inline6 Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) So, there has been a long silence because I damaged the cam a third time on fire up weeks ago. Yes, for a third time. Things changed for the third attempt were: Block sent to engine builder, dissembled, everything checked, only change was a touch up hone There were no blockages Cylinder head galleys checked for blockages. There were none - I cleaned them while I was there. Cylinder head oil supply hole opened up to .125" Nissan Comp head gasket opened a touch at Cylinder head supply hole for correction of alignment Brad Penn 30 wt break in oil - high zinc content Red line assembly lube on cam lobes Use of pressure oiling kit to blast oil through all oil galleys just before startup Rebello camshaft spray bar - I replaced the factory oil spray bar Same induction set up - everything adjusted as prior, when engine last ran - assures quick initial start up I hooked up the pressure tank to the oil sender location on the block. Opened the valve until I saw oil come out of the cam lobe that can be seen with the oil cap off. I closed the valve, removed the tank supply line from the block, put the oil pressure sender back on, and sprayed a touch of starter fluid in the carb air horns. The engine fired immediately. I ran it only for four minutes, pulled the valve cover, and most of the rocker pads had deposited some of their pad material onto the cam lobes. Third time was not a charm. Sent cam off for repairs (again). Sent rockers off for repairs (again). Received rockers back from Delta, 10 of 12 were good. Two had to be sent back. One of those came back good, one was about .013" out of plane with the rocker tip surface and had to be sent back again (this was like regrind four, or five, or six on this one - I lost count). Many hundreds of dollars later... I made a shaft out of 1/2 inch diam aluminum from Home Depot. I modded it to the fit the oil pump so I could drive the pump with a drill from above the distributor mount location. I tested that out with a dry oil pump. Despite repeated tries, oil never flowed. Don't ever put a dry oil pump on your l series. I then put some oil in the pump through the inlet/outlet holes and re-installed the pump with my "fake" shaft. I attached the drill and then squeezed the trigger to run the drill slowly. Wait for it (drill still running) wait for it... drill still running... and finally here comes the oil out of the cam and the Rebello spray bar. You can see a video of this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzW6H88qWF4 It is scary how long it takes for oil to start coming out of this cam. Today, I very carefully went about getting the engine started. The changes from last time were: Use of a block heater (a heating pad my engine builder sent to me) to heat Brad Penn 30 wt oil prior to starting - shop temperature was only something like 50 degrees Don Potter oil pump spring kit for oil pump bypass. Only one washer installed for maximum oil pressure kit supplies New valve springs which allow .050" to coil bind instead of the old ones which were around .028" to coil bind. Moly oil lube used on cam lobes Rocker arms left off, spark plugs out, for initial attempt to get oil to come from cam. Once the oil was up to very warm temperature, with the oil pump and the real oil pump shaft installed, and with the rockers left uninstalled and the spark plugs not installed, I turned the engine over with the starter. I did this tentatively at first. First just a few seconds. Then again, a little longer. Then a little longer... until I finally had some oil come out of the camshaft lobe holes. Next, I installed the rockers and adjusted them to .015" clearance (both intake and exhaust) per cam manufacturer. I poured the Moly lube/oil onto each of the cam lobes. Again, I turned the engine over with the starter. And again, I did it tentatively. I checked camshaft lobes and rocker arm pad for any issues. I re-lubed the cam lobes between attempts as I progressively increased the amount of time of engaging the starter. I did this until I finally got some oil to come out of the cam lobes. Even with a fully pre-lubed engine... which is left to sit for only a few minutes, my guess is that it takes something like 10 seconds of free spinning the engine (without spark plugs) via the starter (gear reduction one) for oil to come out of the cam! Next, I put the spark plugs in and fired the engine. It fired immediately, and I held RPMs at about 1200 for a minute, and then set the throttle linkage to hold about 2100 RPM for 20 minutes straight. I then shut it down and pulled the rocker cover. There is no damage. However, this thing with oil taking forever to get to the cam is not good. I'm not going to be able to preheat my oil every time I want to start this engine. So, looking back on this whole multi-year ordeal, why did I have this much trouble getting this engine fired without wrecking cams? I am not convinced that I am out of the forest yet. A thought comes to mind. I seem to recall that this cam is "rifle drilled". Could it be that there is more open volume inside this cam that takes longer to fill, and this is contributing to oil starvation during say, the first ten seconds of start up? Next, I'll be replacing the oil filter with a new one. And the very next time I start it, I'll be preheating the oil again, but I will drive the car at least 150 miles or so to try to get a bit of break in. Then, the 30 wt Brad Penn is coming out. I'll replace the filter again and put in Valvoline VR1 Racing 10W30. Going to be researching AccuSump... and looking at other options to get oil to the cam faster. G Edited January 25, 2015 by inline6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-E Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 .. pics no workie .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 .. pics no workie .. They look fine to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I have this oiling issue with my engine. At 800RPM, the oil pump will not prime, hot or cold. If it's already primed, it will build pressure, but otherwise it will not. First thing that happens on fire-up in my car is a quick rev over 2000RPM...this immediately primes the pump and oils the engine...if this is not done, then no oil pressure builds. I have two new pumps ready to go on, and will be doing it this week. This is only a recent development though, so I am not sure if it is any relation at all. I've never lost a cam lobe in any of my engines, but I always use Isky's break-in lube and Delta Cams reground rockers, pour the last quart of oil over the cam instead of just through the filler hole, and upon firing the engine immediately take it to 2000RPM for the break-in...no waiting, not even a second if I can help it. Once at 2KRPM, I tune the 2K load point to get it stoich for run-in. I also run a full six-quarts of oil *in* the mid-sump pan, and I pre-fill the oil filter and get it on the block as fast as possible to minimize spillage. Nothing real special or fancy in my break-ins, just outlining them to see if you notice anything you do differently that might be a clue. This is pretty puzzling that you've lost three in a row even with pre-lubing your cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leon Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Wow, nice job! Perhaps it was the valve springs all along? That jumps out at me the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I have this oiling issue with my engine. At 800RPM, the oil pump will not prime, hot or cold. If it's already primed, it will build pressure, but otherwise it will not. First thing that happens on fire-up in my car is a quick rev over 2000RPM...this immediately primes the pump and oils the engine...if this is not done, then no oil pressure builds. I have two new pumps ready to go on, and will be doing it this week. Given my past experiences, I am conflicted about jumping right to 2000 RPM. I understand that with spinning the engine faster, the pump primes faster. But, the faster lobe rotation without oil flowing for a few seconds (this is assumed, not measured) scares me. Given that the oil has to "follow the tortured path" inside the block, head, cam, etc., as my engine builder likes to call it, the unknown is just how long it takes to get oil to the cam under the different scenarios. Obviously, you are not seeing any priming at 800. Do you put oil in your pump before you install it? On the attempt before last, when I used the pressure kit, the engine fired on the first try. It coughed and stuttered for the first 5 seconds, but by second 6 or 7, revs reached north of 1500 and I started rolling the throttle to try to keep between 2000 and 2800 RPM (I have a video of this start up session). The rockers/cam had the most damage of any prior attempt that time around. For that session, I had not primed the oil pump. I had not put any oil inside it and it was dry, as it had been off the car during the engine tear down and inspection. I didn't learn the lessen that my dry oil pump wouldn't prime until after that attempt. After that attempt, I took the pump apart to check that everything was ok there. I put it back on the car dry. Using my fake aluminum shaft, I tried repeatedly to get oil to the cam and couldn't. Even with the drill at full speed for something like 10 seconds, I got no oil to the cam at all. When I pulled the pump off, it had no oil in it. I was only successful with the drill and fake shaft after I filled the pump with oil before re-installing. Wow, nice job! Perhaps it was the valve springs all along? That jumps out at me the most. It could very well be. I'm glad I found these new ones with help from Zredbaron. My engine builder liked them a lot more. He said they were much more consistent across the 12 as far as lb rate specs at important measured heights. And using an installed height micrometer I was able to juggle valve spring shims to get installed heights within .001" of the necessary installed height spec for each. Edited January 25, 2015 by inline6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Given my past experiences, I am conflicted about jumping right to 2000 RPM. I understand that with spinning the engine faster, the pump primes faster. But, the faster lobe rotation without oil flowing for a few seconds (this is assumed, not measured) scares me. Given that the oil has to "follow the tortured path" inside the block, head, cam, etc., as my engine builder likes to call it, the unknown is just how long it takes to get oil to the cam under the different scenarios. Obviously, you are not seeing any priming at 800. Do you put oil in your pump before you install it? This scenario happens every startup...engine has 20K on the clock. I believe the problem in my case is a worn pump...so I am replacing it before driving season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 This scenario happens every startup...engine has 20K on the clock. I believe the problem in my case is a worn pump...so I am replacing it before driving season. Ah... I see what you are saying. The pump is not dry... you are just turning off the engine, and the next time you start, you get it up to 2000 quickly rather than just start and idle. Ok... good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I Guess I have a hard time believing someone would install a dry oil pump. Not bashing at all , just wouldn't trust it . Glad you went to the shaft prime. Why straight to 2000 RPMS - for break in? Schnedier said this wasn't necessary for our cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I Guess I have a hard time believing someone would install a dry oil pump. Not bashing at all , just wouldn't trust it . Glad you went to the shaft prime. Why straight to 2000 RPMS - for break in? Schnedier said this wasn't necessary for our cams. I hadn't learned that I needed to install a pump that had been filled. I never had any issues before... and I have always installed them dry in the past. For the record, I've done 5 attempts: attempt one - new, nitrided cam, possibly a dry oil pump - my engine builder installed it. attempt two - polished journals on used nitrided cam, reground rockers. Oil pump did not come off - it was not dry attempt three - new cam, reground rockers, oil pump did not come off - it was not dry attempt four - reground new cam, reground rockers, possibly a dry oil pump - my engine builder installed it - pressure kit installed on oil temp sender before start up, most likely back-filled pump. attempt five - the most recent - pump was not dry My cam is a Sunbelt cam made with an Estas blank. It probably doesn't need break in either. I just wanted to run it at some RPMs that were high enough beyond "Idle speed" that psi would be up. Edited January 26, 2015 by inline6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I have a valve cover that i cut the top off of and plan on installing it when priming engine with pump shaft. Probably keep it on there for initial start too-hopefully won't make too much of a mess;) Hopefully you are done messing with this aspect of your build. Sounds like you should have a stout motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) I have a valve cover that i cut the top off of and plan on installing it when priming engine with pump shaft. Probably keep it on there for initial start too-hopefully won't make too much of a mess;) Hopefully you are done messing with this aspect of your build. Sounds like you should have a stout motor. I'd be interested in seeing a video of that. Probably becomes a mess once oil starts flowing out of the cam, but it would be interesting to see how long that takes... at like 40 degrees for example. Edited January 27, 2015 by inline6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo250gto Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hi, I have been reading you post with interest and mate, I feel for you. I think it was Tony D that speculated that the bottom end may be losing pressure causing the top ends lack of oil to the cam. Do you have the original press-in plugs fitted to the crankshaft oil passages or did you modify them to screw in plugs. With high oil pressure the original plugs can be pushed out. This could cause the top end to be suffering from low pressure. It would only take one. Just a thought. I have added a link to a short you-tube video that I had made of a modified valve cover with a clear Perspex cover for viewing my camshaft and oil spray-bar. It was a quick modification but worked good enough for me to see what was happening with oil on the cam without getting drowned in hot oil. Once I was happy I just refitted the original cover. Good luck with your engine. David. http://youtu.be/S7WPya5-P7Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Interesting set up! I can't really see anything spraying... it just looks like each lobe has a narrow band of oil on it at all times. Were you able to see how long it took from start until oil flowed from the journals? Could you verify that the spray bar was contributing anything at idle speed? Maybe I should do the same... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo250gto Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Hi, I had not fired up this engine for about 4 months. It took about 20 seconds from memory to start feeding oil to the cam. When I took the valve cover off to install the clear one I noticed that the cam still had a thin film of oil on it. The thin band of oil that you can see is the oil squirted from the spray bar at idle revs which has enough pressure to reach the cam. At higher revs it spays quite hard. When I am building an engine I preload the oil pump with STP added to the oil. I originally made the clear valve cover because I was worried about having blocked nozzles on the spray bar. It gave me piece of mind to see everything working as it should. Cheers David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'm starting to suspect that your cam core is too close in hardness to your rocker arms. that's the only thing left that I can see causing this kind of galling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Too many pages for me but maybe somebody could summarize the five setups. Rockers arms, cam brand and type (new or regrind), break-in oil, etc. The stuff that matters. They're not all the same type of rocker arms and cam are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inline6 Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Too many pages for me but maybe somebody could summarize the five setups. Rockers arms, cam brand and type (new or regrind), break-in oil, etc. The stuff that matters. They're not all the same type of rocker arms and cam are they? The detail for attempts 1 to 5 respectively: Attempt #1: Sunbelt cam - New - made from Estas cam blank which is a "chilled casting" and Nitrided OEM Nissan rocker arms - New - came in Nissan boxes - bought on eBay Mobil 1 full synthetic 10W-30 Attempt #2: Sunbelt cam - Used/Polished (same cam as attempt 1) - Still Nitrided OEM Nissan rocker arms - Reground by Delta Camshafts Mobil 1 full synthetic 10W-30 Attempt #3: Sunbelt cam - New - made from Estas cam blank which is a "chilled casting" - Not Nitrided OEM Nissan rocker arms - Reground by Delta Camshafts Redline synthetic 10W-30 Attempt #4: Reground by Cam Grinder who originally made the cam (same cam as attempt 3) - Not Nitrided OEM Nissan rocker arms - Reground by Delta Camshafts Redline synthetic 10W-30 Attempt #5: Reground by Cam Grinder who originally made the cam (same cam as attempt 3 and 4) - Not Nitrided OEM Nissan rocker arms - Reground by Delta Camshafts Brad Penn Racing - Break in Oil - 30 weight Edited January 31, 2015 by inline6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thanks for that. The one thing that pops right out is no zinc additive for the cam break-in. Is that correct? I've never used a zinc additive on my old already broken-in engines and never had a problem. But the need for zinc during the first few thousand (million?) revolutions of raw steel on raw steel seems to be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xnke Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Can you get the cam you have ground on a Nissan cam core? If you can, get one done on a Nissan cam and see if it fixes it. If it does, then the Estas core is is the problem...too close in hardness to the rocker arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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