RB section gone?

[J Taylor]

Personally, I am glad some of the forums are being put together. I have thought we had too many forums for a while now. I'm sure I've missed many topics that would interest me simply b/c I don't feel like looking through 48 forums.

JT

[280Zen]

Although I understand why the forums have been combined, Having a L6 forum made it much easier for me to find info that related to a L6 engine. Im a newbe! and know absolutly zilch about auto engines in general and rebuilding my car which I plan on doing. Its not going to be anywhere near stock when Im done. The problem I will be having now is wading through info that may or may not pertain to my issues and knowing what does or does not pertain to me.

 

May have to change my name to Zenless Z

[Pop N Wood]

I have been holding off on commenting about this whole business but it is starting to get the better of me.

 

I went on the corner carvers site exactly one time. The first thread I opened had Dan Baldwin engaged in a running discussion with some people about an aftermarket, chrome moly A arm breaking on some guy's Mustang. Dan Baldwin also posts on this site and I have always been impressed with the quality and knowledge in his posts.

 

Well apparently the people on the corner carvers site weren't as impressed. Dan had to endure posts like "did you type that response with your ass?" I then read the "rules". Apparently you can be banned for typing even a single post in all caps, but starting a flame war and personally attacking another member because you don't agree with his technical assessment of a very dangerous situation is OK.

 

There are several things that really differentiate this site from others. Most have been touched on, but one of the attributes that I have always been impressed with is the respectful tone of most posts. This obviously hasn’t just happened. Kudos to the moderators for keeping things civil. But in dealing with some of the current issues, I think we have lost site of one of our basic tenets, treat others with dignity and respect.

 

Case in point, we now have a sticky at the top of the 6 cylinder swap forum telling people to not be lazy, follow the rules or you will be banned. And if you don’t like it or complain about it, you will be banned. Oh, and by the way, Rule #1 is don’t ask any questions because chances are it has already been answered, so if you ask it you are lazy and will be banned. Such a confrontational attitude sort of makes mockery of the statement:

 

I'm tempted to ban you for the assumption you'll be banned and the tone of the assumption to be honest.

 

I honestly don’t share some members sense of urgency at our current problems. I can't understand why some members continually get their "panties up in a bunch" when someone doesn't do a search. The phrase

 

answering the same exact basic question over and over again gets old really fast

 

has never made any sense to me. Why does anyone feel the compulsive need to answer every post? Hit the back button and go on! And do we really want to tell people to use a spell checker? Do we really want to come off with such an elitist attitude?

 

Having said all that, I want to add that I have followed the threads discussing our current issues. I respect the wishes of other members who want to see strong measures taken to ensure posts like “how do I tune my SU’s” or “how fast do you think I can go” don’t happen anymore. Our member ship is growing in leaps and bounds and maybe steps need to be taken to lessen the moderator’s load or to steer us in a different direction. But this shouldn’t have to come at the price of insulting people.

 

Look what is happening now. We have long time members wondering if they are no longer welcome. We have people getting defensive because they are doing something different then the V8 mainstream. I think the attitude

 

I don't see anyone of quality leaving this site because of this

 

is not a good one. Read the post if you don’t believe me.

 

I would like to see the proliferation of confrontationally sticky’s consolidated into one coherent message. I think some of the wording can be toned down. You don’t need to wave the big stick of being banned to get your point across.

[Pop N Wood]

BTW, J Taylor, beautiful car!!

[texasz]

Jim, thank you for echoing and helping to furhter explain my thoughts from my post.

 

Drax, I got the idea that I may be banned for my post due to the statements and tone in the sticky post in this forum talking about banning members, and Jim further explains my feelings in his post.

 

Bob, thank you for taking the time to go through and address my concerns, I know that this was a time consuming process. I do feel a little better about the changes and statements made but there are still some that should be phrased differently as Jim has pointed out.

 

280Zen, I too found it easy to locate info on the Datsun L6 forum and not have to weed through all the posts that pertain to other 6cyls.

 

J Taylor, I have to agree that's a great looking car. I've been admiring it for several weeks now since I first saw it. I even showed my wife who doesn't really care about my little toy and she liked it too and asked when mine would look like that. Sad answer to that is that it will probably never look that good.

 

As a side note, I totally agree with the "speak English" and "use spell check" in your posts. However, there is no spell check option here. Is this a limitation of the software being used or is there an option to add it in? Doing a copy/paste to something that does have a spell checker and then copy/paste back again is a pain and frankly why it is not done all the time. If I'm missing something and there is a spell checker here please let me know because I don't see one.

[johnc]

Many of us don't see the problems that Mike, Pete, Dan, Davy and others have to clean up from time-to-time precisely because they've cleaned the mess up. The volume of that cleanup had grown significantly and it was becoming a burden on people's time. What's being done now is a well thought out, reasoned approach to tightening the rules on the site and making it easier to moderate.

 

I'm fine with it and I'm an L6 guy. Its not going in the direction of the "Soup Nazi." Its only requiring a little more thought and effort by members before posting.

[Bob_H]

I went on the corner carvers site exactly one time

Jim, one visit is hardly enough time to form an opinion. A snap judgement? Absolutely. Dan still posts there if that is of any indication. In that post, Dan didn't follow some of the basic guidelines of corner-carvers, such as back up why you are saying something,(at the time you post it, not four or five posts later) provide proof, etc.. He eventually did, and they respected his opinion.

Again, it is a different site, with different goals. Their approach is very sucessful and has good reasoning. It most certainly is not for everyone. However, there is much to learn from their approach and some of those approaches can be applied here and still fit the spirit of hybridz. It is just one of the more extreme examples and it works. That is part of the reason why it is used as a reference so much. Again, their approach as a whole is not the best option for here and it won't be applied for just that reason.

How much time did you spend in the RB forum? I mean really spend reading the posts? There is a reason the sticky is only in that forum,(and not others) as it was one of the biggest problems in the site with respect to the issues brought up in this and other threads. As such, I and others felt the stronger approach was warranted. Over time, that will not be required as a sticky anymore and I will delete it or just let it fall off the front page.

With the consolidation of the forums, I revised it to an extent, but not the title. Perhaps with the more broad forum a title revision is in order as we are talking about more than the RB issues,(and the alternate 6 cyl forum never really had much of a problem). However the original title, while not "friendly" was appropriate and warranted. It sometimes takes extreme measures to get peoples attention, esp with how much people are deadened to reading "don't do this". Hopefully we can move on. You are right, there are now too many stickies and announcments at the top of forums to make sense. A consolidation is absolutely in order. Will someone be banned for not doing what it says? Not likely. You have to push some buttons pretty hard for an admin to boot you. But it grabs peoples attention and makes them read it. It also significantly reduced the number of "offending" posts in that forum immediately - so it is working.

With respect to spell check, I meant it to mean using cut and paste on your computer to check it with your own programs. It is more directed at those who have terrible spelling and grammar skills and take no effort to compose a coherent, readable post. A small spelling or grammar error is a minor detail that doesn't detract from the post and was not the point of that guideline. But every other word spelled incorrectly with 2nd grade grammar makes it hard to read.

One last clarification.

Why does anyone feel the compulsive need to answer every post? Hit the back button and go on! And do we really want to tell people to use a spell checker? Do we really want to come off with such an elitist attitude?

I didn't mean an individual answering the same post again and again, I meant different people answering the same question from people over and over again, i.e. "How do I swap a RBXX in my my Z?". I'll answer it today, someone new posts it tomorrow because they are lazy and won't even look down the front page, and Stony answers it. Then on Saturday, another newbie asks the same exact thing and a third person answers it again, and again....and again.. That has happend on that particular question more than I care to recall. I thought that was clear, but now I see how it could not be.

And absolutely I want people to at least think about whether they should use a spell checker. I addressed this in detail earlier in this post. If you sit there and write a post and think, "Are people going to understand me w/the way it is written now?". That pause alone can make a huge difference in many of the posts in question.

I have changed the title in that sticky as well as put some slight revisions based on what you said. In the end I would rather see some toes stepped on and have this site stay the great site is has been than have everyone with a warm fuzzy and watch this site go down the toliet like it was.

-Bob

[Drax240z]

First off, its really easy to have all your L6 posts in one place. Do a search for L6. You'll get XXX number of threads listed, and you won't have to wade through anything but L6 posts. Same goes for RB.

 

Secondly, I cannot stand when people start a post with "this will probably get me banned, but.." To me that is a cry to become a martyr and be banned. State your mind. Do it intelligently. Don't hack other people in the process and there likely won't be a problem. Stating it up front is just telling everyone that you are intentionally trying to piss people off IMHO.

 

Multiple posts on the same topic:

We are limited in server space Jim. One aspect to the problem is answering the same question over and over again uses up this space, slows down the search engine, provides spam for every member to read through, and generally it has been answered in depth allready. If no one answers the person will bump their post over and over again until someone does. I don't understand how people cannot justify a 2 minute search, but can justify posting on the same thread over and over again wasting their time. It amazes me the process some people will go through to avoid doing work for themselves.

 

Look what is happening now. We have long time members wondering if they are no longer welcome. We have people getting defensive because they are doing something different then the V8 mainstream. I think the attitude

 

I don't see anyone of quality leaving this site because of this

 

is not a good one. Read the post if you don’t believe me.

 

Well I've read it again Jim, and I absolutely will stick to my guns here. People are wondering if they aren't welcome, because they are misinformed. (our fault, but there is a reason) Once it was explained that they aren't being kicked off, there was no problem.

 

I still don't see anyone of quality packing up and leaving because of this. Yes a few people might take this personally and be pissed off enough to stop posting for a while. However, in the end they are after the same thing everyone else on the board is, good technical discussion on Z related mods. As people have stated allready there isn't anywhere else to go to do this at this level. There doesn't NEED to be any place else either, because everyone is still welcome here!

 

And I've not wanted to go this route, but: This is the way it is, and will be for a while. This is not a democracy, but at the same time we want to make this a place where people are happy. The moderators were having to put up with a lot of garbage in the past month, including threatening PM's, emails, and general harassment, not to mention all the other daily crap like flame wars, close-mindedness to the extreme, and people asking us to kick someone else off the board for what they wrote. Its a big job, and a thankless one for the most part. The moderators and admins were NOT happy with the way things were going, and because we are the ones that have to deal with it, we changed it.

 

Now if someone wants to pay me to be a moderator, then I won't push towards running this site the way it is easiest for me. (and liekly the same goes for other mods and admins) But as it is, we volunteer our time and don't like to take 2 hours out of our day to moderate here. I think we'd all prefer to read and reply to posts, and have the moderation and administration duties take 2 minutes a day, like it has for the previous 3+ years up until recently.

[280Zen]

read this first or risk being tarred and feathered!

 

hehe, went from being banned to tarred and feathered! hehe As the official representitive of "Feathered Or Winged League" Or "FOWL" its my duty to inform you that any usage of feathers with tar is illegal except for us southerners! I believe the prefered method for you northerners was hanging?

[Tim240z]

read this first or risk being tarred and feathered!

 

hehe, went from being banned to tarred and feathered! hehe As the official representitive of "Feathered Or Winged League" Or "FOWL" its my duty to inform you that any usage of feathers with tar is illegal except for us southerners! I believe the prefered method for you northerners was hanging?

 

"Beuford, get a rope!"

Tim

[280Zen]

hehe, PS Tim you should be getting a package this week, sent it out Tuesday.

[stony]

WOW,

 

 

I wanted to reply yesturday but my spacebar was actiling like a backspace. anyways its fixed now.

 

I think that sticky on the "so you wanna do an rb swap" in the old rb forum would have killed alot of the basic over and over questions. i personally spent very little time in any other forum except the rb and drivetrain sections because those were the things Im really involved with now.

 

I'm cool with an 6 cylinder forum only. the only reason i posted the question was i thought something was wrong with my computer ;>

 

As for answering the same questions..... if the title even looks familiar i dont open it anymore. i recieve an email every other day from people wanting the basic info. i have a word doc a cut and paste and reply with ;> if none answers a multiple repeat question then it will force the member to search more.

 

I personally like the old search where you could look in all section at once. took a little time but you would be suprised how some topics get off topic and migh mention the exact thing you were looking for. ie rotary info in the v-8 section.

 

anyways the forum rocked in the beginning, in the middle and is still going strong in my opinion. keep up the good work.

[Mike kZ]

I personally like the old search where you could look in all section at once. took a little time but you would be suprised how some topics get off topic and migh mention the exact thing you were looking for. ie rotary info in the v-8 section.

 

Stony check this post about searches.

http://www.hybridz.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24891

[stony]

well dont i feel stupid. ive been here for a while and never noticed that search thing. i did a search for rb swap and got 2356 hits in every single forum. then i did a more specific search rb26 and got 133 hit.

 

That search function needs to be in everyones "do a search" reply. Most people will be in the forums when they are searching. if there was a message put out to all the members about this search option it would clear alot of things up. again great job guys keep it up ;>

[Mikelly]

Jim Powers, You are in titled to your opinion. However, you aren't looking at things from "Our" side of the fence, which is what matters most to me.

 

We're not trying to run off those who take a bit of initiative, do a little research, and impliment the search functions or ask members off line. I answer about 40 PMs or e-mails per week offline. I prefer it that way. Also, this site is a free service provided out of pocket. Anyone is welcome to go start their own site, just as we did back in 1999. Simple as that. We made this site for "US" and then opened the door for everyone else to come in, provided the rules "WE" deem necessary are followed. I liken it to ME inviting YOU to my house, and then YOU telling ME how to behave in my own home. Not gonna happen.

 

We've been fairly even handed by and large, and the fact that we've taken drastic measures as of late should NOT make you wonder what is going on with US, but what is going on on the site. Seems that the moderators and admins are getting too much of the blame, and not those who have taken us to this point... Sorry but I am not gonna sit back and let this site go into the toilet and neither is ANY of the other moderators. It is called accountability. Act like a jerk and you get jerked (Not calling you one specifically Jim! ).

 

We recently banned a kid and then asked him to quit begging to get back on the site. The kid turns around a week later, calls me some choice four and five letter words and then demands to be let back in... Does that sound like the way to endear yourself to the admins and moderators? This is the exact type of crap we have been dealing with for MONTHS and we have to stop it and hold those accountable for their behavior. So we're here because of them... You want to be upset or have an opinion, that is your right. However, the mods and admins didn't just arbitrarely do this. It has come over a period of months and you have SOME of the membership to blame for it. Yell at them, not us, and not in public.

 

We want folks who want to stay to stay. If this process is to painfull for some, then maybe they are better off on other sites. It is THAT simple. We're not asking anyone to leave, just to follow the rules.

 

 

We'd like to be able to continue on as things are right now, but we will rachet it up another notch or two if we must.

 

Mike Kelly