High horsepower L28 turbo questions

[Tony D]

DOHC Four-Valve engines are NOT "New Technology"! Not by a LONGSHOT!

 

The reason people in AMERICA don't pursue 700HP L-Builds can be more properly summed up in two adjectives and a conjunction:

 

 

"Ignorance & Sloth"

[Chris83zxt]

I think rebekahz made it almost into the 10's with a stock ls2 which is 400hp 400tq rating from the factory. The Z chassis is light I think it's the same weight as a miata with a passenger. You don't need 700hp to break into the 10's.

 

No I think 400-450whp in a Z will get you into the 10's as long as you're hooking.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Chris83zxt

[calvin280zxt]

Iv been to japan im so much smarter than anyone

[ctc]

Iv been to japan im so much smarter than anyone

And if you worked/hung out at car shows, auto shops and junkyards there you most likely are smarter.

 

What do you have to add to the thread smart guy..... crickets chirping in background.

 

What people on this site, especially those who are new to Z cars, fail to realize is the these engines were the small block chevy of japan to use a crude analogy.

 

There is very little that hasn't been done too or with L series engines in Japan or other parts of the world. It truly is sloth, language or some other impediment that keeps people from realizing this.

Edited May 6, 2014 by ctc

[Six_Shooter]

Many of us realize that a lot has been and can be done with L-series engines, but there is also the fact that there are cheaper ways and ways that require less work to achieve our power goals.

If one of the criteria to our build is not "to keep an L-series engine between the front strut towers", then the obvious choice is to use something newer, that has been developed to be more efficient.

 

Call it "sloth", call it "ignorance" if you want, I call it being efficient with time and money.

Personally I'd rather spend my time behind the wheel, and my money on the dead dinosaurs going into the tank under the hatch floor.

 

The only way I'd keep an L-series between my strut towers would be if I had a cross flow head of whatever design (I.E. OS Giken, or an RB head swap) fall into my lap along with many maintenance parts, but at that point the only thing that would still be L-series would be the block and crank ... I can also think of much better ways to spend $40K+ than on a single head... For $40K I could have my car running 9's in the 1320, drive circles around people on a road course and win (custom) car shows.

 

That being said, the L-series has remained between my strut towers for about 4 years longer than I had planned, simply because it works and is reliable. I have even bought a couple parts recently to do some thing that people say is "pointless" and maybe even "impossible" to do with an L-series, simply to experiment, if I even go through with those plans.

[TimZ]

Iv been to japan im so much smarter than anyone

An I Spel reel gud.

[Tony D]

Iv been to japan im so much smarter than anyone

Why do I find this unbelievable?

Kamloops, maybe... Japan? I doubt it.

 

It's a nice place to visit now, but I loved living there for five years.

 

Ignorance of North Americans notwithstanding.

[Tony D]

I find it absolutely hilarious how people in North America speak as an authoritative source on why the L-Series is this or that, and have the arrogant attitude that "If it didn't happen in 'Murrica (Canada apparently as well...) then no lil yallar fella coulda come up with nuthin' worth speak in' bout!"

 

I mean, talk about boorish and xenophobic.

 

It's actually quite offensive to me, in particular, since I still travel to Japan regularly and have many close friends in the automotive high-performance arena there.

 

I mean people are speaking as to why it's so hard to do this as of it's some mystical number and sooooo few, far between, rare. It's simply a matter of lack of exposure, ignorance of history, and of other arenas of opportunity or endeavour. If it upsets you that your ignorance is exposed when you speak about it, a reasonable proposition would be not to speak of it so as not to be corrected.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Tony D

[roger280zx]

I'm pretty sure an Lgata went 9's NATURALLY ASSPIRATED in japan, in an s13.  Hmmm, swapping an older engine into a newer chassis to go fast cheaply... sounds like the Japanese small block to me.

[calvin280zxt]

And if you worked/hung out at car shows, auto shops and junkyards there you most likely are smarter.

What do you have to add to the thread smart guy..... crickets chirping in background.

What people on this site, especially those who are new to Z cars, fail to realize is the these engines were the small block chevy of japan to use a crude analogy.

There is very little that hasn't been done too or with L series engines in Japan or other parts of the world. It truly is sloth, language or some other impediment that keeps people from realizing this.

nothing against you

Why do I find this unbelievable?

Kamloops, maybe... Japan? I doubt it.

It's a nice place to visit now, but I loved living there for five years.

Ignorance of North Americans notwithstanding.

I find it absolutely hilarious how people in North America speak as an authoritative source on why the L-Series is this or that, and have the arrogant attitude that "If it didn't happen in 'Murrica (Canada apparently as well...) then no lil yallar fella coulda come up with nuthin' worth speak in' bout!"

I mean, talk about boorish and xenophobic.

It's actually quite offensive to me, in particular, since I still travel to Japan regularly and have many close friends in the automotive high-performance arena there.

I mean people are speaking as to why it's so hard to do this as of it's some mystical number and sooooo few, far between, rare. It's simply a matter of lack of exposure, ignorance of history, and of other arenas of opportunity or endeavour. If it upsets you that your ignorance is exposed when you speak about it, a reasonable proposition would be not to speak of it so as not to be corrected.

you just proved my joke 5 times over

[Six_Shooter]

I find it absolutely hilarious how people in North America speak as an authoritative source on why the L-Series is this or that, and have the arrogant attitude that "If it didn't happen in 'Murrica (Canada apparently as well...) then no lil yallar fella coulda come up with nuthin' worth speak in' bout!"

 

I mean, talk about boorish and xenophobic.

 

It's actually quite offensive to me, in particular, since I still travel to Japan regularly and have many close friends in the automotive high-performance arena there.

 

I mean people are speaking as to why it's so hard to do this as of it's some mystical number and sooooo few, far between, rare. It's simply a matter of lack of exposure, ignorance of history, and of other arenas of opportunity or endeavour. If it upsets you that your ignorance is exposed when you speak about it, a reasonable proposition would be not to speak of it so as not to be corrected.

 

If someone's choice to use an engine other than an L-series in their car for their own reasons is offensive to you, then you have some serious issues.

 

For the amount of money it takes to build an L-series to the power levels I want to build my engine of choice to, I could build at least two of non L-series engine. FWIW, the engine I will be building is an orphan, and not generally considered for performance applications, so not all of us are taking the "easy way", but a different way. An engine that is 30 years newer will have maintenance parts available at the parts store, usually in stock, if not only a few hours away. Every time I have needed a gasket or part for my L-series, other than belts, or spark plugs has been days away, and usually only through the local Nissan dealer (where the parts manager is also a Z-car owner and enthusiast). I daily drive my 240, and I plan to keep it that way, so waiting for parts is a show stopper and not a position I want to put myself in. This is also the reason why I'm very selective of what aftermarket parts I actually use. Most wear items I use are not aftermarket, such as brakes, I use OEM from some vehicle that will give me the performance I desire with the serviceability I need.

 

It's about the dollars and sense.

 

Also why not, instead of stating over and over again in your own cryptic way that "Hey In Japan they do things differently and it works", why not show some examples, with some details about how they achieved what they did, so that people that might want to go that route will have some direction.

 

On that note a sticker I have comes to mind, that pretty much explains how I will be building MY car:

 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Six_Shooter

[Tony D]

You're really twisting what I said to make a statement about nothing I ever said.

 

What is at issue is not the CHOICE to use "something different"!

 

It is the ignorant mischaracterisations of the difficulty of doing it on the L-Gata.

 

It's just plain bad information, borne of ignorance. Characterising "nobody building 700 HP L-Engine" as a reason...flies DIRECTLY in the face of the fact that in reality MANY of these builds indeed exist.

 

My problem is the ignorant statement that "nobody" does it (the reasons that follow are simply moot as people DO build them!)

 

Discounting the entire nation of Japan just seems, well, to use the word again: ignorant.

 

It's not about what they choose. It's about bad information.

 

I don't care if they want to go Borgward Power because they had uncle Fritz who's foot was run over by one in the 60's, and they always hated that bastard uncle Fritz. Any reason to chose any drivetrain needn't ever be justified.

 

Lying about the facts because you are ignorant of the builds that do exist, and countless that have existed in the past---THAT is offensive.

 

Does that clarify it better for you? You got my objection to the statements wrong. The offence was taken at the mis-statements, not the choice to go with something else.

 

If you are going to rationalise something, at least be intellectually honest about it and not rely on misrepresentation of the facts in dispute!

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tony D

[Tony D]

As for "showing how" you can read the archives, same as everybody else. Many of the builds are chronicled in pulp...and if YOU want to waste YOUR time scanning page upon page of archival material in order to cast pearls before swine....have at it man! I don't have the time for that, but if you do more power to ya! Maybe when I retire and have all the time in the world and. Need to fill my days with "things that keep me busy"...

 

Any good engineer chuckles when somebody comes up with a "new way to make power. On a 40 year old design, as chances are...it isn't new at all!

[Tony D]

This seems to have digressed from the stated purpose of the OP as people just can't explain the following:

 

"I'm not trying to start a "why do you need that much" or "I don't think it can be done" battle.

 

What I'm really asking is why have very few people done this? Are there limitations to the block that simply cannot be overcome? Does the head crack at this much cylinder pressure? Or maybe the reason very few people have done this is simply because the L6 croud is more into N/A setups."

 

Facts are that a few people in North America have done it, but it's fairly common in Japan. None of the structural concerns he mentions exist. This comes down to builder's skill, or lack thereof.

 

Tim touched on the reasons, and I simply distilled it to it's essence. To make a 700HP L-Engine, it will not be your casual shade tree goober. You need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

 

This simply is not the case in countries with universal access to drivers licenses, cheap cars, and no technical instruction system set up.

 

In most countries, people doing high performance builds are restricted to those with the skills and the means, not every joe blow with a Sears tool kit who hangs out a single as a "high performance shop." I can show you guys who will insist a Nissan L-Turbo will NOT, under ANY circumstances, hold up beyond 15 psi of boost. They would point to the pile of detonated to death L28ET's out on the scrap pile as proof of their scientific hypothesis. L-Gata Law to them!

 

Uh...yeeeeah!

 

It's just not a platform performance shops will deal with these days. So those trying, may not necessarily possess the skills requisite to accomplish it (as Tim Z says, opposed to a build to only 350HP as a counter example.)

 

I think I distilled it irritatingly succinctly. As is my function. I stand by the reasons as a direct response to the OP's question as stated above, and not anybody else's twisting of my words to suit their situation or take offence.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tony D

[TimZ]

Well said, Tony

 

I think I distilled it irritatingly succinctly. As is my function.

LOL - I wouldn't know what to do if it were any other way.

 

Also, I keep hearing the "it's just so much cheaper" arguments and somehow I don't find them very convincing.  In some ways, yes - you can't buy a "700hp stage 7" kit that you can just bolt on, and it _is_ hard to find builders that know what they are doing on the L-series and when you do they aren't cheap.  I'm not sure you can just buy a "700hp kit" for the RB or an LS motor either for that matter, and if you can they are still pretty pricey - easily as much as that expensive L-series build everybody is afraid of.  "But I could do it myself much cheaper!"  Yes you can.  On either choice.  Just don't expect any choice to be cheap - you will be dissappointed. 

 

Also, a great deal of the expense in building 700hp Z by any means is the supporting systems that need to be put in place, regardless of the choice of engine - suspension, brakes, chassis stiffening and reinforcement, and fuel delivery to name just a few things that become much more crucial at this level or higher.  If you aren't taking that into consideration you are kidding yourself.

 

Some people just want to have a fast car, others enjoy the journey as much as the end result.  

Edited May 8, 2014 by TimZ

[McDoogle]

Im not the wisest but a 700whp in a "period correct stock z body" is not going to last long.  The z is going to rip in half.  And if you want to make that much horsepower would it be best to do a stroker build?

[McDoogle]

this would be you 

[SleeperZ]

Im not the wisest but a 700whp in a "period correct stock z body" is not going to last long.  The z is going to rip in half.  And if you want to make that much horsepower would it be best to do a stroker build?

 

Period-correct was never defined.  The OP stated it meant a 6 cylinder engine, and for some reason the RB and 2JZ did not qualify but obviously would be easier to build to 600-700 hp.  The goal for the car was drag racing* , so it would have to have a full cage to run 9s.

 

* Road racing was also mentioned, but the compromises in building a 9 second Z involve reducing capability on a road course, so it was not a serious consideration.

[TimZ]

Im not the wisest but a 700whp in a "period correct stock z body" is not going to last long.  The z is going to rip in half.  And if you want to make that much horsepower would it be best to do a stroker build?

Oh, for ****'s sake...

[Rob L]

I do want to do it the way they do it in Japan.....now if somebody can find out what this guy has under the hood(blue Z) i could get started!!!

 

"Warning you probably have seen this video before and it has nothing to do with turbo L6s"....i just never get sick of it!!

 

 

Edited June 11, 2015 by theatriks