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duragg

R200 Vibration Issues

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Last year I installed an R200 CLSD with 4.375 (I shimmed the clutches, inspected all and it turned freely and nicely).

Once installed I had vibration issues at higher speeds. Past 80 is a fast nasty scary buzzing.

 

So far I have:

Had a new driveshaft made and balanced.

New R/T mount with Energy bushing to replace the solid mount.

Swapped a bunch of different half-shafts.

Verified the half-shafts are not binding and nothing is hitting anything else.

 

Today I put the Z on jackstands, removed the rear wheels and secured the drums then ran in 5th gear and past 3000rpm the buzz really comes in.

It is purely related to speed of the car. Happens in neutral, and any gear as long as going fast enough.

 

One thing I don't get is why the snap-in side axles into the R200 are not tight.

You can wiggle them around as seen in this video:

 

Video of the car running on the stands at idle.

The rattling noise is the culprit or just gear backlash (or both)?

 

I see some other issues with the brakes in this video but those will be fixed with the upcoming Disk / Coilover conversion.

Edited by duragg

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I don't have a video to prove it, but I don't think my snap-in half shaft can be moved like that. Check with JMortensen and Savage42, but perhaps your carrier bearings are shot?? If they agree, it sucks to have to pull it all apart, but once you have it out, replacing the carrier bearings is not that difficult if you have a press - heck, you could always just take it to a machine shop to have them pressed on and off. Since you've been inside your diff, is it possible that you left the big washers off of the carrier, between the carrier bearings and the case?

 

I didn't know Kylie Minogue was that hot, damn, I'm gonna have to watch your videos again.

Edited by RebekahsZ

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The washers are there for sure.

 

What is it that sets the "tightness" of the snap-ins? Is it those side bearings?

I spun them and they seemed fine when I had it all apart, but clearly that don't mean squat.

 

 

Its not that big a deal to pull the diffy and replace if this is the case.

 

Waiting for more confirmation from the big-wigs...

 

Better to replace the side bearings and maybe find new side-axles than damage the carrier.

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Until the big guns check in and render their opinion, I guess my first choice of action is to find some different snap-in side flange axles and see if they are better.

Hopefully it is the snap-ins that are worn and not the diff carrier which is a bigger issue.

 

 

But the question still remains, what is "normal" movement of the snap-ins.

 

 

 

Tj

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Maybe I've offended a moderator with my comments about Barbara Eden. I've never seen a post just disappeared with no comment and no trace. If my post from last night offended, please accept my apologies.

 

I thought that your snap-in axles had a lot of movement also. You've described it before, but your video shows a lot more movement than any that I've seen, but I've only seen a few. I have a few spare diffs in the garage, and I've had the axles in and out and a couple of CV axles also. None had that much wiggle in them.

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I've seen that kind of movement with side axles in the R180 and R200. The rattling noise in the video is from the various drive line clearances with no load on them and/or the brake drums rattling around. I would check for metal to metal contact in any part of the diff mounting.

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Assuming the axles are all the way snapped into the side gears in the diff, the movement in the side gears is due to gear lash in the spiders or slop in the splines between the side stubs and the side gears. You're right that the side bearings can be perfect and there can still be some movement in the halfshafts, because the side bearings capture the LSD, and the side gears move around inside the LSD.The question is: do you have too much lash? That looks like a surprising amount to me because the LSD should be putting spring pressure which would prevent it from moving easily. If you had an open diff I would expect to see some movement there, but not on an LSD. I haven't checked for this kind of movement in a while, so I'm just guessing what it should look like. If you had someone else with a CLSD on the bench who could do that same test, that would be better. Regardless, this is a bit of a red herring, because the LSD isn't doing anything at all when you're driving straight or running the car on jackstands. It's pretty safe to say that the movement in the side stubs is not related to the vibration.

 

If your problem is at speed, then the obvious issues to look for are driveshaft angularity and tire balance. If you're getting the problem with the wheels removed, then you're down to driveshaft angle. I don't think driveshaft angle issues are only to be found on engine swapped cars. I had a friend with a 70 that had a pretty bad vibration at about 65 that was obviously driveshaft related. She had swapped tires front to back and tried different wheels, etc. The only other thing I could see is something bent, like the pinion flange or something like that. On the early cars you could shim the trans crossmember down and I think she fixed it that way.

 

Agree with John that you're not hearing backlash.

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/105207-the-dreaded-diff-clunk/

 

 

 

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John I corrected all the metal / metal issues and everything is clear.

Sure seems like those half shafts wiggling around at 1000+ RPM would certainly make a buzzing racket..

 

I could pull the halfshafts and try again and see if still there.

Then remove the side shafts and see if still there.

Eventually something removed will not be able to buzz the whole car like a vibrator.

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JM: Where are you seeing Lash? In the one video the right half-shaft isn't spining, just demonstrating the wiggle in the side shaft.

 

In the other video the car is running and the clacking is the lash you reference?

The springs and shims are nice and tight and it is about 80ft-lbs of breakaway.

 

But striaght driving and even on the jackstands with tires removed the buzzing vibration is pretty gnarly.

 

New driveshaft balanced with no change.

 

 

 

Assuming the axles are all the way snapped into the side gears in the diff, the movement in the side gears is due to gear lash in the spiders or slop in the splines between the side stubs and the side gears. You're right that the side bearings can be perfect and there can still be some movement in the halfshafts, because the side bearings capture the LSD, and the side gears move around inside the LSD.The question is: do you have too much lash? That looks like a surprising amount to me because the LSD should be putting spring pressure which would prevent it from moving easily. If you had an open diff I would expect to see some movement there, but not on an LSD. I haven't checked for this kind of movement in a while, so I'm just guessing what it should look like. If you had someone else with a CLSD on the bench who could do that same test, that would be better. Regardless, this is a bit of a red herring, because the LSD isn't doing anything at all when you're driving straight or running the car on jackstands. It's pretty safe to say that the movement in the side stubs is not related to the vibration.

 

If your problem is at speed, then the obvious issues to look for are driveshaft angularity and tire balance. If you're getting the problem with the wheels removed, then you're down to driveshaft angle. I don't think driveshaft angle issues are only to be found on engine swapped cars. I had a friend with a 70 that had a pretty bad vibration at about 65 that was obviously driveshaft related. She had swapped tires front to back and tried different wheels, etc. The only other thing I could see is something bent, like the pinion flange or something like that. On the early cars you could shim the trans crossmember down and I think she fixed it that way.

 

Agree with John that you're not hearing backlash.

http://forums.hybrid...ded-diff-clunk/

 

 

 

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By the way, when I rebuilt the clutches I recall the spiders being nice and secure in the housing. No play there.

 

THis leaves the internal splines in the carrier and the external splines in the snap-ins.

Easy enough to try a different set.

 

At some point a dial indicator on the flanges :(

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I just talked to the guy that built the D/S and he said they balance up to 3200rpm.

 

at 60mph with 23" tires I would be around 869rpm wheels and 3800 on the driveshaft.

I would think if it was good at 3200 it would be good at 3800.

 

Plus I've run 2 totally different driveshafts with no change at all.

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The fact that the side stub moves indicates that there is lash somewhere. When you move the side stub around, something inside is moving. It's either lash on the splines (or loose splines if you prefer) or it's lash in the spider gears. Some amount of spider gear lash is normal. As John said, you can really easily feel it with an open diff, because the lash is fixed. On the LSD, the spring clutches compress the side gears into the pinion gears, so that's why I would think that you wouldn't be able to move it easily.

 

I think your vibration is cause by a driveshaft misalignment issue. Look for the threads with the laser pointers and try that method to see if your angles are right.

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Check it the right way. I'd think that once you get past gross errors, it's probably impossible to look and tell anything meaningful about alignment. It's like looking at steering arms and control arms to see what the bumpsteer is like. Can't be done.

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I have a 4.375 R200 CLSD sitting around and can check what mine is like. I haven't had it apart, but not sure on its history. I'll just have to remember to do so after I get home from work...

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I feel your pain. I have been chasing a buzzy vibration in my car that is most prevelant at 80+ mph. Enought to blur the rear view, but not scary.

Had everything balanced and angle of dangle checked by a driveshaft speciality shop-this is with a RT mount, and they said it was perfect.

I started looking at straight line alignment-ran a string line from the tailshaft on the tranny to the center of the pinion-you might to try that.

My alignment is close enough to not be able to tell from the naked eye whether it is dead nits or not. I would ASSUME that the driveshaft shop checked that alignment as well as the angle.

While under there I started yanking on thinks again and found a bad halfshaft. I had always concentrated on checking the U-joints, never thought to grab the center of the shaft and work it. In my case I had plenty of slop on one side-there should be NONE. Haven't taken it apart yet, but assuming a bad ball bearing or worn spline.

 

I notified the shop that supposedly balanced my halfshaft- the tech claimed that regardless of me finding that bad shaft, it would not cause my vibration.

I just got a different shaft and replaced U-joints, I haven't mounted it yet, so sorry for the no-report!

 

You said you swapped out shafts, but have you checked them for this kind of wear?. It's best to put the body in a vise so you can really yank on the spline with it pulled out.

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I have checked the Half-Shafts and didn't really detect any unusual play at all.

I think tonight I will pull the half-shafts and Clip-in axles and run it again.

 

If the Vibration is totally GONE< then the trouble is likely after the Diffy Carrier and before the wheel.

If the problem is still there> then the trouble is likely Diffy and Driveshaft.

 

With my R180 I didn't have this problem, so I think it is not transmission.

It was only after throwing in this R200 that life got interesting.

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Tonight was my night to put the Z back on the stand and pull the Half-shafts and side flanges and run the vibration test again.

 

But then the A/C compressor at my house shti the bed and blew the breaker (I live in Phoenix).

It was a 39 year old Chrysler AirTemp..... fair enough.

 

8iuuuuuuuuu54778124 <--- Cat walked across keyboad there, sorry.

 

Then while visiting neighbor to have a cocktail his POS dog attacked my leg, forgot to hump and sunk his teeth into my calf.

Main puncture of .25", cleaned and closed with Superglue.

 

Whats up with 2012???

I am about to think 2009 was better.

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Dude, you are crashing and burning. Take a couple days off the project or you are going to accidentally kick a jackstand and drop your car on your head, or take a hammer to the windshield in frustration. I can tell you are approaching the breaking point. Take two days off and get some sleep.

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