BMW V12 in a 240Z.. can it be done?

[Guest Anonymous]

I want to put a BMW V12 (5-liter) into a 240/260Z, because I want a 250 GTO replica that's got a V12 in it. The Jaguar V12 is the other option, but they're a bit nasty compared to the technical development of a 1990s V12 BMW, compared to a 1970s V12 Jaguar.

 

Can it be done? I don't want to have to hack out the firewall or anything. If you can do a Jag 12 into a 240Z, surely you can do a BMW V12? They're all-alloy too, and are nice and light. Probably as heavy as the L24/26!

 

Apparently the BMW V12 is a little shorter and a little taller than most small block Chevy's. The biggest thing I'm worried about is not being able to close the bonnet, because the engines are quite tall.. so it might interfere with the front of the bonnet? i.e at the front of the car.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Chris

[Scottie-GNZ]

They're all-alloy too, and are nice and light. Probably as heavy as the L24/26!

Have you actually weighed one? You might be surprised, so find out for sure.

[Boobala]

I couldn't find a weight on the engine but it sure looks plenty tall.

 

 

Here's a bit of text concerning the demensions of the engine:

 

At the widest point which is at the two distributor caps and as mesured with out wires in the caps it is 20.75 wide. It is 29.25 long id you cut off the viscus fan clutch. At the oil pan it is 16.5 and it is 26 high mesured at the top of the air plenums. As far as the trans look at the pictures on Lambolounge of the CCD car they mated it to an Audi 5000. I am still vasilating on a trans. I looked at the Renault shown on Lamborghinireplica.com but it looks too small to handle the power. The reason this trans looked desirable was the bell housing is removable and would make it easy to adapt. The problem with the Audi is the bell housing is small in diameter and the BMW flywheel is 13" in diameter so the to retain the BMW starter and ring gear the trans must be steped out passed the flywheel before you get to the adapter plate. This steped out the trans 2" on the CCD version and placed the axels at a acute angle.

[Boobala]

Another possibility is the GM Northstar XV12 (if it ever makes it to production)

 

 

is a 60-degree, all-aluminum dual overhead cam (DOHC) four-valve engine. It displaces 7.5 liters and produces 750 horsepower (560 kW) and 450 lb-ft of torque (610 Nm), yet is packaged in the size of a V8, and able to deliver excellent fuel economy. The engine has integrated advanced technologies for the future developed by GM Powertrain's Advanced Engineering, and assembled in a compact package that GM engineers refer to as "small on the outside, big on the inside."

 

The Northstar XV12 represents a unique combination of a nod to the past and a glimpse of the future.

 

"The Northstar XV12 provides a realistic look at what could power an assault on the high-end, premium automotive segment," said Fritz Indra, GM Powertrain executive director of advanced engineering. "At the same time it showcases a wealth of new technologies under development at GM Powertrain, many of which will eventually find their way into GM engines of all shapes and sizes."

 

The Northstar XV12 is the same length as GM's Vortec 8100 V8, and it has the approximate width and height as the Northstar 4.6-liter and Vortec 6000 V8s.

 

"The packaging was probably the biggest challenge we faced, because from the outset we wanted to fit the V12 inside the package of a V8," said Steve Kowalk, GM Powertrain project manager for the Northstar XV12. "We focused on keeping the size down to fit as many different types of vehicles as possible, while maximizing displacement, and then using Displacement on Demand to deliver the required power at all times. We also minimized cylinder bore wall thickness to 7 millimeters and used a rear cam drive to create a more compact package and enable a lower hoodline."

 

GM's Displacement on Demand enables the V12 engine to run seamlessly on six cylinders at times to maximize fuel savings, and is only one of several technological advancements showcased on the Northstar XV12. Some of the high-tech features included in Northstar XV12's capabilities: Displacement on Demand

 

The cylinder shutdown is enabled through valve deactivation, which is performed by a compact switchable tappet. Cylinder de-activation occurs on the right-hand bank only, which allows the engine to run as a perfectly balanced inline 6-cylinder. The system deactivation and reactivation has a quick response time and the oil system and solenoid layout allows valve switching capability at up to 6000 rpm.

 

In May 2001, GM announced that it will implement Displacement on Demand in its trucks and SUVs beginning in 2004.

[blueovalz]

It's not whether it can be done, but instead, will you do it. I'm sure the first person that ever put a V8 in a Z asked someone "can this be done?". I for one would love to see this done. With some imagination, practical engineering skills, and mostly desire, you can do this. I'm sure there are many among us that will give you a plethora of advice and tips.

[R0N]

I have an early 750IL and I don't think it will fit or it will be really close. It's because of the intake manifold sticks out to far. It doesn't look like the engine Boobala pictured, that's a newer 750IL engine.

 

I don't think it's going to fit because it fills up my engine bay. I can't reach the spark plugs by hand. They probably swap the plugs from the bottom of the car.

 

If you get it in then you'll have fun with it. I've taken my 750IL(E32) to 150mph and walked a 93 vette going over 100mph. The compression is only 8:5:1 so you can put a turbo on them. Dinan made a twin turbo system for it.

 

The older Jag v12's are junk and power is very weak in stock form.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies, guys..

 

Scottie: No, I haven't weighed one.. but apparently they weigh less than the old cast inline-six engine?!

 

Boobala: Yeah, I'm a bit worried about the bonnet not closing.. particularly at the front of the car the XV12 might be a bit out of my price range! And it will probably never make it to this country..

 

blueovalz: Sure, anything can be done, it's just a question of time and money. But.. if I need to relocate the firewall, or lengthen the car's wheelbase, or any other structural mods.. then I wouldn't bother. I just want to know if it's reasonably "easy" to do, or if will require _serious_ re-engineering of the entire car..

 

R0N: It's hard to tell, because I don't even have a car to fit one into! I'll try and see if I can measure one, and then y'all can debate about the dimensions.. hopefully it's not much bigger than a SB Chev, but I think it might be a lot taller. I think it's only a sixty-degree Vee angle?

[Scottie-GNZ]

Big Chris,

 

if the engine you are considering is the one that Boobala has pictured, I see 2 possible problems.

 

1. Possible interference with that cast oil pan and the front cross-member

2. It is a tall engine and the more forward it is in the enginebay, the worse #1 will be, engine-front/radiator/fan clearance is worse and you will certainly have to mod the hood towards the front. That mod would probably be like a cowl-induction hood but starting further forward and quite possibly wider.

 

Good luck, but research it thoroughly before taking it on. Nothing like starting a project and discovering it is a lot harder that you anticipated.

[Z-TARD]

I had planned on putting a Jag V-12 into my Z, but after measuring everything out several times discovered that it was too tall to fit because of its 60 degree layout. The BMW engine in the picture looks like it may have the same problem. Also try to find a definitive figure on engine weight, the Jag V-12 is also mostly alloy and comes in at over 600 pounds....I can measure my engine bay and post the dimensions on monday if it will help. Good luck on your swap.

[KiD-ViD]

that picture of the "GM Northstar XV12" looks like a v10 to me...I only count 5 header flanges

[Bob_H]

Look at the intake, 6 runners on each side. The 6th exhaust pipe is hidden behind, runs from the back of the motor. It is 3 into 1 twice on each side.

But I agree, looks are deceiving.

-Bob

[KiD-ViD]

oh ok I see now...wow I had to get like 2 inches away from my monitor to see that. I forgot about the intake runners at first.

[Guest KraZ4spd]

what about a turbo or super charged older Jag V-12? If one was rubuilt to handle it, what would you guts think?

[fl327]

do it.

[R0N]

Here's the engine (88-94) Big Chris talking about. Sorry my motor is dirty. As you can see the engine bay is filled. The manifold is only 2 - 3" away for the strut tower wall. Close fit if it fits.

 

 

 

Here's my car - it's old but it still looks decent.

[ZROSSA]

Big Chris,

 

Toyota make a 5lt v12 as well. It might be hard to find though. Its in one of there domestic market limo's called a century. Still I think it would be cheeper tham a bmw in our end of the world.

 

Douglas

[staledale]

http://www.classicjaguar.com/jctl701.jpg

[katman]

I think the Jag has steel or cast iron liners for the bores, and ends up being a pretty heavy mill. The BMW is nikasil treated all aluminum block so it's substantially lighter. The width is an issue in both cases. For the Jag with stock induction arrangement where the intakes go outboard overtop the valve covers it won't fit. You have to make something else or go vertical like the picture in the previous post's link. BMW probably same way. The Jag's been done so I imagine the bimmer could be done too. All it takes is money, time, and a torch. Do it, it'd be an 11 on the "cool" meter.

[Guest Anonymous]

ok, a bmw v12 shouldn't be too hard to find, and it shouldn't be too expensive. i worked in a mercedes/bmw shop and those 750's are really fast. and 750's aren't light cars. also it's hard to kill a bmw v12. i know the maintainence is much lower on a bmw engine than any jag engine. also much more go fast parts for a beemer than a jag. i would definately say go with the bmw, maybe make a custom dry sump oil pan to lower it. i know some guys that have been working on bmw's for a while, they might be willing to give you some info on them.

 

Matt

[prelewd]

also it's hard to kill a bmw v12. i know the maintainence is much lower on a bmw engine than any jag engine.

 

My uncle blew one up in his 850i. He also outran the cops in it, so that might say something about the speed. CHP showed up at his door the next morning though. That's just the kind of guy he was.

 

As far as maintenance to the Jag V12s.. I will agree that the BMW probably requires less. My pop has two XJ-S Jags, and the Fuel Injection is always finicky.