Hypothetical Engine Swap for 240z

[_Donovan_]

:lol:

[johnc]

Not that I have this kind of money, but if you're spending $50k-$80k on a project 240z (and do it right), how would it compare with say a Ferrari 550? Now before I get flamed to hell and back for asking that question, allow me to advance the notion that they're actually very similar cars in form/function. Their vast discrepancies are in performance/luxury, and that's what Z upgrades are designed to help with! I think it's a fair question.

 

Given a budget similar to the price of a good used 550 I'm pretty sure I can equal the performance and come within 75% of the luxury. Wind noise and NVH will the areas where you won't be able to equal the 550 due to the basic S30 chassis. I can equal the ride (the 550s actually don't ride that well), handling, acceleration, and decelleration.

 

http://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/Search/DRauSearchResults.aspx?sorttype=1&makeid=31&makename=Ferrari&modelid=97&modelname=550

[Jon 74 260Z]

To the OP:

First you write, "In fact, I'm working with a $40k total budget." Then, in your next post, you said, "Not that I have this kind of money, but if you're spending $50k-$80k on a project 240z..."

 

Which is it? Do you have the money or don't you?? (Or is that 10k delta a deal-breaker?) Oh wait, nevermind. You're 23 years old -- I've lost interest in any potential answer you might have to this question.

 

To johnc:

"the 550s actually don't ride that well"

 

Uhhhh....., doesn't it matter if the "Sport Mode" is set on the suspension setting?

[_Donovan_]

HAHAaa, I knew this thread would come to this. Took longer than expected though.

 

BTW Jon, I am moving to San Jose area in a few weeks. Any good areas you would suggest to search for apartments?

[Leon]

To clarify a little, handling and comfort would definitely take a higher priority than the engine.

Buy the S2000, because you will give up that comfort on a modified Z-car. I have an S2000 as well, although I don't drive it everyday (commute is 100 miles round trip). However, it feels like a luxury car when driving it back-to-back with my Z, yet manages to corner better! Now, my Z isn't as sorted as I'd like it to be but it'll never get to the level of the S2k in terms of comfort/cornering prowess.

 

 

The S2000 is about as far from a chick's car as you can get, how many girls have you seen driving them?

 

The C5 Z06 was on my shopping list (along with an E36 M Coupe) but didn't make the cut. They're more expensive over here, and although the numbers are staggering, it just doesn't "do it" for me.

[_Donovan_]

Over here in East coast I have a few chick friends with a S2000, know some dudes with them as well but they as about as close to a chick as you can get. I don't know, I classify them with a RX-8 when it comes to feminine or masculine, they just seem too "pretty" or "cute" to see myself driving one on the regular.

 

My biggest reason for getting the Vette was I couldn't handle driving my 350Z anymore. I loved everything about that car, bought it in '03 and had it till early '11. Did the basic stuff, intake, exhaust, 4.08 rear, lowered, and it ran great. I was at the point of wanting more power though. I considered the twin turbo route and occasionally thought about LS swap, although briefly. The money it would cost VS what you got didn't make sense to me at the time, since I could sell it and for not much more just upgrade the car to a C5. Then from there for less money that TT'ing the Z I could supercharge the Vette and be about 100hp or so above the Z and still have better all around car.

 

I miss the Z a lot though. Why I couldn't drive it was that it got to the point that I could not go out to get groceries with out some Mustang, Honda, Subaru, or Camaro/Firebird trying to race me in the worst of conditions. I don't mind messing around on back roads that are straights but I got ran off the road because a guy ran a red to try to catch me and was too busy trying to get my attention to notice the red ahead of us. He swerved towards me and ran us into the grass median. In the Vette not many people try to mess with me if at all. I guess most people just realize not to bother and it is so much more peaceful now.

[Leon]

The 'Vette was too "mid-life crisis" for me , and the interior was very underwhelming. The LS engine is a beauty though and 30mpg with 400hp is downright awesome!

 

Besides, I'd wanted an S2000 for years! I've gotten the cute comments, but just from girls and I don't mind . It reminds me of a modern-day Z, lightweight, timeless looks (IMO of course), and a fantastic engine plus a great chassis to complement it, not to mention the transmission (best I've used). I was most impressed about how reliable it is considering its nature, and maintenance is easy. Just like the original Z!

 

With that said, either choice is a good one. There's a reason the C5 Z06 was in my "final three"!

 

 

[johnc]

HAHAaa, I knew this thread would come to this. Took longer than expected though.

 

 

No. I think I called it in post 8.

[Pharaohabq]

I probably should just leave this thread alone, but the VQ engines are almost 300hp NA stock. If I have the $ I'd go vr38, but I don't and they dont' come up often. I've said it a lot of times, but if you're going to do a swap, the the WHOLE donor car. Kits like McKenney has can make your install almost bolt on. Yeah it's not cheap, but I've seen a few VQ swaps into 240sx' for around 5K for the DE. the HR engines run closer to 8K. On the cheap and doing all the fab yourself, you could probably get away for $1000 + donor cost. but that's not including gauges, interior etc. If you have someone do it for you, you'll blow through your 10K limit easy.

[GOTHALOSISM]

I'm getting a late SP1 s2k, or if I can find one a 70's stingray with a lsx swap done,very doubtfull on that though.

[AlleyCow]

Update:

 

Thanks for the advice guys. A big project car would be cool but it's definitely not what I need right now so two days ago I bought a black-on-black '04 S2000. Except for an iPod hookup, I'm not changing a thing. It's more than enough car for me right now... Sorry for using a 240z thread to mostly talk about a new(ish) Honda, but again you guys were really helpful!

[Leon]

Update:

 

Thanks for the advice guys. A big project car would be cool but it's definitely not what I need right now so two days ago I bought a black-on-black '04 S2000. Except for an iPod hookup, I'm not changing a thing. It's more than enough car for me right now... Sorry for using a 240z thread to mostly talk about a new(ish) Honda, but again you guys were really helpful!

Nice choice, mine is an '04 as well. You'll love it!

[BrandenZ]

Mine's also an 04, black-on-black! Picked it up in '06 and have done virtually nothing but oil changes, despite multiple track and autox events. Swap out to dot4 fluid, rewire the top to go up and down any time, and enjoy!

[Gollum]

Sounds like a troll to me.

 

His benchmark is a Honda S2K yet he's asking for 275 to 350 rwhp and 25 to 30mpg and an easy swap/upgrade all for under $10K. You can't even buy a decent stock S2K for $10 grand which doesn't meet his horsepower or mpg goals.

 

Hey guys, I think I feel a song coming on...

 

:singing:

Sad but truuuuuuue

That said and out of the way, I know the OP already bought his car, but you have to factor in your own time when you're looking at build costs comparing a project car to an "over the counter" car, like the S2k or 550. I'm pretty damn sure I could build a S30 that goes around a track faster than a S2k and gets better mpg for less money. But if I'm honest about the time it took to do so, well then it's a whole different margin.

 

Look at subtle_driver's KA powered S30. Super budget and would definitely meet said goals. The OP was talking about spending 10k on ENGINE ALONE, and 40k on the car?!

 

One of the big factors here though, is that you don't need 300hp to make the S30 competitive, even against the S2k. Maybe if you wanted a fully trimmed S30 with two layers of dynomat, stock steel body panels, power seats, etc. But that wasn't brought up in the original post. We were just talking about numbers on paper performance. It's not hard to get a S30 down to 2300 pounds, which is substantially lighter than the S2k. It's also not too hard to get the L motor to 200whp, and with the extra displacement should be at a lower RPM than the S2k giving it a power under the curve advantage, and don't forget that 200whp is about what the s2k puts down stock too... So really even just a "measly" 180whp in a S30 should give you plenty of power to weight ratio to play with and is perfectly attainable and done by many people around here, and in most cases for FAR less than 10k.

 

One of the large downsides to doing that with the NA L motor though is going to be MPG. As you get more and more agressive with the cam and/or head porting it's going to take more and more work to get a nice, good tune on there that will still get 30mpg, but still in the realm of a possibility I think.

 

That said, there's guys who have 350+whp L28ET motors that get 30mpg, though most of those have aftermarket EFI systems like megasquirt, haltech, wolf, etc.

 

But on THAT note, guys with LS1 motors can put well over 300 to the WHEELS with basic mods and also get 30mpg driving it nice.

 

There's also the VQ35DE motor with comes with 300+ hp and should also knock on the door of 30mpg just fine.

 

The BMW M52 motor also makes 190hp stock and you can find a fully running donor to drive home for less than 2.5k ANY day of the week, within 50 miles from anywhere in most cases. Should reach good MPG range.

 

Hell, the 1999 Mustang V6 3.8 makes 190hp and gets 27mpg in the heavy mustang chassis, and being a 3.8 would be a torque monster for being a 6 cylinder. Donor cars, again, very cheap.

 

VG30DE makes 222hp stock, but gets a "measly" 22hp in it's donor, and I don't think you could expect to get more than 25mpg unless driving like a grandma.

 

SR20 guys get 30mpg all the time, and those come with S2k neighborhood power, just over or under depending on model. And they're not that pricey when keeping power levels low.

 

What's my point in all this? You don't NEED 300hp to go fast, and you don't NEED 10k to build a fast motor. Your options are only as limited as your imagination to make something work. There's plenty of paved roads that have been traveled here on these forums. SBC, SBF, LSX, L28ET, SR20, etc. But you could also go wacky and do a turbo pinto motor, or a SHO V6. The only replacement for money when it comes to cars is time an ingenuity. It's much like tools. Ask any good experienced mechanic and they'll say that, yes, the right tool makes the job so much easier and you should always use the right tool for the job, but that when stuck the real mechanic will find a solution with the tools that are available. Creative problem solving is highly underrated these days.

 

So with all that, good luck on your future project, should you have one.

[johnc]

One of the big factors here though, is that you don't need 300hp to make the S30 competitive, even against the S2k. Maybe if you wanted a fully trimmed S30 with two layers of dynomat, stock steel body panels, power seats, etc. But that wasn't brought up in the original post. We were just talking about numbers on paper performance. It's not hard to get a S30 down to 2300 pounds, which is substantially lighter than the S2k. It's also not too hard to get the L motor to 200whp, and with the extra displacement should be at a lower RPM than the S2k giving it a power under the curve advantage, and don't forget that 200whp is about what the s2k puts down stock too... So really even just a "measly" 180whp in a S30 should give you plenty of power to weight ratio to play with and is perfectly attainable and done by many people around here, and in most cases for FAR less than 10k.

 

I beg to differ. For the 2003 Open Track Challenge my Rusty Old Datsun (2,150 lbs, 320 hp, Penske shocks, Hoosier R4s) went up against Rylan Hazelton's S2K (275hp, 2,250 lbs, JRZ shocks, Hoosier Slicks) and it was close. We battled on seven race tracks over seven days and Bryan and I barely beat Rylan and Aaron. The handling advantage the S2K has over the S30 is big.

 

http://pulpracing.com/otc8_2003.htm

 

"U3 [at Willow Springs] was a mind blower. Coffey and Lampe blasted to a 1:29.539, but more interestingly, Rylan and Aaron run a 1:29.7 in a normally aspirated S2000! With them throwing out weight, adding slicks and triple adjustable shocks, they out ran ALL the Touring cars, including the Mosler and Dearing's Viper! They were 9th fastest overall at Willow in an S2000. They only have 120 cubic inches, with four itty bitty cylinders. The only cars in front of them were the Comp Coupe, three Radicals, the Flamemobile, the Smith/Arnold BMW, Kennedy's Supercharged S2000, the Coffey/Lampe 240z and Wayne's 944 Turbo!"

[Gollum]

But John, don't tease us unless you're going to give us more info!

 

You give us the tire compounds, but what tire widths were you running? The S2k has quite the rear advantage stock for stock but we have no clue what you two were running.

 

And secondly, that was quite the modified S2k. And how much money had been put into modifying it? Those are two aspects we never even brought up in this thread. I was under the assumption we were talking about STOCK S2k's. BUT, we also never talked about what S2k we're talking about either. Most '05s are going for 20k+ easy, while I can find salvage title, but perfectly running '01s for less than 10k.

 

So in that sense, yes, beating a S2k for 10k total, purchasing the S30, doing up the motor, and getting the suspension in order would be VERY difficult to do. But if all I'm doing is trying to beat a stock '05 for 20k?... I bought my S30 for $1,100, already with a L28ET. Spend $1,500 on doing MS WELL, and I've got all the power I need. Budget another $2,000 for nice wide rims and stick street tires and there's still loads of money left to replace every bushing, make coil overs, etc.

 

It would cost a bit more to do it in NA trim, but as long as the serious weight advantage is maintained I'd say it's doable. But you're right john, as soon as you start talking modified vs modified, especially in the confines of race classes, it's a tough nut to crack indeed.

[MidnightRider]

Bro, you're in Germantown? You probably live like 10 minutes from my house! I live off Frank rd, next to CHS.

[johnc]

My car had 275/45-16 Hoosiers on 10" rims and Rylan's car had 11" wide racing slicks in back, 9 or 10" wide in front. And I had probably twice as much money into my car then Rylan has in his S2K. My engine, EMS, clutch, manifolds, exhaust, etc. cost more then his car did new. Add in a Quaife sequential trans and Penske 8760 triples and you could have got a couple S2ks for what was in my 240Z.

 

The comparison between Rylan's car and mine is the closest real world track comparison I know of.

 

At the time of OTC 2003 Rylan's car was fully developed. It was my car's first race outing after one day of track testing an tuning. After another year of tuning on my car and we dropped more the two seconds off those WSIR lap times. The rematch for 2004 never came about because Rylan blew his engine the day before the event in testing. Here's a pic of my co-driver Bryan making Rylan's junk engine his bitch:

 

[zgeezer]

If I were doing my swap over again, I'd take a very good look at the 3.8 L Ford v6 in the new Mustangs and trucks. My brother just bought one with a 6R80 AT for $1,000.00. [sacramento, CA and it is missing some sensors] While this is going into an early Falcon, it looks good to fit the Z tunnel with some reservation about the AT. These are base engines, rated 305hp and, if one is to believe the ford forums, they are underrated and thought to put 300hp to the ground. The 6r80 looks wide and high enough to require rebuilding the transmission tunnel.

 

g

 

 

 

Hey guys, been browsing the forums for a few months and definitely learned a lot. That said, I've got a pretty in-depth question about engine swaps for the 240z. Reason I'm asking is I'm 23 years old and really want a great DD/track sports car while I'm still single and don't care too much about lumbar support. I'm absolutely in love with the 240z, but am concerned that it might not measure up to newer sports cars without throwing down some serious money. I fully realize this is an apples-to-oranges thing, but I specifically have the Honda S2000 in mind.

 

SO... before I get a 240z I'd have to settle on an engine swap, and here's what I'm looking for:

1. 275-350 rwhp. The L24 may have been great in 1971, but it's really old and woefully underpowered in 2012 (even by BRZ standards). On the other extreme, 400+ hp seems excessive for a 2400 lb street car.

2. 6 cylinders a must. Being made by Nissan or being a straight-6 would be cool too. I like the idea of staying true to the 240z's roots, whatever that means.

3. 25-30 MPG. I'd want to keep this car for a while and am pretty darn sure gas is going to $8 a gallon in the next decade.

4. Handling. Higher midrange torque is nice, as is an engine that sits further back and helps with weight distribution.

5. Fuel injection. Kinda necessary given my horsepower & gas mileage expectations, but I also don't want to have to warm my car up every cold start.

6. Ease. I'll be doing most of the work myself and would want to get the swap done in 6 months tops. 2 or 3 months would be great.

7. Low cost. As in I don't want the entire swap+upgrades to cost more than $10k. I also don't want something that breaks down a lot or is expensive to get parts for. A great engine is important, but I'd rather save as much money as possible to put towards handling upgrades. While I'm on the subject, I'd prefer a NA engine. The way I see it, turbos are just a $1,000 expense waiting to happen. You can baby it to delay that $1k service bill, but that's no fun. In short, I'm strongly against turbos for everyday cars.

8. 5 speed transmission. 6 speed would be better. Also, the stick should definitely be able to fit in roughly the same spot as stock.

9. Room for A/C. I've heard this is a problem with the VQ series. Is that still the case with an entirely new system? (Like a Vintage Air unit?)

 

From research I've done already, there aren't any engines out there that fit the bill perfectly. I'm also somewhat aware of the pros/cons of the most common swaps. My big question is which engine do you guys think BEST fulfills the above requirements? L28? RB25? RB30? VQ35? VQ37?