rossman Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 My experience with POR 15 has not been good and I tend to put rust bullet in the same category. Without going too much off topic, I will say that the PO of my car told me that he had treated the floor and hatch with POR 15 rust encapsulator. I purchased the car back in 2008 and he treated it some time before that. By the time I got around to fixing the rust issues on the floor of the car, I found that the POR 15 came off easily and there was rust still spreading underneath. Judging by the poor workmanship everywhere else the guy touched the car I presume that he simply painted over the existing rust and the result was that the rust continued to spread, hidden under a thin shell of "rust encapsulator." In my opinion, these products are all about the marketing and much less about actual rust prevention. Anyway, I just thought I'd share my experience and opinion FWIW. I love the build!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 My feeling with Iron Head's application needs is he could have used almost any product touted as "rust encapsulating" and be fine, it's a clean build! People read "can apply direct to rust" and think no prep is involved like removing as much rust as possible before application. Sounds like PO of rossman's car just slapped POR 15 over flaky rust thinking it would penetrate to solid metal, no bueno. For those interested I have been looking into paint products and seriously considering Tamco Paint for all coating needs this time around. Relevant to this conversation they have "Direct to Rust Primer" which I think would also work well to brush into seams and welds to treat rust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 I'm just passing on my experience and opinion. Take it FWIW. I prefer to use ospho first then epoxy paint. YMMV 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted August 30, 2020 Author Share Posted August 30, 2020 Thanks for the input dudes, I sincerely appreciate it. I too am dubious of some of the claims of these sorts of products, but keep in mind I am by no means "pushing the envelope" in terms of what they claim to do. AFAIK, I have no rust. I am just forcing this product into seams where it is impossible to be sure. I live in a very dry climate, but my car has been "in progress" with a lot of bare metal for three years. The only surface rust that really appeared during that time is a little bit on the right rear quarter (because that is near where I drain the water from my compressor), and a little bit on the dash bar underneath the clamps I fabbed to mount my dash. All the visible rust will be wire brushed off before epoxy. I am only using Rust Bullet in places where I cannot see, in the crack formed by pinch/lap welds. It is purely a precaution, since even if I could detect rust in those joints, there is no mechanical way to remove it short of dismantling the shell. I would have to chemically neutralize it with some product or another anyway... So my choices are to do nothing with Rust Bullet, seal the seams, and paint the car. I am 98% sure I would be fine with that plan. Or I could brush in epoxy, which has no claimed rust countering ability. That would be fine as long as no surface rust cropped up in the seams in the past three years after I stitch welded the shell. I have given this a lot of thought, and I think I am covering my bases about as well as is possible to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted September 3, 2020 Author Share Posted September 3, 2020 I've been working on prepping the body shell for epoxy primer/seam sealer/paint. Basically the regimen has been needle gun/hammer & chisel to remove weld spatter, assortment of wire brushes in an angle grinder to remove other weld...crap....followed by maroon Scotchbrite to remove burned epoxy (from welding) and to scuff the epoxy coat that was put on three years ago. Literally every square inch needs to be scuffed, there are a lot of nooks/crannies, as you can imagine. To keep from going crazy, I set small goals for the day, and once they are done I stop, even if I feel like I could do more. Today I did the firewall and inner driver's side fender. But, yeah, the job is a freakin PITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelsonian Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Love to see the progress!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 10, 2020 Author Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Been scrambling the past few weeks trying to get the shell painted before the weather turns cold.... Started by masking off exterior areas that are going to be done in base/clear: Then sprayed gray epoxy over everything and started working on seam sealing. I sealed pretty much everything, while making sure to keep drain/vent holes open so that if water does find its way in, it can drain/evaporate. If anyone is looking for a seam sealer, I messed with a few of the 2K products and settled on SEM 39777. It is flowable, and can be brushed into tight areas, but is not so liquid that it wants to run everywhere. And being a 2K product, once it cures in about 15 minutes, it is impervious to just about everything. The only thing it is not good for is filling larger gaps, for that I used 3M 08308. After that, a coat of white epoxy (changed colors to help with coverage, and because single stage green will go right on top). I painted all this in one day to stay within all the re-coat windows. It doesn't look like that big of a job, but my ass was kicked when I was done and I think I had epoxy coming out of my ass... Next step was single stage green (Delfleet DSS) which in the photos has already been masked for the application of Lizard Skin and Raptor Liner. The masking needs to be exhaustive, because these products are thick enough to completely fill in small threaded holes and such, so they ALL had to be masked. PITA. Next, Lizard Skin sound deadener (two coats) was sprayed in pretty much all of the interior, followed by two coats of Lizard Skin temp control on the firewall and trans tunnel. Neither of these products are particularly durable, so everything was covered with a thick coat of Raptor Liner. I also did the door bars with Raptor Liner since they will constantly be getting climbed over, and I wasn't sure how long straight paint would last. I also sprayed Raptor Liner in the fender wells, and on the bottom of the floor pans. This is where everything stands now. The remaining "gray" areas will be painted in base/clear, after another buttload of masking. Confident I will finish though, before weather turns too cold... Thanks for looking. Edited October 10, 2020 by Ironhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Wow, attention to detail amazing as usual! Thanks for the heads up on seam sealers. 2K products are the way to go for two reasons, quick cure and no shrinkage. The single stage gave a nice glossy finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 11, 2020 Author Share Posted October 11, 2020 2 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said: The single stage gave a nice glossy finish. It does where I did my part, but all the weird angles painting the cage and what not left me with overspray/rough spots in places. I honestly don't know how that could be completely avoided, so I am just moving forward and not worrying about it. Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Shooting from the hip here but maybe reducing the paint could help. Then there is the battle of the runs to deal with. Often pondered how people paint the interior with roll cages installed, getting adequate coverage in all the blind spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 (edited) On 10/11/2020 at 11:48 AM, 280Z-LS3 said: Often pondered how people paint the interior with roll cages installed, getting adequate coverage in all the blind spots. Some places are simply impossible. Like the top of the cage where it sits 1/16" from the roof. After I lowered it to weld all the joints, I sprayed the top bars with epoxy before raising it again and welding it in place. So at least they should be protected from corrosion. As far as the color coat, the most I "might" have gotten on top of the bars is a dry gritty dusting which would not offer much in terms of corrosion protection. In areas where there is just a limit on what is possible, all you can do is your best and live with it. Edited October 18, 2020 by Ironhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 Bit of prep work involved to paint a 45 year old car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Another step closer... If I recall correctly you have a GM LS3 crate engine. Have you given any thought to upgrading the stock roller needle rocker arms? They are notorious for failing sending destructive needle bearings thought out engine. The easiest solution is bronze trunnion upgrade like CHE and Manton. The CHE is said to have a higher quality bronze while the Manton utilizes a larger diameter trunnion thus increasing surface area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, 280Z-LS3 said: Another step closer... If I recall correctly you have a GM LS3 crate engine. Have you given any thought to upgrading the stock roller needle rocker arms? They are notorious for failing sending destructive needle bearings thought out engine. The easiest solution is bronze trunnion upgrade like CHE and Manton. The CHE is said to have a higher quality bronze while the Manton utilizes a larger diameter trunnion thus increasing surface area. I actually hadn't heard that. I'll have to look into it. So far the LS3 is bone stock except for changes I made to the oiling system. It's funny, I have tinkered for years with assorted Japanese and German inline engines, but I have no experience whatsoever with US pushrod V-8s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) The bronze bushing upgrade is a "piece of mind" item for me. One or two hours of labor and your choice between CHE around $180 or Manton around $270. I like the Manton for the larger bearing surface area. Oh, and you don't have to worry about changing push rod length, just swap trunnions and your good to go. The only other thing is the GM oil pump, it starts to cavitate around 6500 engine rpm. Don't think it will be an issue with your cam as I believe shift point is below. It's an easy upgrade in the future if needed... Edited October 19, 2020 by 280Z-LS3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 19, 2020 Author Share Posted October 19, 2020 17 hours ago, 280Z-LS3 said: The only other thing is the GM oil pump, it starts to cavitate around 6500 engine rpm. Don't think it will be an issue with your cam as I believe shift point is below. It's an easy upgrade in the future if needed... I am (currently) using the GM oil pump, and Gary Armstrong of ARE told me exactly the same thing. I was unsure if he was trying to sell me on a dry sump pump with a pressure stage, or was speaking the truth. It was moot anyway, I might have bitten but a larger pump would simply not fit in my application without HUGE modifications. What is the upgrade you refer to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) Katech makes some nice pumps and they are proud of them as evidenced by price. https://store.katechengines.com/oil-pumps--accessories-c199.aspx Lingenfelter offers pumps too which look to be Melling. I have not really researched/verified if other manufacturers like Melling have an "upgrade" pump with increased scavenge like Katech. As of now I may have to hold off on the planned engine mods (cam and lifters) because of budget, spending more than anticipated. Big Surprise there! Not too bummed because the stock LS3 with 430/430 HP/TQ is still going to be a handful. Either way I am most likely going to hold off on replacing pump because the red line on road race/endurance cam should be below rpm which the stock pump starts to cavitate. The Manton trunnions are a must though and $300 is cheap piece of mind. LS1Tech is a great place for LSX info https://ls1tech.com/forums/ls1-ls2-ls3-ls6-ls7-performance-3/ Edit: I should have read the descriptions of Katech pumps before commenting on price. The pricey ones are for LT1 and LS7 engines. Katech is one of the best LSX endurance racing engine builders so I need to ask them rpm limits of their pump. I seem to recall being around 7500 but don't quote me. The LS3 "wet sump" type, which we use for our scavenge only dry sump systems, are $230. Again, still don't know if it's any better than a Melling which runs for about $180. Sorry I currently don't have a definitive recommendation between the two. Edited October 20, 2020 by 280Z-LS3 Update info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted October 27, 2020 Author Share Posted October 27, 2020 Finished the painting. I am definitely ready to move on to something else: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhead Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 Since we all know how much Datsuns like to rust, I used no less than seven cans of 3M Cavity Wax and completely douched every blind spot on the car with the stuff. Primarily inside all the frame rails, and the rockers. I am also going to do the doors when I retrieve them out of storage. It spent a couple of days dripping wax. Then, after giving the car a week for the two-stage paint to harden a bit (it has remained very warm here) I carefully began final (I hope) assembly. No real rhyme or reason to it, other than trying to get all the difficult access bits attached while the car is still largely stripped. Very rewarding to have finally reached this point. Thanks for looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280Z-LS3 Posted November 5, 2020 Share Posted November 5, 2020 Does the wax smell as bad as I've heard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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