Bob_H Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I hate to post as I am heading out the door for the weekend, but I think you folks ought to know. (edit) removed (/edit) The (edit)NTK(/edit) widebands,(commonly used in the DIY kits, i.e. the honda sensor), will soon be hard to get, or outrageously expensive. It used to be made by three companies and could be bought for ~$110-140. You don't want to know what it costs through honda.... One company bought out the other two and is cornering the market. That is part of the reason why you see many wideband companies switching to the Bosch sensor. Food for thought if you are looking at buying in the next few months. You will notice the part is on national backorder and are basically not available. Try to order one if you don't believe me. I think there are less than 5 left in the US according to him,(he was shipping out ~100 wideband displays when he gave this info). He doesn't like the Bosch sensor as much b/c it is not as accurate, but it is still better than a narrowband. I won't be able to respond to questions till early next week. Bottom line, if you have one already, be prepared to pay a bunch for the replacement sensor,(like 2-300+), or plan on switching to a unit that controls the Bosch sensor. Sorry to be the bearer or bad news, but this is a reliable source and it did bear out when we were trying to order a sensor for my friends new wideband. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Good thing I haven't ordered my kit yet....that sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 So what specific sensor/year/model is it and brand preferred? If I can find some I'd rather get some of the affordable units for myself (and perhaps others if available) as I don't want my costs for that feature to go any higher! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I'm running the Bosche LSM 11 4 wire and it gives a Lamda range of 0.68 to 1.32. How much wider range is needed? It does cost about $220 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 NOT NGK, but NTK sensor and you just don't know where to look. HEHE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Originally posted by 240Z Turbo:NOT NGK, but NTK sensor and you just don't know where to look. HEHE! Pretty sure Bob meant NTK, as that is the sensor recommended by DIY. If you have a line on the sensor, please don't laugh - share it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z Turbo Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 HEHE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Huh?! umm, NO! They're NTK sensors that Bosch and others shove into their boxes. I'm pretty sure that no one has bought Bosch out The Bosch sensors that some kits ALLOW the use of (the upcoming Techedge 2.0) are supposed to be slower, more expensive, and are supposed to have a shorter life. I'm not panicking until I see some proof guys. I know someone who works with NTK engineers and is a Honda employee - I'll ask him about this. If anyone would know he would - IMO this is FUD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 This is not a new alert BTW. I've been seeing this all on the oz diyWB list for months. I also have 3 sensors, just in case . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 This from th eHonda engineer I've been speaking with "The only company in question about this sensor is NGK, and no they are not going out of business as far as I know. They have been around since the dawn of day and their stuff comes as OE fitment on something like 80% of the auto industry." He also commented that TWO new Honda apps would be coming out using OEM UEGO sensors including at least one that would be using TWO of them in each vehicle. This sensor is suposed to be slightly different but stated that minor mods to any of the existing setups out there would accomodate it. From this I gather that the response curve changed some so burning an EPROM or PIC ought to fix that. Supplies of these snesors have been low for awhile as there's been heavy demand by folks like us using them to measure A/F. This is why they're hard to find - production hasn't stopped and the SINGLE source isn't going out of business anytime soon. The Bosch 13246 O2 is the NTK sensor BTW. http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 That's what I get for posting and then leaving. I made some misleading comments in the first post. First I never said anyone was going out of business - not sure where that came from. I did say one company bought out the other two. I'm sorry, what I meant, but didn't write correctly, is one company bought the rights for the Wideband sensor, not the whole company. Basically the rights to build/manafacture the sensor. And my second misleading comment was that they are not available. I said there were ~5 left. That means currently, not no more ever. If you want to order some from thepartsbin.com, ask them to check the new jersey wharehouse/stock, but they are slightly more expensive, like ~$150 vs ~$117. The part number in question is a NTK, not NGK,(I'm a retard and was talking to someone about spark plugs right before I posted). is: C5010-75044. The sensors are very hard to get, and only one source makes them now,(vs the previous three, again, not new news, just not widely known) so it is resonable to expect the price to increase. There is a very high demand, which outstrips the current ability to supply, and with basic economics, it is reasonable to see the price increase. The Bosch sensor supported in techedge's version 2.0 is supposedly cheaper, but I don't have proof of that. More and more people are becoming aware of the extreme value of the wideband for tuning and are cleaning the shelves of supplies. I believe that is why one company bought the rights to corner the market, basic good business. Back to your regularly scheduled programing. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I would point out - there's only been one manufacturer of this part all along. It was reboxed by other manufacturers like Bosch as their own - close examination of them proves the original source. Honda has some exclusive rights on that sensor from what I gather and is continuing to use it. I don't think it's going to up and go away. The laws of supply and demand do still apply though and having a spare wouldn't be a bad idea. I may pick one up just in case but I'm not going to panic. BTW - wouldn't a sale of this technology be recorded somewhere? What company purchased this if it occured? Perhaps we can research it that way and get to the heart of the matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Alright, here's the scoop. I asked for a more detailed explanation of what is going on and here is what I got: (BTW, turns out I wasn't completely spaced out with the NGK reference) Here's the story. I'll start with the background. NGK is the North American affiliate (sister) of NTK, whick is Japanese. This company was contracted by Honda to build Wideband O2 sensors for their 1.5L VTEC engine. They were also contracted by Subaru to build the same Wideband O2 sensor (L1H1 UEGO) for their WRX. There was another company, Ekland, that bought the sensors in mass to sell to the aftermarket. Ekland was only supposed to supply them to parts stores who were only supposed to supply them to Honda owners in need of a replacement sensor. But when there are roughly 10,000 vehicles on the road and all of a sudden there are 5,000 sensors per year being sold through Ekland, NTK/NGK got suspicious. They did some research and found out that we (car guys) were using them for other applications, they saw the potential for making lots of money. So, they pulled all orders from Ekland, and have basically dried out all suppliers to the low-cost aftermarket. Honda and Subaru couldn't care less because they always did recieve their parts direckly from NTK/NGK. What it means is that now we (the aftermarket improper application consumer) must buy directly from NTK/NGK for a whopping $300+. Or... we go buy the Bosch LSU4 sensor. He then went into some detail on the Bosch sensor that I can't re-post. Bottom line, it requires more complicated controls, and that is what techedge is working on in their version 2.0. So it wasn't three companies into one, but the one company pulling the others ability to sell their product. It is always nice to get a more accurate story. I'll leave the original stuff in my first two posts so people can follow the discussion. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Yes, NTK and NGK are related - I actually knew that but whatever. Echland is probably the company he's talking about. As I understand it MOTEC or HORIBA has some sort of exclusive rights to using these sensors for A/F measuring and everyone else is supposed to use them for engine operation. You have to sign papers to that effect to get an NTK heater controller apparently. I'm goingto try and confirm this - this sounds MUCH more plausible - and scary too. We shall see, perhaps it's just a temporary shortage.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 Much more plausable than what? You mean what you said, or what I said in my last post? Sorry, you lost me there. And I highly doubt this is FUD and it is from a company who profits from making wideband A/F setups among other things. I'm glad you are the skeptic as it helps us sort through the FUD. The company is also working on a wideband for the Bosch sensor as well,(the LSU-4 vs. the L1H1 NTK sensor - should be finished in a month or so, my source is doing the programing for it). I talked to him for two hours tonight and finally got a complete picture. Sadly, I can't pass much of it on. I guess NGK is more interested in profit even if they squeeze themselves out of the "aftermarket" scene. They will always have Honda and Subaru and will provide sensors for them. But with the new Bosch,(which is just as fast in response, but requires different controls), is cheaper and will eventually replace the NTK sensor as the DIY choice. As a FYI, with the the $5000 fancy wideband mounted right next to the NTK sensor, they have the same calibration, but the fancy sensor samples near seamlessly while the NTK,(and Bosch), samples a few times a second. So a blip in the throttle would not be noticed, or would only register slightly with the NTK vs seeing the entire response with the high dollar sensor. The only real disadvantage,(well, two), of the Bosch sensor is heat and life. The NTK can withstand up to ~1200 degrees, vs the ~800 of the Bosch. That means you could put the NTK about anywhere and it would work,(it can also withstand more pressure variations). The Bosch must be mounted further downstream, i.e. the downpipe for turbo cars, etc.. And it will not last as long as the NTK sensor. The NTK is supposedly good for ~500 hours, and I don't have the figures on the Bosch other than not as long. But it is ~$77 right now, so it is cheaper. Either way, it seems that the price of the NTK sensors will go up, and I predict a shift to the Bosch LSU-4 sensor for the DIY and cheap bastard types,(like me ). As a reference, when this company finishes their new Bosch wideband setup, it will have a retail price of $500 with a sensor. So you can expect to find it in the $400 range if you shop around. That is a controler, a display and a sensor,(plus wiring). Think of the techedge kit V2.0 but with a sensor in the kit. I can't comment on what they will have that is different than the techedge kit. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 My understanding is that the Bosch sensor isn't as accurate or as fast. The NTK sensor lasts FAR longer than 500 hours. If you consider these are used in OEM Honda apps that must have a Federal Emissions warranty you'll understand why 500 hours is a joke. That number is quoted from Horiba or some such company that repackages NTK sensors and sells them for hundreds more. Yes, that's right - the $5K A/F meter you speak of is most likely using the SAME NTK sensor with a different connector. If memory serves that company removes the calibration resistor and puts a different connector on the sensor - and then sells it for like $600. That company has an "exclusive" license in the US with NTK to sell A/F meters using that sensor - this is probably why NTK may be getting excited. To be clear - that "high dollar" sensor is a $120 NTK off of an OEM Honda application. The chances of them doing any special calibrations on every sensor that goes out the door is funny. The Techedge "free air" calibration is likely as good. I can assure you too - blipping the throttle using the NTK sensor and something like an FJO controller does indeed show you more than a few samples a second - especially if you use something to read the A/F other than their supplied display. The reason for this is because FJO, and probably Techedge, take multiple samples, averagebuffer them, and then output to the display. I can actually see this on my ECU's display. The data would flip by too quickly on the LED display and be a blur otherwise - as it is it's still difficult to read. It's accurate enough that my vehicle can do per cylinder closed loop if I calibrate the ECU so that it knows what cylinder is firing when. If you want faster though NTK sells a control box but no display - it's supposed to react even faster than the FJO but again uses the SAME NTK sensor. I've been told not to exceed 800 degrees with the NTK sensor as well but post turbo I seldom see temps that high anyway. Placing it pre-turbo means I've got to worry about pressure compensation which few boxes do. Honda will be using a slightly different version of that NTK sensor in some upcoming new vehicles, it'll be interesting to see if there's an aftermarket for that sensor. If so then Techedge and others need only reprogram the PICs in their boxes for the new response curve and carry on. Will be interesting to see this new companies products. If you get a chance ask them if they will be pressure compensating their A/F readings. Right now I only know of one company in the budget range doing that but I believe he's using the NTK sensor and isn't charging as much as $500 if memory serves. Unfortunatly his boxes aren't yet available but when they are he'll be offering a version that runs two sensors for V engines which will work great on the SBC in my Z with an ECU that can handle two W/B O2. Anyway, I'm not sweating this yet. There's a shortage right now and they're hard to find. I'm not yet convinced that they're pulling the sensors from the market. In fact I'm not sure it's legal for a company to not allow replacement parts to be sold other than the dealer. I'm fuzzy here but I seem to recall there are some rules here that dealers must follow. Can you imagine the angry Honda owners when suddenly they're told it's $600 for a new O2 sensor? You think airbags and HID get stolen now? Just imagine what will occur if this were to come to pass BTW - your source is about to produce a box that's Bosch sensed. Other than this source have you any others that can confirm this? I'd think there would be a huge number of people screaming about this all over if it were this bad. I guess if NTK wants to give up the market that's their issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_H Posted January 8, 2003 Author Share Posted January 8, 2003 Again, just to clarify. I said they are drying up the "extra" suppliers effectively cornering the market. I never said dealer only. It is still second hand info, so we all will have to wait and see. And I said $2-300+, and esp. not $600. The issue is already confusing enough, lets try not to make it worse as I am clearly not helping! I'll see what I can find out on the sensor, but really, I already overstepped my bounds on what I can say. Lets just say my source is doing the programing for the controler, i.e. the PIC loops, etc.. I doubt I can reveal what they are compensating for, etc.. until the product in on the market. Such fun... -Bob edit- i did ask my friend to check the actual sensor on the expensive setup and to see about your comments on the NTK being able to do much much more. I would be very interested if their product makes it as capable as the big money setup. He was not clear on what it takes to read at that rate with the NTK. But I did put a seed of thought in his mind from your comments before he dives into the programing. I want a controler that can do per cylinder closed loop as your FJO can, but I want to do it with two sensors,(i.e. one for each turbo), and' I'm a cheapskate. I already spent $7k on the engine/tranny, not to mention intercooler, fans, radiator, exhaust, etc..... The problem I see with a turbo is I would think it would smooth out the pulses, making it harder to disecern each cylinder....But that is an area beyond my knowledge. In time. My friend is more a electrical type guy and is not as well versed in the car side of the house,(has a great desire to learn, but is still learning). I'll keep us updated with what I can. I think the timeframe they were looking at was end of this month, mid Feb to finish and start production. So I would add a month or two to that as we all know how those things slip,(see AEM and the race unit...) oh and on continuing edit: what does pressure compensating do for A/F readings? My unknowledgable take is if the pressure goes up, there will be more O2 molocules passing the sensor, so that should compensate for the extra pressure,(i.e. more gas is passing, but it senses more O2, but the result is the same, i.e. same % O2 per set amount of exhaust since all it is doing is measuring ratio...or would it register more rich?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I got to reading your post regarding the O2 sensor and started looking around for one. I just bought that kit and still needed the sensor. Well you were correct, they are in short supply here in the US, and just about any site on the net that I could reach. I also looked at junk yards, on the hotline, and they are not there either. I called the dealer, the cost 366.00 for it, honda part# 3651P07003 then my friend was looking for them also with his contacts, no dice either. I thought I was going to ba able to get one from NAPA part# os791 and did order one on line for 135.00 but they sent me a mail and saidthey were on back order. Then I tried one last thing EBAY, and found a company that has about 4 of them for 175.00 each. I called them and bought it. You can look on ebay just type in L1H1 in the home search and it will list the sensor, and their phone number. today is 1-16-03 so if you need one, they have them, not to cheap, but way cheaper then the dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I've seen the sensors on ebay. $175 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.