pparaska Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 I know, another SBC head question. But let's delve deeper than just flow numbers. I'm looking to get a good solution to this problem (an alum. cyl. head that flows well AND has a port configuration and chamber shape that makes near-the-best power/torque for not-insane money), not the BEST solution for just performance - money is important too. I'm considering the Canfield 195 heads. Â They supposedly (based on published numbers by the companies and ChevyHiPerformance Mag's test) flow about the same, with Canfields a bit better in the .200 to .400 range, which I think would be advantageous in a large engine (my 400 SBC) with a mild-ish cam (Crane 114681, 280/288 (244/252@.050) .518/.536 lift). Canfield 195s: http://www.canfieldheads.com/sbc_2500.html AFR 195s: http://www.airflowresearch.com/pages/195sbc_sh.htm (One stinker is that the flow for the Canfields is for a "mildly bowl ported" set. Hmm. More money.) But flow isn't everything. Â The AFR combustion chamber seems to have the sharp heart shape like the Vortec/Fastburn heads, which I think I've seen tested by some mag as all having great swirl. Â The Canfield heads don't have as sharp a point at the head surface between the valves. What I'd like to know is has anyone seen a back to back DYNO or track test of these two heads (or others in the AFR and Canfield lines) that might point to one being appreciably better than the other? I think cost is going to clinch it for me, unless I find out a lot of bad info on the Canfields. Â After all, Competition products can get me a set of CNC chambered straight plug heads with the springs I need for $1100. Â AFR 195s with CNC would be mor like $1400. Â Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Can't see how you could go wrong with either choice. Probably splitting hairs on output. AFRs will ding your wallet for every upgrade. I went with bigger 7/16 studs and larger 1.550 valve springs, Ka-CHING$$. I paid around 1500+ for mine with upgrades. Have they gone up in price? I based my choice on the overwhelming positive comments on the drag boards. Obviously AFR has a bigger advertising budget. I'd never heard of the canfields until Grumpyvette recommended them. BTW I'm running 11:1 with a 244 duration and have no detonation on pump premium gas. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Pete, have you considered Brodix? Take a look at their web site they show their flow numbers! One of the most respected names in the industry! http://www.brodix.com Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Mark, I've looked at those heads. The only ones that make sense (port volume wise) for a 6000 rpm 400 are the -8 and -8 Pros. They don't flow nearly as well as the AFRs or Canfield 195s. Not that flow is everything. Maybe I read too many mags, but it seems the Brodix heads (except for the -10s, -11s, etc. just aren't competitive in the smaller port volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 I posted this question on http://www.chevytalk.com: http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB64&Number=347227&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1 Interesting reading there on Canfields done up from bare castings by Competition Products not flowing well. That thread links to a 2nd gen Camaro site for the dirty details: http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/005042.html I WON'T be buying assembled Canfields from Competition Products. I'm up in the air now. It seems that the assembled Canfields from them might still win in the $ aspect. Might save up more for the AFRs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Pete, Have you considered the Victor Jrs? My Dad uses them (mandated) with the Victor Jr manifold and 11:1 compression with a fair cam and he is pushing 500+hp out of the box. Rules: Max compression 11.1:1, max displacement 5.9 liters, cam, head and inlet and carb regulated (holley 750dp). Just another option....... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Also Check the DART PRO1s... Their port volume isn't bad... 'course I'm running the 215cc runner 76cc chamber straight plug head (205/160 valves), which may be different that what you are looking for, but I'd look at ALL your options before you jump in... Lots of chunks of aluminum floating around out there... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullbound Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 interesting reading. my first set of canfields were not ordered from competition products, my engine-builder friend paul got them through a local speed shop that got them straight from canfield. the guideplates and valves were kept, but the springs, locks, studs, and retainers were replaced. i was considering getting a set for my next engine through cp and am glad to know it's not a good idea. i'll be ordering mine straight from canfield, as well as spreading the word as to the quality from competition products. like grumpy, i am a big fan of the canfields. for the price and the performance, it's really hard to beat. it looks like you've got your mind set on ordering straight from afr or canfield. for me, it would just be a matter of what i could get for the price. i think you'll come out with better heads for less dinero from canfield. afr's are awesome, dont get me wrong. but, afr seems to know they are awesome with their prices. be sure to compare what you can get straight from canfield with what you can get from jeg's. that's something i have wanted to look into. my first thought was only "i can get the same heads for cheaper from competition products." now i'm looking at it differently. and victor jr's are awesome, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 The Vic Jr and Pro 1 have good high lift flow, but the Canfield and AFR heads out flow them, based on the numbers I've seen: http://home.comcast.net/~pparaska/data/headflow2.pdf Considering the cam I will use won't be above .500" lift (intake) much of the time, the Vic Jrs. aren't in the running, since their mid-lift numbers are not that good, compared to the AFR and Canfields. The Pro 1s have the same issue - Great at .400 -.600 lift, but in the .200 to .300 area, not so hot. Looking at the area under the curve, the Canfields win out, with the AFRs very close behind. Of course, this is just intake flow at one depression. There are other things to consider (exhaust flow @ 28 in H2O, CC shape and swirl, etc.). That's why I was looking for PERFORMANCE data, dyno or track on these, back to back. But looking at the flow data and price, the Canfields look the best. Any of these heads kick the Camel hump heads I have though! I just figure if I'm going to be dropping near a grand or more on heads, I better LOOK hard before I leap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Pete, if you haven't seen Joe Sherman's EngineMasters challenge 604 hp 365 ci pump gas motor, you should really look at it before buying any parts. It was in last months PHR (what real month its labeled as, who knows?) The one with the red 70 GTO on the cover. ACtually, after posting this, went to the site and they have that article on-line now. http://www.enginemasters.com/teardowns.shtml This is the ultimate street motor, pump gas, only 365ci, hydraulic roller, and peak power at 6500 rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 Yep, read that in the mag. Those heads (215 raised runner) have too-big exhaust ports for my headers, and I don't want to change those. Nice engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Yea, that is an interesting concept. It has changed a few of my beliefs and confirmed many others. Qualifications to get into the final was based on highest AVERAGE torque and HP numbers where that little 365 was 420 hp and 480 lb ft, I believe BELOW 5000 rpm? Insane. As far as heads, Your chart seems to answer you question quite well. Based on everything I've seen about your new motor, and this info, the AFR 190 seems to be perfect, but $300 difference almost pays for roller cam upgrade... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Pete, didn't I read someplace in this forum that the Jeg's heads were actually Canfields, but at a lower cost w/o the logo?? Would that be an option? Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Yes, I've heard that too, Davy. And I wonder why they are so much cheaper - I worry that they are having a shop buy the castings from Canfield and putting crappy parts in, not to mention machine work. Once you get to putting all the heads on a level playing field as far as parts, CNC chambers, etc., the others (Pro Top Line, Twisted Wedge, Canfield) and the prices are pretty close. The more I look at it, the more just going with AFRs straight from them is making sense. Now to save up the $$$. I've not totally made up my mind, but getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullbound Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 well, the difference in price is about $150 cheaper for the set through jeg's, compared to buying an assembled set straight from canfield. a simple phone call to jegs would answer the question as to if they are assembled by canfield or not. looking at the 220 cc heads, the price is about the same as the price through canfield. asssuming they would probably sell more of the 197's than the 220's, maybe they have a good bulk buy deal with canfield on the 197's (also noting that canfields are listed as 195's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Pete, Frankly, I find it somewhat difficult to understand how one could fret over spending an additional $300 on one set of heads vs. another, when >$30,000 was already spent on the project! Canfield might be the unsung hidden gem, and AFR the celebrated show horse, but if you buy the Canfield heads you would still wonder whether the AFRs might not have been better, whereas if you buy AFR, quite possibly you would not be concerned over the alternative. So if it’s just a matter of $300 price difference, spend the bucks! Once upon a time you gave me essentially the same advice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Pete, I've got another quesation.... What has you so hung up on THAT cam profile? What is your aversion to above .500 inch lift cams?? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbeech Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Bravo Michael, I agree with your sentiments, i.e. what's the sense in fretting over the three hundred bucks when it might mean the difference in happiness? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 I have to agree for a few hundred bucks extra to have the heads you know deep down you want I say spend the extra money and go AFR. Look what you already have tied up in your ride whats a few bucks more seriously go AFR if you have any doubts! By the way I like the motor your putting together..good numbers! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 BTW, Jeg's seems to buy the castings from Canfield and have the valve work done, based on their description of what they have. Michael, good point on the money spent, but money is tight these days. I will probably just save longer and get the AFRs. Mike, that cam I'm starting out with is .518/.536 lift (after lash is subtracted). About as big as you can go on lift for a just-streetable FLAT TAPPET cam. It's the one grumpyvette suggested and that the engine is being set up with (rod/cam clearancing). I agree that a roller could get me maybe .040" more lift for the same duration numbers, but that's another pile of money (~$800) to do cam/lifters/springs/pushrods/retainers/locks/etc. Granted the .200 duration and above is better on the rollers, as well as area under the lift/duration curve, but that's a pile of money I don't have available. Heads will gain me at least 40hp over the wimpy stock castings I have (that have been bowl ported) but as Vizard points out, with cams in the range I'm in (280 deg or less) a roller is maybe up to a 20 hp advantage - one I'm leaving on the table. If I were to put money somewhere else in the engine, it'd be headers or port injection. Thanks for the thoughts on this - appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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