Brake pad reviews

[RebekahsZ]

I'm trying to setup a collection point for THOUGHTFUL reviews/experiences with different models of brake pads. I am in the finishing stages of the 4-piston front and rear brake conversion from Arizona Z-Car and I hope to have better stopping ability than I had with my previous setup that was stock front 240z brakes with a Maxima rear disc conversion. I hope that anyone who posts on this thread will avoid overly general terms like "aggressive," "must-have," or "these brakes suck," etc. I hope that anyone posting will be very specific. Lets try to limit the discussion to PAD ONLY, not the conversion or what kind of calipers are being used. I really want us to talk about the friction material specifically and how it performed in certain high performance environments. My personal goal is to find an autocross pad that has slows the car in the shortest distance possible with the least tendency to lock the tires unexpectedly. I would think that means highest coefficient of friction at the lowest temperature, but maybe not... I would also like to find a pad that had huge initial bite and locks immediately cold (for my silly drifting caliper).

 

I realize that this thread might wind up in the tool bin.

 

See below for the most thoughtful brake pad review I have found, after some searching, on the internet and this forum (or really anywhere):

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/110643-280zx-rear-caliper-race-pad/?hl=%2Bbrake+%2Bpads&do=findComment&comment=1034634

[RebekahsZ]

First post.

 

Porterfield R4-S: better initial cold bite than Autozone brand pads. Bedded to rotor quickly. No unpleasant lock ups. VERY DUSTY, but worth it. No noise. No fade all day on road course with pro driver (Matt Isbell) at the wheel. Did not stop as well (had to brake much earlier) as another stock Z I got to drive at an autocross where I drove both cars. He had Hawks, but I don't know which model. Will edit post when I know which model of Hawks he had. In general, I was happy with the R4-S pad, but I wanted to stop better after driving the other Z-car at the autocross.

 

Hawk HPS: very poor autocross braking (increased braking distance over R4-S and Autozone cheapies). Would not bed after two autocrosses and a fair amount of drag racing and street driving. NO dust. No noise. Fine for daily driving, but I was not happy with my experience with this pad. Perhaps it is meant to be a low-dust pad at the expense of performance...

[Miles]

Surveys work best if people have a set list of criteria and structure  to respond to. Otherwise the survey will drift off course. 

 

 

For example:

 

Rate: 1 - 10        1 = worst    10 = excellent

 

1. Cold Bite:
2. Dusting:
3. Fade:
4. Stopping Peformance cold:
5. Stopping performance hot:
6. Street performance:
7. Etc.
8. Other Comments.

Members can copy your list of criteria into their response and fill in the information for each item in the list.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Miles

[1 tuff z]

Hawk HPS / HP+, i've run both on the street and at Watkins Glen International [WGI].  I'll assign them each a number, 1 is worst, 10 best as compared to generic street pads

        Generic / HPS / HP+

 

1. Cold Bite: 10 / 8 / 6 
2. Dusting: 10 / 7 / 2 [lots of dust] 
3. Fade:  1 [lots at temp] / 6 [at temp] / 10 [none]
4. Stopping performance [cold]: 10 / 8 / 6
5. Stopping performance [at temp]: 3 / 5 / 8
6. Pedal effort vs. brake force 10 / 8 / 6
7. Other Comments-threw in a set of generic pads for a 40 min session [my HP+ were gone and another guy gave me the generics] and went through them in the session.  Also tried HPS, gone in a day [4x40 min sessions] decent until they got really warm then started to go away.  HP+ are decent on the street but not optimum, don't take too long to warm up and exhibit zero fade.  They do blacken my wheels with dust and don't have as much bite as i'd like or brake force as I'd like.  Ran CHUMPCAR a few weeks ago and the Subie was stocked with some expensive Raybestos pads which were amazing - no warm up, great initial bite, minimal wear and not too much dust.  They didn't seem to beat up the rotors much either [sT-43 is the part number].

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by 1 tuff z

[Miles]

  Good format to  follow.  Kind of like Consumer reports.

 

 

Hawk HPS / HP+, i've run both on the street and at Watkins Glen International [WGI].  I'll assign them each a number, 1 is worst, 10 best as compared to generic street pads

        Generic / HPS / HP+

 

1. Cold Bite: 10 / 8 / 6 
2. Dusting: 10 / 7 / 2 [lots of dust] 
3. Fade:  1 [lots at temp] / 6 [at temp] / 10 [none]
4. Stopping performance [cold]: 10 / 8 / 6
5. Stopping performance [at temp]: 3 / 5 / 8
6. Pedal effort vs. brake force 10 / 8 / 6
7. Other Comments-threw in a set of generic pads for a 40 min session [my HP+ were gone and another guy gave me the generics] and went through them in the session.  Also tried HPS, gone in a day [4x40 min sessions] decent until they got really warm then started to go away.  HP+ are decent on the street but not optimum, don't take too long to warm up and exhibit zero fade.  They do blacken my wheels with dust and don't have as much bite as i'd like or brake force as I'd like.  Ran CHUMPCAR a few weeks ago and the Subie was stocked with some expensive Raybestos pads which worked great-no warm up, great initial bite, minimal wear and not too much dust.  They didn't seem to beat up the rotors much either [Keith, I can post the model if you'd like-need to get it from the guys]

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by Miles

[RebekahsZ]

Good idea-thanks Miles! I don't know that I am knowledgeable enough to put that list together on my own. Anybody want to help with the list of criteria? I'm just hoping for something beyond terms like "aggressive", "better performance over stock," "reduced fade at low to medium temperatures," etc that show up in the product descriptions in catalogs and web sites.

[Litman]

I just want to add to David's comment about the Raybestos ST43 pads on my Chump car.  We ran three races (Summit Point 10hr, Watkins Glen 15hr and Pittsburgh Intl 10hr) with the same set of ST43 pads on stock (Impreza RS) rotors.  There has been negligible wear to both the pads and the rotors.  Additionally very little dust considering how much we were abusing them.  Immediate bite.  No fade.  I find these pads to be truly amazing.  They are quite possibly the only part on the car that allows us to pass people.  When you only have 100whp you have to take people DEEP into corners to pass.  Like I said, we abused these pads and have all been extremely pleased with their performance.

[RebekahsZ]

How are they on the FIRST lap?

[johnc]

The first lap DOES NOT MATTER!

 

You guys are losing your minds on the detail.

 

In the Autocross/Road Racing forum there's a huge Track Pads sticky on my350z.com. The relative performance between the pads is applicable to the S30.

[johnc]

http://my350z.com/forum/autocross-road/214117-track-pads-database.html

[NewZed]

Raybestos ST43 looks expensive, for Z's -

 

http://www.topbrakes.com/c/car-series/16541/Racing+Brake+Pads/RAYBESTOS/Raybestos+Custom+ST43/1976+NISSAN+280Z+

[beermanpete]

Raybestos ST43 looks expensive, for Z's -

 

http://www.topbrakes.com/c/car-series/16541/Racing+Brake+Pads/RAYBESTOS/Raybestos+Custom+ST43/1976+NISSAN+280Z+

Yes, they are expensive compared to Hawk or Porterfield but they hold up to temps that melt the Porterfield pads and they don't wear quickly. For me it is worth the extra cost to get brakes that last through a time trial event without going away.

[RebekahsZ]

Johnc-that link is awesome. My question about first lap was intended to find out how well they work cold (I'm going to have two sets of pads-one for high friction at low temp for street/drag/autocross), and one for track days (high temp). When i asked that question I was thinking of autocross when there can be an hour between 1minute runs and stuff cools off. I will go thru that link from top to bottom several times before I inquire further. That author's impression of the Hawk HPS matches mine to the letter.

[RebekahsZ]

After studying johnc's link, I spent some time reading a couple of manufacturer's pad dyno charts (mostly on the Wilwood site). I have never before understood the real difference between a "street pad" and a "race pad."

 

Street pad-install and forget about it 'till your mechanic says they need changing and annoy as few customers as possible. Minimum noise (this seems to be the biggest issue that folks complain about), minimum dust, minimum pad and rotor wear so they last a long time. Low coefficient of friction with adequate stopping in traffic and single panic stops on the highway, but poor enough stopping to keep ABS from activating all the time.

 

Race pad-max performance and the hell with the rest. Requires frequent replacement of rotors and pads as needed, sometimes during a single event. Max performance at the cost of lots of noise and dust (sometimes molten metal sticking to wheels). High enough coefficient of friction to be able to get max use out of big, sticky race tires. Resistant to high temp fade due to repetitive high-speed braking.

 

Looking at the dynos, it seems that most of the race pads have higher low temp Cfs than the street pads. I was under the impression that street pads would have higher "cold bite" after hearing folks talk about how race pads have to get warmed up to work well. Looks like I was wrong.

 

I'm hardly driving my car on the street any more, so noise and dust is less of an issue. But, I don't run the car at sustained high braking temps but once or twice a year. So, for me, it looks like the real issue is heat range, because heat cycles seem to have a negative effect on rotor wear. There seems to be some discussion of whether running a race pad on a cold rotor causes more rotor wear than keeping the heat high and constant. So, perhaps that thought process would justify using a street pad.

 

The BP-10s that Dave sold me seem to be the weakest compound that Wilwood makes-it is a true steet pad with their lowest Cf, along with the lowest heat rating and emphasis on being quiet. I DON'T want to repeat my mistake with the Hawk HPS. I am going to call him and see if he can swap them for some Poly Ds, which have the highest cold Cf in the street category. I would use this as my street, drag race and autocross pad. At the autocrosses this year, I plan to pay attention to rotor heat using a laser pyrometer to see ifit would be adviseable to go to a race pad (I was getting so out-braked last month). Will order a set of Poly-As for the drifting calipers since I want the highest cold Cf possible for that on-off switch that I rarely use. Will look at a set of Raybestos-43s (vs) the Wilwood Poly H for my annual track day(s) at A.M.P. May later try running these pads for all activities.

 

Thoughts/recommendations?

Edited November 12, 2013 by RebekahsZ

[RebekahsZ]

Ran Raybestos ST-43 pads all the way around on my 4-pot kit from AZC at the track day at AMP.  Bought them thru Porterfield over the phone.  6 sessions of 20 minutes.  Yes, they sing.  Yes, they need a lap to get hot-don't pile into a corner as hard as possible on the first lap or you will find yourself in the gravel.  Very little wear and very little dust, rotors look great.  The car stops and had no trouble locking the Hoosier R6 275s if I hit the brakes too abruptly.  Had to further reduce rear bias on first track session and then again part way thru the day.  I have to learn not to punch the brake pedal and press it progressively.  Having come from stock brakes, I was way over-braking-its like I've never driven a car before.  They never faded and hauled the car down over and over.  I'm happy. 

[gacksen]

have the same setup as the OP on my car. currently some race type pads are on it. cold terrible to drive you need to warm them up and not

my cup of tea. already ordered new EBC yellow stuff pads for the front and rears to come in. have them on all of my high HP english cars

and they work fine with a good bite. would rate them a little bit below race pads. currently waiting for a set uf speed bleeders and once

arrived pads will go in with 5.1 brake fluid.

[m1ghtymaxXx]

I have Hawk HP+ and can't really complain about performance. My biggest issue is mainly because of my Wilwood 1" master cylinder combined with stock caliper and drum brakes. The pedal is quite firm with little movement making it very difficult to modulate the brakes at the threshold with higher friction pads, particularly with autocross slicks. Now that I've swapped to to BFG Rivals I don't find it so bad, but I've also had 2 years now to learn. My biggest complaint (keeping in mind that it's a street & autocross car) is the sound. If there's a pad with similar friction and heat resistance properties but less noise and dust I would be all over it if it doesn't brake the bank. 

[RebekahsZ]

Daily driving this week with the ST-43s. I get a LOT of attention rolling to a stop at an intersection. It's more of a high whistle than a screeeech. Makes me feel like a tough guy racer dude.

[1 tuff z]

Keith, I drove a Subaru Impreza in a ChumpCar event last fall and a quick stint on some back roads in [Horseheads] NY near Watkins Glen.  The ST-43's they had on the Subie felt great, nice initial grab, pretty easy to modulate, minimal rotor wear, little brake dust on wheels & no noise I detected [although they did have a fairly loud exhaust on it].

 

How do the ST-43's work on the street?  Did you feel the need to follow other cars at a greater distance [when pads are cold]?

 

I'm thinking about moving from the HP+ to the ST-43 pads on my Z.  I run the HP+ all the time [mostly because I'm lazy...] and would like to be able to do the same with the ST-43's.

[RebekahsZ]

Noisy at track, noisy on the street. If you don't like folks looking at you when you roll up to them at a stop light, you should avoid the ST-43s. So far as street performance-they are great. Remember I've only had them for a week and they got one run to bed them and (6) 20 minute track sessions and then daily driving for three days. So my experience is somewhat brief. They are fine at stopping when cold at traffic speeds, but I wouldn't expect to be able to threshold brake as deep (late) into a turn when they are cold as they did hot. (I ran off the track once because of that). They seemed to get better and better the hotter they got. And the AZC kit really sheds heat well, especially the fronts. Brake ducting just moved way down my to-do list. Now that I have brakes that work, I have to learn to drive. I used to be able to be pretty sloppy with my feet. I used to not notice if I put a little pressure on the brake pedal with my toe when toe-heeling or toe-siding the gas for a blip into a lower gear, but now, I really upset the car. I think im going to limit left foot braking to autocross, too-i got my feet mixed up once and luckily i had entered the corner plenty slow enough that it wasnt a problem, but i sure got my instructor's attention. Entering slow seems to be a pretty good policy for this novice. Expect a new thread to discuss best (I know there's no best) positioning of the seat, steering wheel, and pedals (and maybe heel rests) in the future. My feet were a mess at the track, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that something happens now when I push the middle pedal down.