Stance coilover kit, front woes :(

[sileightygx]

Any users have this kit installed with the Sakura Garage supplied camber plates? Did the installation on a 71 240z and with the coilover threaded all the way down into the tube the front is almost stock height. The original strut was chopped and less than an inch was remaining when the tube was welded on. All arms have travel and are not stuck on anything. Funny enough the rear is only threaded into the tube 2 inches and is way lower than the front. The springs have zero preload and aren't tightened more than hand tight.

 

Anyone run into this? Talked to a few people who had them and they have so much more height adjustability than I do in the front. The coils are the older stance super sport and are the same length on all four.

 

Thanks! Also wanted to clarify no blame is being placed, just some confusion and welcome tips or if anyone spots something amiss.

Edited December 13, 2017 by sileightygx
More specific

[Zipper]

Check with cgsheen on this site, maybe get some pics. Something sounds odd to me

 

I have these on my 260z and there is a huge range of adjustment - think I could lay the rails on the ground if I wanted.

[Nv_s30]

25 minutes ago, sileightygx said:

Any users have this kit installed with their supplied camber plates? Did the installation on a 71 240z and with the coilover threaded all the way down into the tube the front is almost stock height. The original strut was chopped and less than an inch was remaining when the tube was welded on. All arms have travel and are not stuck on anything. Funny enough the rear is only threaded into the tube 2 inches and is way lower than the front. The springs have zero preload and aren't tightened more than hand tight.

 

Anyone run into this? Talked to a few people who had them and they have so much more height adjustability than I do in the front. The coils are the older stance super sport and are the same length on all four.

 

Thanks!

Yeah I have mine installed with the camber plates and did not run into any issues. But I did install mine on a 280z which shouldn't cause a problem. I still have a good amount of adjustability up front too

[sileightygx]

Thanks for the info guys. Yeah I really don't know wth is going on with this install. Engine is installed as well so there is weight on the front. Spring is a 7 inch spring. Rates are 6k front 5k rear. At first I thought my flares were installed out of wack, but measured from body and front is definitely way higher than rear. Just trying to eliminate some variables. Included the below pics of install:

 

Height

 

Threaded all the way into the stance 6 inch tube. The bottom of the threaded portion below the inspection hole on the side of the stance weld on tube.

 

Coilover is 16 inches in length from top spring perch to bottom. Shock body is fully extended.

 

Coilover body is 11 inches from top of threaded portion to bottom

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by sileightygx

[seattlejester]

Did you by chance switch the front and rears?

[sileightygx]

1 hour ago, seattlejester said:

Did you by chance switch the front and rears?

I thought about that too, but measured all of them and they are the same. Would make sense since I believe they are four s13 fronts (could be wrong?). The springs are also all 7 inch springs. 

[seattlejester]

Hmm if anything your flares look a little too low so that doesn't seem to be the problem. Your control arms almost look inverted which should indicate you are quite low. Is the sway bar hitting the tie rod by any chance? 

 

Did you add too much preload? If you add more then the corner weight you can raise the car. It looks like you have plenty of shock travel, so assuming the shock doesn't bottom out you could get rid of all the pre load and just wind the spring collar down, although I'm not a fan of that personally.

 

The only thing else I can think of is what is your tire/rim size?

 

Also is did you by chance just install it on one side? The sway bar will act as a torsion bar and will keep the strut from compressing if it is say stock suspension on the other side.

Edited December 11, 2017 by seattlejester

[74_5.0L_Z]

Is the drivetrain (engine/transmission) installed?  It will ride high if there is no weight in the front.

[TimZ]

8 hours ago, sileightygx said:

I thought about that too, but measured all of them and they are the same. Would make sense since I believe they are four s13 fronts (could be wrong?). The springs are also all 7 inch springs. 

You said earlier that they were 6k front and 5k rear (336lb/in and 280lb/in respecitvely), so which is it?  Length has nothing to do with "sameness".

 

If those are pics of your fronts as installed, it looks like you have at least 3 inches of adjustment left on the spring perch.  Screw it down until you have the strut  in the middle of its travel when loaded.  Stiff 7 inch springs will likely not have preload at the ride height you want.

[sileightygx]

6 hours ago, seattlejester said:

Hmm if anything your flares look a little too low so that doesn't seem to be the problem. Your control arms almost look inverted which should indicate you are quite low. Is the sway bar hitting the tie rod by any chance? 

 

Did you add too much preload? If you add more then the corner weight you can raise the car. It looks like you have plenty of shock travel, so assuming the shock doesn't bottom out you could get rid of all the pre load and just wind the spring collar down, although I'm not a fan of that personally.

 

The only thing else I can think of is what is your tire/rim size?

 

Also is did you by chance just install it on one side? The sway bar will act as a torsion bar and will keep the strut from compressing if it is say stock suspension on the other side.

 

It's probably the angle of the picture, but the control arm is parallel with the ground. There is no contact with any part. I didn't add any preload either, just tightened the spring lower perch barely hand tight.

 

I do not want to adjust the height via the spring either, and that is the odd part since others have much more adjustability with just threading the shock body down. All corners have the coilovers installed as well.

 

3 hours ago, 74_5.0L_Z said:

Is the drivetrain (engine/transmission) installed?  It will ride high if there is no weight in the front.

 

Yup!

 

1 hour ago, TimZ said:

You said earlier that they were 6k front and 5k rear (336lb/in and 280lb/in respecitvely), so which is it?  Length has nothing to do with "sameness".

 

If those are pics of your fronts as installed, it looks like you have at least 3 inches of adjustment left on the spring perch.  Screw it down until you have the strut  in the middle of its travel when loaded.  Stiff 7 inch springs will likely not have preload at the ride height you want.

 

You are right they are 6k front / 5k rear, was just saying without any weight to compress them all the springs are 7 inches tall.

 

I could bring down the spring perch, but from others experiences I have heard of they have not had to do this which is the problem. So I think maybe the coilovers itself are too long (stance shipped wrong ones?) 

 

I am not trying to super dump the car, and am just trying to figure out why the front height adjustment via threading down in the weld on tube is so much less than doing the same in the rear. Is that kind of adjustability normal with this setup?

 

If someone has a set can you kindly measure the front coilovers? Preferably from the top of the threaded portion to the bottom?

Edited December 11, 2017 by sileightygx

[cgsheen]

Luke - everything looks pretty much correct in your pics.

 

The springs should come with no pre-load.  All the struts should be the same length.  And the strut I have here is the same length (well, it's closer to 10 1/2 " "top of threaded portion to bottom").  

 

7" spring, 1/2" spacer under the pillow ball, and the pillow ball bolted to the aluminum camber plate which is bolted right up to the bottom of the strut tower - right?

 

What's the measurement between the ground and your frame rails under the floor / seat area?

 

Your first pic doesn't look quite right (front tire fitment in the fender) and our experience has been as stated above - plenty of travel.  Most of the installs we've done here we can get the frame pretty close to the ground if we wanted to.  Our installs usually end up being close to stock height at the upper range of adjustment with about 3" of downward adjustment.  

 

That's figuring the strut being screwed in a minimum of 2" at the upper range.  We also cut the stock strut tube down to a nub - 1/4" or less - but that doesn't really impact our installs.  We don't go down into that last inch anyway as a general rule.  (Adapter tube is 6", minus 2" for minimum thread, 3" adjustment range, 1" at the bottom unused (the adjustment knob is there))

 

Your picture that shows the front lower control arm is skewed so I can't really see the geometry.  Can you take a "flat and level" pic of it from the front?  Do you have a roll center adjuster (bump stop spacer) installed?  I'd also like to see a frame-to-ground pic.

 

 

First pic is our shop install on Patrick's 260Z front.

Second pic is Patrick's 260Z outside after the install (he's lowered it a bit more than we did since that pic)

Third pic is an early - SoCal car with our coilover set - Jorge did an awesome job, right?

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by cgsheen

[TimZ]

10 hours ago, sileightygx said:

 

You are right they are 6k front / 5k rear, was just saying without any weight to compress them all the springs are 7 inches tall.

 

I could bring down the spring perch, but from others experiences I have heard of they have not had to do this which is the problem. So I think maybe the coilovers itself are too long (stance shipped wrong ones?) 

 

I am not trying to super dump the car, and am just trying to figure out why the front height adjustment via threading down in the weld on tube is so much less than doing the same in the rear. Is that kind of adjustability normal with this setup?

 

If someone has a set can you kindly measure the front coilovers? Preferably from the top of the threaded portion to the bottom?

 

Okay, just stop for a minute.  You are making some dubious assumptions.  

 

First thing - your springs only have ~ 4.25" to 4.5" of travel before they bind.  That is very likely less travel than your shocks have.  You could very easily end up with 2" or more of strut travel before the spring touches the lower perch.

Next,  assuming your car weighs ~2600lb with you in it and 50/50 weight distribution, you can assume that you will have ~650lbs on each corner.  So, the fronts will be compressed by ~1.9" (650lb divided by 336 lb/in), and the rears will be compressed by ~2.3" (650lb divided by 280 lb/in).

 

So,

Your front springs will be ~5.1" long when the car's weight is on them, regardless of ride height.

Your front springs will have ~2.5" of travel left before binding at that point

 

Your rear springs will be ~4.7" long when the car's weight is on them, regardless of ride height.

Your rear springs will have ~2.2" of travel left before binding at that point

 

Now to the strut.  You want to have the strut near the middle of its travel at your desired ride height, and it would be nice if it didn't bottom out before the spring does.  Actually it would be nice if you had some bump stops in there to try to keep either of them from bottoming out. 

 

Anyway, with the car on jackstands, take the springs out and verify that the stroke of the strut is longer than that of the springs (i.e., the stroke should be 4.5" or longer).  

 

Then reassemble the strut without the springs, mount the tires and use a jack to put the suspension at your desired ride height.  Once you have done this, check to make sure that the strut is within an inch or so of the middle of its travel and that it still has at least 2.5" of travel before bottoming.  If you can make these three things happen at once (strut near the middle of its travel while at the desired ride height and >2.5" of travel left) then your strut length is okay.  If you cannot make this happen then you need to revisit the strut length.

 

Now, with the suspension at your desired height and still no springs, take the tire back off.  

Your front lower spring perch should be set 5.1" below the front upper perch

Your rear lower spring perch should be set 4.7" below the rear upper perch.

 

Reassemble the struts with the springs in them, put the tires back on and you are done.  

Do actually make sure you have the correct springs front and rear - 6kg/mm is not the same as 5kg/mm.

Edited December 12, 2017 by TimZ

[sileightygx]

6 hours ago, cgsheen said:

Luke - everything looks pretty much correct in your pics.

 

The springs should come with no pre-load.  All the struts should be the same length.  And the strut I have here is the same length (well, it's closer to 10 1/2 " "top of threaded portion to bottom").  

 

7" spring, 1/2" spacer under the pillow ball, and the pillow ball bolted to the aluminum camber plate which is bolted right up to the bottom of the strut tower - right?

 

What's the measurement between the ground and your frame rails under the floor / seat area?

 

Your first pic doesn't look quite right (front tire fitment in the fender) and our experience has been as stated above - plenty of travel.  Most of the installs we've done here we can get the frame pretty close to the ground if we wanted to.  Our installs usually end up being close to stock height at the upper range of adjustment with about 3" of downward adjustment.  

 

That's figuring the strut being screwed in a minimum of 2" at the upper range.  We also cut the stock strut tube down to a nub - 1/4" or less - but that doesn't really impact our installs.  We don't go down into that last inch anyway as a general rule.  (Adapter tube is 6", minus 2" for minimum thread, 3" adjustment range, 1" at the bottom unused (the adjustment knob is there))

 

Your picture that shows the front lower control arm is skewed so I can't really see the geometry.  Can you take a "flat and level" pic of it from the front?  Do you have a roll center adjuster (bump stop spacer) installed?  I'd also like to see a frame-to-ground pic.

 

 

First pic is our shop install on Patrick's 260Z front.

Second pic is Patrick's 260Z outside after the install (he's lowered it a bit more than we did since that pic)

Third pic is an early - SoCal car with our coilover set - Jorge did an awesome job, right?

 

Chuck thank you so much for the detailed post. 

 

For the ground to the seam of firewall/floor just slightly above the rail it is 4 1/2 inches. I marked the below photo with how I measured.

 

Floor level picture of the suspension (you can see the coilover threaded to about where the inspection hole stops). I also do not have a bump spacer installed, and the nub left over from the original strut is about 1/2 inch. 

 

 

Also awesome pictures! Appreciate the time you took to detail everything out for me.

Edited December 12, 2017 by sileightygx

[sileightygx]

44 minutes ago, TimZ said:

 

Okay, just stop for a minute.  You are making some dubious assumptions.  

 

First thing - your springs only have ~ 4.25" to 4.5" of travel before they bind.  That is very likely less travel than your shocks have.  You could very easily end up with 2" or more of strut travel before the spring touches the lower perch.

Next,  assuming your car weighs ~2600lb with you in it and 50/50 weight distribution, you can assume that you will have ~650lbs on each corner.  So, the fronts will be compressed by ~1.9" (650lb divided by 336 lb/in), and the rears will be compressed by ~2.3" (650lb divided by 280 lb/in).

 

So,

Your front springs will be ~5.1" long when the car's weight is on them, regardless of ride height.

Your front springs will have ~2.5" of travel left before binding at that point

 

Your rear springs will be ~4.7" long when the car's weight is on them, regardless of ride height.

Your rear springs will have ~2.2" of travel left before binding at that point

 

Now to the strut.  You want to have the strut near the middle of its travel at your desired ride height, and it would be nice if it didn't bottom out before the spring does.  Actually it would be nice if you had some bump stops in there to try to keep either of them from bottoming out. 

 

Anyway, with the car on jackstands, take the springs out and verify that the stroke of the strut is longer than that of the springs (i.e., the stroke should be 4.5" or longer).  

 

Then reassemble the strut without the springs, mount the tires and use a jack to put the suspension at your desired ride height.  Once you have done this, check to make sure that the strut is within an inch or so of the middle of its travel and that it still has at least 2.5" of travel before bottoming.  If you can make these three things happen at once (strut near the middle of its travel while at the desired ride height and >2.5" of travel left) then your strut length is okay.  If you cannot make this happen then you need to revisit the strut length.

 

Now, with the suspension at your desired height and still no springs, take the tire back off.  

Your front lower spring perch should be set 5.1" below the front upper perch

Your rear lower spring perch should be set 4.7" below the rear upper perch.

 

Reassemble the struts with the springs in them, put the tires back on and you are done.  

Do actually make sure you have the correct springs front and rear - 6kg/mm is not the same as 5kg/mm.

 

Thank you Tim, I am having a bit of a dubious day so that is why I am asking you geniuses. Very good info you posted. This is why I do not want to start lowering the spring itself. It is setup without any pre-load and only hand tightened with strut at its max height and not lowered down at all so the shock has it's normal travel for this coilover. 

 

The springs are different pairs, so 6kg/mm is the front pair, and 5kg/mm is the rear pair. 

[jhm]

One thing that caught my eye is the angle of your front control arms...they're already past level, which you normally only see in lowered cars.  This is detrimental, if you desire negative camber in your suspension geometry, and the usual fixes include relocating the control arm mounting point and/or bump steer spacers.

 

I didn't see anything about what size wheels and tires you're running.  Did you already provide that info?  My apologies if you did and I missed it.

[TimZ]

35 minutes ago, sileightygx said:

 

Thank you Tim, I am having a bit of a dubious day so that is why I am asking you geniuses. Very good info you posted. This is why I do not want to start lowering the spring itself. It is setup without any pre-load and only hand tightened with strut at its max height and not lowered down at all so the shock has it's normal travel for this coilover. 

I guess I'm not sure what you are saying here.  I was pointing out that given the short travel of the spring it is very likely that with the strut  has considerably more travel.  So, fully extended you will end up with an inch or two of free space between the spring and the perch, and that's just the way it works.  You don't have to screw the perch up until it touches the spring before installing, and unless your strut has a really short stroke you probably don't want to do that.  It's probably going to flop around at full droop and that's just the way it is.

 

Like I said, the spring is only going to compress by ~2" so if you screw the perch all the way up until it touches the spring, your ride height will be 2" from full droop, which is what it sounds like you've got.  That's just how the physics works.

 

Quote

The springs are different pairs, so 6kg/mm is the front pair, and 5kg/mm is the rear pair.

Yes that was why I said you need to pay attention to which pair you put in front.  They are not interchangeable.  The fact that they are the same length is irrelevant.