More pointless posts. Im going to hibernate. Ill be Back!

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

I know it looks silly to some and to others a very functional part because it clamps down from the top. the proper way to seal the injector into the manifold and rail.

I could get fancy but then we are talking another $ amount that may exceed the cost of the fuel rail.

The mounts shown are 2-90mm stainless steel bolts that are inside aluminum tubing that only allow for so much clamping. one on each side. that's it. simple,clean, and functional.

 

[pallnet]

This thread is in relation to:

 

http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=420855&t=420855

 

 

Does everyone know what I do for a living?? I am a certified Jaguar and ASE tech. Doe’s this mean what I say can be carved in stone? No! But, this tells you that I’m not just a babbling idiot that can type.

 

These are a few questions for JSK with my concerns.

 

Did you sell O-ringed rails to customers without hardware to mount them?

 

Is that really what it will look like after?

 

Is it a better way to make mounting brackets the way you did, as far as function?

 

It looks like it will function with no real problems except a few. One minor and the other could be major. “Looks†as well as “how well a part works†is always considered in every sale of any custom part. IMO the mounting hardware is not appealing in any way shape or form.

 

Honestly, you should do more R&D. Your O-ring rail is based off of the DSM injectors and as stated by you. This would be fine if everyone used only DSM injectors. There is a difference in DSMs and other 11mm O-ring type injectors and this can’t be made up as a later fix like a band-aid.

Are you going to speedy sleeve your injector ports to make them seal up against other 11mm O-ring injectors, other then the DSMs?

This could be a VERY serious problem.

We’re talking about fuel sitting over an intake manifold that is sitting over an exhaust manifold. Many guys like the RX7 injectors cause they are 460cc N/A, low ohms and are very easy to find.

 

 

Will your rail support normal running pressures with these smaller O-ringed injectors inside holes milled for the DSMs?

 

Better yet, fuel pumps can build pressure sometimes double normal running pressure (32psi) if the pump is still running while the return is capped off.

 

Will your rail support these injectors at say, 100psi??

 

 

All new parts that I sell are put through tests to try to make them fail under unreal conditions. That way I know for sure that they will holdup to everyday usage. After seeing what was said on hybridz in the thread about your brake kits, I feel that you do not do this. Although for the most part, I do like the looks of the parts you produce. This does not mean they work properly or as stated.

 

There seems to be some doubts about my mounting brackets for the pallnet O-ring rail.

In the pics below you will see a pic of a Jaguar rail that was in production from 1988-1997. My rail is based on the same principles of this rail, as far as mounting. The Jaguar rail is made of steel for ease of production reasons. The way my brackets are made, failure is highly unlikely. Either the mounting bolts would have to strip out more then ¼†of 6mm tapped thread from the rail. Bend the rail mounting brackets (not enough leverage). Or rip out roughly ½†of tapped 8mm thread from the intake mounting points.

 

 

My rail mounted on a intake manifold.

 

 

If this is not enough for some of you, feel free to take the link below copy this vid to your computer and watch.

 

I forgot to mention that before i ran this test, i abused the rail mounting by holding the setup by the rail and shakeing it around like a ragdoll very insane like to try to make it come loose in any way shape or form.

I also left the rail under the max pressure in the vid for more then a half hour.

 

Vid link below. sorry, you will have to copy and paste to get to the vid.

 

ftp://injectortest:password@68.63.18.210

[pallnet]

The seal in the pic that follows is not intended for being crushed..

 

Look at ANY car that uses this style of injector, it is not crushed.

 

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Hi peter if you are asking me to show my rail under your stated condition I can for all to see. The rubber cushion on top of the injector seems to be a bit crushed in that photo. This does not effect the operation of the injector nor the sealing principle since the sealing is in the o ring chamber itself. I state that my rail is based on the Mitsubishi(Eclipse to be xact). I had earlier in the year received feedbacks to make them using the eclipse turbo o ring injectors. Mounting is included with the rails. I don't know where everyone is getting the idea that I am selling these without mounting. I also state that the mounting is based on a direct downward mount. Just like the oem eclipse rail.

Your rail style looks great and if it can evenly distribute downforce that the o ring needs to keep proper sealing and keep the rail from popping off then thats all that matters.

I have made the o ring bores to the same exact size as the oem eclipse rails using CNC precision machinery. Someone putting in rx7 injectors I do not recommend. Again I dont know where the rx7 is coming from.I hate how this is always turning to a comparison. Some like yours some like mine. I dont know what else to say.

Thanks Juan

 

Some editintg 11:37am dec2

 

The photo here is the way i originally intended for the injectors to mount on the lower portion. At this link I illustrated how I was orginally stating it would look like. http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=414968&t=414921#reply_414968

The mounts on the bottom are stock. You can run them all the way across but I only showed one because I was too tired last night to to finish the intake and keep posting.. This way you are using more support and making sure everything stays nice and straight. Finish by caping downthe o ring rail with 90mm bolts inserted into 52 mm x .25" aluminum tubes.

 

[DatsunBoy77]

Eclipse injectors 0-rings are the same size as most top feed import injectors. I have seen many honda's and Nissan's running around with them injectors. And plus many aftermarket injector companies make them for those applications now. And they are also low impedence. Also, after looking at Pallnets rail and the jag's rail, i did notice something. On the Jag's you can see on their mount, there is suppot on the side that prevents the rail from moving. I feel as withought that it there seems there is more room to flex. That of course is just going by looking, I dont have the two to compare in front of me to see. i hope you all can undersatnd what i am saying, i will try and edit the picture to show you.

[fl327]

dial calipers dont lie.

[pallnet]

 

This brings us back to R&D.

This pic makes no sense...the bottom of the injector is not the major part to be concerned about. It’s the top where the fuel can leak out allover your engine and cause a fire that can completely ruin your custom or classic ride. Sure that setup will hold but, does it look nice? Is it overkill?

 

I hate how this is always turning to a comparison. Some like yours some like mine.

 

This is in no way to compare my rail to yours. It can't be done! I have put many LONG hours into trying to make my parts fail in every way I have seen others fail in the automotive industry. Remember, I have to tell people why a part failed as part of my job. Another part of my job is some field engineering to an extent.

 

I have made the o ring bores to the same exact size as the OEM eclipse rails using CNC precision machinery. Someone putting in rx7 injectors I do not recommend. Again I dont know where the rx7 is coming from.

 

 

Can I get a show of hands?? There are MANY people running or about to run RX7 injectors with SDS, haltech and others... this also brings us right back to R&D.............

 

Like I have said to others and I’m not going to change what I say... " I like how your products look except for a few things"

 

This in no way means that I condone your parts. Cause to be honest with you, if they fail then they are useless.... the same would go for mine.

 

 

 

I did not draw attention to this pic cause of sealing issues. This is just a hole that is too deep. This is poor workmanship. I’m not perfect and I know this but I saw that one right out the box. In the beginning stages of my rail design.

 

I will not tell you how to make your parts. That is your job. This is like I said before, concerns...

 

This is not an attack on you Juan. It’s not. This is just presenting the facts about these O-ring rails. I have done my homework on O-ring rails long before you were making Z parts and selling them online... this is a fact. To be honest with you. The first rail I made was for 14mm O-ring injectors. Long before I thought of making rails for others. It used 1989 jaguar xj6 injectors.

 

I know my parts may not be "eye candy" to some people but they work. My brackets hold as stated... my rails do not leak when properly installed.

 

I brought this on cause of constantly seeing that people feel my O-ringed rail will leak cause, the brackets do not go over the top of the rail.

I completely put aside the issue of my lexan spacers. Although, I was going to put all that on here and Zcar a while back after seeing one of your auctions and it saying something about your aluminum spacers being better then plastic. If lexan was to fail in the conditions our cars would put them through, it would not be used as windows of jet liners. Just an example...

 

One would think that you having access to all these tools and making parts for the performance Z market. This would not have come up as an issue.

 

 

 

DatsunBoy77

 

The bracket to the left is obviously not for mounting the rail and neither is the one on the right. Pretty much anyone can tell that. The one right next to the bung is the one. The "L" shaped bracket is made that way cause it's not thick. They made it from thin stock.

 

Believe me. If I could get away with having my camera in the yards. I could flood this board with pics of rail mounting that looks very much like mine.

 

Something i forgot to add in the beginning of all this.

I don't want some people to get the wrong idea about all this.

This is not about money or parts sales. I make what ppl ask for and no more. This is one of my hobbies, not a major income..

I can never have enough money and that is the rule i live by but, my chacks from work are just the right size for me to live comfy.. If you know what i mean..

[DatsunBoy77]

The bracket to the left is obviously not for mounting the rail and neither is the one on the right. Pretty much anyone can tell that. The one right next to the bung is the one.

 

The one i was talking about was the one all the way to the right. It is tought to see how thick it is from the picture or withought ever seeing it in person. But seeing the bracket is straight and has the extra material on the side that makes more of a almost triangular design would seem to have more strength, but like i said earlier it is tought to tell withought pictures. And don't take it as me bashing anyones product, i would just like to as stong as possible rail on the market. I wouldn't want mine to leak. Call it brainstorming.

[wigenOut-S30]

The bracket to the left is obviously not for mounting the rail and neither is the one on the right. Pretty much anyone can tell that. The one right next to the bung is the one.

 

The one i was talking about was the one all the way to the right. It is tought to see how thick it is from the picture or withought ever seeing it in person. But seeing the bracket is straight and has the extra material on the side that makes more of a almost triangular design would seem to have more strength' date=' but like i said earlier it is tought to tell withought pictures. And don't take it as me bashing anyones product, i would just like to as stong as possible rail on the market. I wouldn't want mine to leak. Call it brainstorming.[/quote']

 

Did you watch the vid that pallnet did? He took his O-ring set up to 130psi .. no leaks.. I think you dont have to worry about it leaking..

Is anyone here pushing more then 130PSI of fuel pressure? Anyways this is some great information.. good posting guys..

[tyson]

I have made the o ring bores to the same exact size as the oem eclipse rails using CNC precision machinery.

 

CNC machinery is incredibly accurate....When its programmed correctly. If the operator does not give PRECISE numbers to work with in the first place, it will not give any greater level of crafstmanship.

 

Also, as accurate as CNCs are, they still do mess up. I have a friend in a machine shop and has to check every little piece of metal that comes out of it for any flaws, and he does have to throw some pieces into the scrap bin because the CNC did not mill the piece correctly.

 

Are you personally double checking every one of your rails that comes out of the machine? Or are you just taking the operators word that they came out OK?

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

This is always going to go on as long as someone is producing parts. I dont have much more to say and would rather save my strengh and energy for much work I need to do tonight. My rail is suppose to do its job and to seal and provide the strentgh to stay put. Other wise I wouldnt be producing them. Thanks

Juan

[v8dats]

hello ...........

[datsunlover]

dial calipers dont lie.

 

Um, actually, they can. I saw one do it today. The gear inside skips sometimes, and throws out the dial about..oh... .030. (But thats a 10 year old vern.. )

[Tony D]

I'll add my .02 here.

The O-ring is not sealed by the crush of something pushing the rail from the backside towards the pintile end.

It is a static seal. The rail only needs to be held immobile in relation to the O-ring when it is compressed and in the rail, on the injector. You should be able to rotate your injectors when they are installed before tightening down the Nissan Clamps.

I can rotate mine.

Anyway, while that clamping method shown looks functional, it seems it would put a lot of crush-stress on the body of the injector. Even if the aluminum tubing holds the crush off, what keeps the rail positioned (from moving closer to the pintle end of the injector)? I can see how it keeps the rail from blowing OFF the ends of the injectors, but what keeps it from going too far ONTO the injectors?

 

Normally the rail is positioned with a block to the manifold, that tightens the rail onto the injectors, but stops it before there is too much crush on the injectors. On those setups, I can rotate the injectors. They are totally static sealed, floating on the O-Rings (good for visco-elastic frequency dampening!) with no stress on the Injector Bodies at all.

 

At least after reading this, it all makes sense what the hullabaloo was about...

[David K]

[img']http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TQDXAq0Xip6o*Q5ALVOQJ29UWbVBHwaWuYEegT5pV2lso848ePui08yMJ6lh6yjgrCSZpdDcNcAv7LDkG0Dr4RWrq0eHkG!eyvDnkXg1GvW6kfsNzNrnHw/Picture%20163.jpg?dc=4675449564302882473[/img]

 

Oh come on man, you are holding that dial BY HAND, on a ROUND object. There is no way of positioning it exactly in the same place as the other injector unless you are a machine yourself

[Tony D]

someone needs to enroll in Basic Measurment Techniques for SPC in Manufacturing 101...

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

 

 

 

Tony you read my mind about the aluminum. I decided to use copper. Looks nice and is stronger. All I can say is it does not move. I even stood on the rail I weigh 170. I don't recommend you standing on it but just stating. Silly point I know. The copper tubes are cut to a length of 52mm. This tube length keeps it from pressing to much on the injectors.

 

Tony also stated that the rails are held down into the intake on modern autos. This provides all levels of mouting holding the injectors in and keeping the rail from moving at all. I decided it would be best to use stock injector mountings on the bottom. I have gained much extra support holding the injectors more stable an the bottom leaving me to worry about the rail up above (which has been clamped down just far enough to put a press on the outer seals).

 

I am writing this to help people understand my mounting setup and is in no negative reponse to earlier posts thank you Juan

[pallnet]

david please take the time to goto a yard and pull the two different injectors. remove the O-rings and compare the two. you will see..

 

sometimes my techniques may seem crude..

but, affective

[pallnet]

[Tony D]

You know, I've been thinking aboutthat strap clamp setup. I don't see why you couldn't use shorter "standoffs" of the copper tubing to limit the crush towards the pintile end of the injector, and use a second strap, with no limiting tube, to pull th top of the rail down onto the injector, and tight against the lower strap. This should solidly position the rail from any movement...

Seems so simple, I don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier.