06 mufflers on his C5Vert.

 

Mike

[clutchdust]

I wouldn't focus on the top gears, especially considering the wide spread between 5th and 6th. I think you'll get much better performance by just ignoring 6th. I believe you can delete the skip shift nonsense.

Skip shift? What's that? I've had the eliminator ever since I got my car. Even so, I can probably count on two hands how many times I've seen that stupid "shift" light come on.

I plan on switching out the rear gear because I really don't understand why I should be able to see 52mph in first gear. Just proves to me that the gearing in the tranny is right, just the final drive gear is wrong. Every one I've talked to that's done the 4.10 swap say it is the way the car should have come.

[Mikelly]

Do some more research then. There are a bunch of guys who have broken shafts and cases from the R/P sideloading... If you're going to upgrade the gearing, I'd look at the billet bridge/side plates and forged shafts.

 

We just upgraded a friend's trans/diff to RPM Stage 4 units and they're pretty beefy. He's going to make it a DE/Track terror, so that might be overkill for you, and with the upgraded clutch kit/LWFW/3inch torquetube/guebbos I think he was $7500 shipped for everything. It should last a long time though. For what it's worth, he kept the 3.42s and upgraded the gears/shiftforks and other internals...

 

Mike

Edited December 1, 2011 by Mikelly

[JMortensen]

Skip shift? What's that? I've had the eliminator ever since I got my car. Even so, I can probably count on two hands how many times I've seen that stupid "shift" light come on.

I plan on switching out the rear gear because I really don't understand why I should be able to see 52mph in first gear. Just proves to me that the gearing in the tranny is right, just the final drive gear is wrong. Every one I've talked to that's done the 4.10 swap say it is the way the car should have come.

I was inclined to disagree with you, but I just worked it out here: http://webspace.webring.com/people/cz/z_design_studio/ and with the Vette rear tire size of 275/40/18, the 3.42 gears with T56 gets you 57 mph in 1st and 85 in 2nd. A 4.11 gets, 47 in 1st and 70 in 2nd at 6500 rpm. A 3.73 gear gets 52 in 1st and 78 in 2nd, and a 3.90 gets 50 and 74. For my money, I'd go 3.73 or 3.90.

 

 

 

That said, when you're ready I'd love to sell you that gear: http://m2differentials.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=c5+ring+and+pinion and an install kit: http://m2differentials.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=791_1339_1538_1597&products_id=4959

 

Not a vette guy myself, so I've never even heard of the billet side plates or forced (forged?) shafts.

[Mikelly]

Yes forged... sometimes typos happen.

 

Mike

[Leon]

Well, I took a look at and drove this M Coupe today.

 

These cars are definitely smaller than they look in pictures, similar to the S30 actually. I fit, but not much room for a helmet, save popping the sunroof. Overall, it's really just a smaller, lighter, quicker M3. It's sort of reminiscent of the E30 M3, except with more power (and weight). It has a ton of torque (compared to what I'm used to) and a nice kick at higher rpm.

 

What I didn't like about this particular one is that upon inspection I found that it was hit in the front (new hood, left fender, bumper, headlights) and the front bumper did not align correctly. There were some slightly bent parts up front and some foreign-looking metal piping in front of the radiator. Shock mounts definitely need replacing and likely bushings, among other parts. There was no service history, and the guy was convinced that unmaintained E36 cooling systems are nothing to worry about. The salesman didn't seem like he really wanted to sell the car, even though it's been on the lot for 6 months or so. Apparently, he knows what these go for and everything else there is to know about cars...

 

I'm casually on the lookout for a nice Z06 in the area, other M Coupes and the S2000 is still in very strong consideration. We'll see how much pain Christmas will bring to my wallet!

[Bob_H]

I owned a 2000 M Coupe for a long time and tracked it quite a bit. I've tracked all the cars you listed - but track ability,(or autocross), should not be your primary deciding factor if your driving 500 miles a week and not going to autocross/track more than a few times a year.

ALL will be good track cars.

The key is the other stuff - how is it day to day. The M Coupe will pull about 24mpg for regular highway driving. Best I ever got was about 26mpg. There are issues with any 10 year old car - pay for a well maintainted and documented example no matter what you choose. If you have no maint. records - plan on paying the bottom dollar to give you some room to fix/repair items.

My parents bought my '00 M coupe and are going to sell it soon - my brother in law is a BMW master mech and went over the car head-toe replacing/fixing everything. I don't know what they want, but I'd expect close to $20k if not more - likely out of your price range but it gives you an idea of price range. It does have the sunroof - so may not be an option for you. I will tell you the Non sunroof M Coupe is a rare bird indeed - very rare... You of course are only talking about the S52 M Coupes since the S54's,(01-02), are mid 20'ks minimum.

The snap oversteer is not really snap oversteer like an older porsche. The car was a wonderful "drivers" car - very responsive and communicative. Semi trailing arm does have its drawbacks if you don't drive it certain ways - but chopping a throttle mid corner will not snap the rear around - but it does bring the rear around faster than some other cars,(it also has a short wheelbase). I loved "dancing" it at the limit and still think it was one of the most rewarding cars to drive at speed.

The S2000's are fun - lacking torque, but fast and predictable. Prices have really fallen on these and they are your cheapest option.

The C5 vette is absolutely your best speed/bang for your dollar. They do have shortcomings as described above - heat soak, cheap interiors/etc... However, speed wise, they are on top of your list by a good margin. Although the S52 M Coupe can keep up with a regular C5 except on longer straights - where it walks away.

In the end, drive them all, find the one you can live with 5 days a week - not just the one day a month at the autocross.

-Bobby

[Leon]

I owned a 2000 M Coupe for a long time and tracked it quite a bit. I've tracked all the cars you listed - but track ability,(or autocross), should not be your primary deciding factor if your driving 500 miles a week and not going to autocross/track more than a few times a year.

ALL will be good track cars.

The key is the other stuff - how is it day to day. The M Coupe will pull about 24mpg for regular highway driving. Best I ever got was about 26mpg. There are issues with any 10 year old car - pay for a well maintainted and documented example no matter what you choose. If you have no maint. records - plan on paying the bottom dollar to give you some room to fix/repair items.

My parents bought my '00 M coupe and are going to sell it soon - my brother in law is a BMW master mech and went over the car head-toe replacing/fixing everything. I don't know what they want, but I'd expect close to $20k if not more - likely out of your price range but it gives you an idea of price range. It does have the sunroof - so may not be an option for you. I will tell you the Non sunroof M Coupe is a rare bird indeed - very rare... You of course are only talking about the S52 M Coupes since the S54's,(01-02), are mid 20'ks minimum.

The snap oversteer is not really snap oversteer like an older porsche. The car was a wonderful "drivers" car - very responsive and communicative. Semi trailing arm does have its drawbacks if you don't drive it certain ways - but chopping a throttle mid corner will not snap the rear around - but it does bring the rear around faster than some other cars,(it also has a short wheelbase). I loved "dancing" it at the limit and still think it was one of the most rewarding cars to drive at speed.

The S2000's are fun - lacking torque, but fast and predictable. Prices have really fallen on these and they are your cheapest option.

The C5 vette is absolutely your best speed/bang for your dollar. They do have shortcomings as described above - heat soak, cheap interiors/etc... However, speed wise, they are on top of your list by a good margin. Although the S52 M Coupe can keep up with a regular C5 except on longer straights - where it walks away.

In the end, drive them all, find the one you can live with 5 days a week - not just the one day a month at the autocross.

-Bobby

 

Bobby, thanks! That's the kind of post I love to see!

 

You are completely right about autoX or track driving not dictating the purchase. I realize that it's probably less than 1% of the driving I do and choosing a car for that 1% would be a bit silly. This car definitely has to be one I can live with day-to-day. After all, I have the Z if I want a harsh ride, virtually no sound insulation, loud exhaust, no heater, no defrost, and no power steering!

 

I really appreciate the mpg numbers, I thought the M Coupe would get better than 26mpg but I'm not surprised. This is the draw of the S2000 and Z06, both are seemingly capable of 30mpg without much trouble. On the topic of the sunroof, I now realize that (in the M Coupe's case) it actually adds a bit of headroom, so that eases the search. Maintenance is the other big thing. The typical ~$15k M Coupe will need a few things, whereas the S2000 should be good to go. The Honda's reliability always pulls me back to the S2k. Plus, I do think the S2000 is very good looking, although it doesn't have the presence of an M Coupe.

 

I will be doing my due diligence to figure out what I really want. More test drives to come, hopefully I'll hop into a Z06 soon!

[Gollum]

I happen to know of someone (who might be on this very board) who owns a E36 M3 with a LSX who gets high 20's mpg (27-28 iirc) and has somewhere around $10k in the car.... That's 5k under your budget.

 

So how's 4 seats, comfy ride, great handling and driving feel, 6 liters, decent mpg, and under budget sound? That's my choice right there.

 

It's not as light as a S2k, but it's still definitely a drivers car and "feels" right, which matters more to me than raw data. Plus, in raw data it'll put most cars in it's weight class to shame in cornering prowess. There's a reason the BMW 3 series regularly makes top choice in class in all the car mags. Putting a LSX in it just makes it that much better.

[Leon]

I happen to know of someone (who might be on this very board) who owns a E36 M3 with a LSX who gets high 20's mpg (27-28 iirc) and has somewhere around $10k in the car.... That's 5k under your budget.

 

So how's 4 seats, comfy ride, great handling and driving feel, 6 liters, decent mpg, and under budget sound? That's my choice right there.

 

It's not as light as a S2k, but it's still definitely a drivers car and "feels" right, which matters more to me than raw data. Plus, in raw data it'll put most cars in it's weight class to shame in cornering prowess. There's a reason the BMW 3 series regularly makes top choice in class in all the car mags. Putting a LSX in it just makes it that much better.

 

The thought did briefly pop into my head! However, it's a lot of work, for which I have absolutely no time and I'd have to go through a bit of a process to make a swap like that legal in CA. It's a cool car, but I'm essentially looking for a "plug-and-play" (turnthekey-and-play? ) kind of thing.

[afbrian13]

All this debate is kinda why I have been considering an A6 (like I posted about in a different thread) Of course its a nice ride, great everyday handling, twin turbo 6 speed AWD-where I live its snowing right now, plus I have kids. They're really fun to drive if you've been considering a M3. I really like the Z3 and Z4's though. I'd like to get the A6 and keep my Z, but I don't know if thats an option for me right now.

 

Just figured I'd toss the Audi idea out there. S4?

[Gollum]

The thought did briefly pop into my head! However, it's a lot of work, for which I have absolutely no time and I'd have to go through a bit of a process to make a swap like that legal in CA. It's a cool car, but I'm essentially looking for a "plug-and-play" (turnthekey-and-play? ) kind of thing.

 

Used STI??? Epic smog passability too. I've driven them stock, and modified and they're worlds of fun. They kinda suck in the MPG battle though.

 

Overall I like the S2k, I'm just thinking outside the box for ya.

 

The main thing I don't like about the S2k is that I've usually felt they were overpriced for what they are, but they've been steadily dropping finally. They don't get great MPG for the power level and displacement of a Honda motor, and there's just nowhere to go with the engine without getting radical. If I was gonna buy a honda there's many other options I'd go with. If I wanted a RWD roadster I'd just get a Miata and be done with it. BUT, as the prices drop... they ARE tempting. And all that critical stuff said, they're great cars and I don't bash anyone too bad for buying one. I'd gladly drive one every day.

 

I'd also keep an eye out for cars others have built too. You don't always have to buy a "stock" car. A well done completely project car that's already been proven through a decent amount of road time can be a wonderful buy too. All the fun with none of the work. But again, legality of some of the cars you see is definitely a question worth asking.

[Leon]

All this debate is kinda why I have been considering an A6 (like I posted about in a different thread) Of course its a nice ride, great everyday handling, twin turbo 6 speed AWD-where I live its snowing right now, plus I have kids. They're really fun to drive if you've been considering a M3. I really like the Z3 and Z4's though. I'd like to get the A6 and keep my Z, but I don't know if thats an option for me right now.

 

Just figured I'd toss the Audi idea out there. S4?

The S4 was on my list, although it was the B6/B7 generation (4.2L V8). Frankly, I would not even touch the bi-turbos. The reliability was disastrous!

 

What pulled me away from the S4 was the portliness (weighs as much as a small yacht ), horrendous gas mileage, and reliability/maintenance/parts cost. They do have a nice interior and a sweet engine. However, it's just not the type of car I'm looking for. It's a luxury sedan with hints of sports car. I must admit that I did drool over them!

 

Used STI??? Epic smog passability too. I've driven them stock, and modified and they're worlds of fun. They kinda suck in the MPG battle though.

 

Overall I like the S2k, I'm just thinking outside the box for ya.

 

The main thing I don't like about the S2k is that I've usually felt they were overpriced for what they are, but they've been steadily dropping finally. They don't get great MPG for the power level and displacement of a Honda motor, and there's just nowhere to go with the engine without getting radical. If I was gonna buy a honda there's many other options I'd go with. If I wanted a RWD roadster I'd just get a Miata and be done with it. BUT, as the prices drop... they ARE tempting. And all that critical stuff said, they're great cars and I don't bash anyone too bad for buying one. I'd gladly drive one every day.

 

I'd also keep an eye out for cars others have built too. You don't always have to buy a "stock" car. A well done completely project car that's already been proven through a decent amount of road time can be a wonderful buy too. All the fun with none of the work. But again, legality of some of the cars you see is definitely a question worth asking.

I've driven the 2008 STI and honestly did not like it. The power delivery is fun but everything else is just, bleh. Although, when my fiancee and I were looking for a car we did check out a 2006 WRX wagon. I really liked that car for what it is. It's very versatile, yet fun. I enjoyed it more than the STI, actually! You're right about the mpg though.

 

I really like the S2k. I've never had a problem with their prices and would much prefer one to the Miata, which feels anemic compared to the Honda. It will get 30mpg if I drive it like I drive my Accord, which gets 31-33 mpg. I think that Honda's engineers did a fantastic job with it and I don't feel the need to modify anything. I like it the way it is!

 

I've always been very wary of other people's projects, even when completed and road-tested. My rule has always been that if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a car, it will not be modified, or very minimally so. If I feel the need, I'll do the modifications myself. I prefer to start with stock, and in the case of the S2k, M Coupe, and probably Z06, I don't think they need a thing!

 

I do really appreciate the advice and thinking outside the box. It's much better to have all your eyes and minds on this, instead of me obsessively blabbering to my fiancee until her ears bleed.