ZR8ED Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I don't want to really sound like i'm going off on some tyrant flame throwing binge, but since I'm solidly putting exponential amounts of time here at this site inversly proportionate to the time spent on my Z.. (hey its winter..I'm hibernating like the mighty Canadian beaver! hehehe JK) Anyways this is just observations on my part, as I have been reading almost every post here over the last few weeks... What is it with newbies to Z's...heck even newbies to cars, that just brought home a 30yr old Z that want their first mod to be an engine swap? It rolls off the tongue easy enough to swap out a small block for a big block in a nova, but taking one type of engine (straight 6) and dropping in a motor with a totally different configuration, different mfg with different specs, with and engine with different goals, with different chassis' etc etc.... and just come on this site and ask how to do it? and does it cost much? BWAHAHAHAHA! Man if you have to ask, you don't have enough money to do it right in the first place.... Even the most basic of upgrades on a L6 can spiral out of control (money wise) when working on a 30 year old car with 30year old bolts.. I have yet to see a hybridz...(in running condition) that has not taken 2-3 times the original budget to get it that way... its usually the story of "i did it under budget....its done..all i have to do is put in some interior, tires, clean up some wires, put in a new battery, and get it painted! hehehe Those that even remotely look like show cars when done have cubic time and probably cubic $$$ into them...$40,000 doesn't go far if you have to buy stuff and pay someone to design and install stuff... BEEN There DONE it, got the bills to prove it... and EVEN if you DO complete it in a reasonable amount of time under budget...you better have some budget for all the other parts that can and will brake when you increase the performance of your Z by 100% +++++let alone the tuning of said engine....better get it right or BOOM..you need a new head gasket, seals...etc.. or worse.... Custom fabrication is practically an artform and requires serious car knowledge..some engineering capabilities..or even just plain common sense.. The steel involved in motor mounts is easy..the time designing it, making sure it fits and is strong enough to take lots of abuse, keeping all geometries in check takes TIME.. if you can't do it.. you are gonna pay someone big time to mfg from scratch... Hybridz began has a low cost method of using readily avail parts to keep your car running and increase performance... Some of the swaps going on here are stunning or will be stunning when complete. Its incredible the effort people will put into these types of uncommon or rare swaps. It is also incredible the cubic money that gets thrown at these projects... oh yea the guy may do all his own work, but has 20K tied up in tools to help him...nothing wrong with that..just something to consider when starting a large project. I also hear that people can do simple rebuilds for super cheap, but come back here trying to figure out why the engine is not building all kinds of hp....there is a reason that Junkyard engines and junkyard rebuilds last a short time, and a top notch mechanic rebuilding that same engine will be 10 even 20 times the cost... ya get what you pay for I say...Swapping out your burned out 6cyl in your pickup to a 350 v8 may be realatively simple, but a whole different ball game trying to make a high performance exotic from a 30yr old sports car. Now don't get all bent out of shape if you think im targeting someone...I'm not...I've been seeing this stuff going on here..my car club, local car scene etc.. for years and years...and it makes me laugh sometimes... Even more when they cut up what I have accomplished with my car when they haven't even started theirs.... I would think 70% or better don't even finish, or hastily finish up their projects and cut corners, or have cars that sit and rust away all together... Even funnier when they mention some obscure realitive or friend who has a car that can beat mine, did his swap in less time with 1/4 of the cost... Anyone else care to add to comment on this trend? I see it more and more, from younger and younger people....oh wait...i'm getting older....maybe that has something to do with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 i know now that you need to take your budget and times it by 2 or 3 and thats how much you will really spend.. i thought i would spend atleast 8K.. now im past 20K and its not even been a year and im only 20 years old.. good post man mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I will absolutely agree with the budget and time factor. I figured my conversion would take 6 months and about $3grand. Both have been exceeded by 10 times that, without exageration!! It's not for the faint of heart!! Sure, you can do the conversion for under $3k, but it will be a pile of crap, not show quality for sure!!! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I must say I concur with an engine swap NOT being the place to start working on your car. But it can be show quality for a reasonable budget, but it falls into the old adage that you can have it good, cheap, or fast in any combination, but not all of them! So Good and Cheap means it will take FOREVER while you scrimp, save, shop, and trade. If you want it now, and you want it nice, get the wallet out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonzer12 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I wholeheartedly agree with one point to add. There is a line in the JTR, 7th edition that reads something to the effect of "don't get carried away with ''building'' an engine when all you really want to do is an engine swap". I am a few months away from my long awaited trip to the southern USA to get my Z but I have been planning my swap for about 2 years now. So far I have a LSD, a freshly rebuilt, barely over stock 327 SBC and a tranny and new clutch. I've been careful in waiting for deals and have all the above for 3k canadian mostly by finding people down on their luck (engine). The point to all this is if you are someone like me who does not live near a track or drive on the freeway a somewhat stock smallblock engine will give you all the performace in a Z you will USE and won't cost you all that much. I am going to pay a small fortune for the car because I want something in very good shape but my actual swap cost I assume to be about 6k. To me there are too many people trying to build show cars. All I want is a fast car that is mechanically sound and looks decent from 10 feet away. I am not sure why the vast majority can't be satisfied with that. I am starting small and when money and desire is there my Z will progress from there. I think people need start settings some realistic goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COZY Z COLE Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I love this topic and couldn't have stated it better...... A little history--- purchased my 75 280Z on e-bay for $5200 from TEXAS and had it transported to FAIRFIELD,CA. It had a tired sbc V-8 in it but I thought let's do something differant and add a blower and pro formance up grades...$3500. Let's add an alum. radiator and electric fan and dyno it. The engine gave out on the dyno run so let's put a real- build engine in and while we're at it rebuild the tranny and beef it up. So while the engine is out , let's clean the engine compartment up, redo the brakes, put a new steering rack in, increase the sway bar size, add some new guages on the outside and the inside, put new bushings in, add a new rear fuel pump and run new lines, add an adj. fuel regulator, change to MSD 6BTM system, add a mini starter and a custom strut bar!!! With some other odds and ends this added up to $14,000. I'm not crying and these are just the facts Another fact is I had 2 new AFRs sent back that didn't work, a wrongly factory wired MSD unit, and an electric fan wired wrong. Just because it's new doesn't guarantee any thing. Quality has slipped everywhere!!!! My 2 cents.......... LARRY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Hey Tim- That's My pile of crap! Don't Knock/NOK it. (And I doubt if it's coming in at under $3K). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I could build my car again and save at least 8-10K. I may not have a V8, but I wish I knew then what I know now... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LS1T Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I agree with everything stated above. There really has been a lot of newbies asking some "old" question but you have to remember our search function is down Now about the whole budget thing.... yeah I didnt have a budget. I saw darius's car and said "i have to make my car like that!" Now I didnt go blower because I didnt think 600+HP in a 3000# car was useful. So I just went with the LT1/T56. I have over $15,000 into my swap and the $$$ is still flowing out of my pocket and into parts! I dont really care how much I spend just as long as my car gets done and done the right way. Now I made a lot of mistakes along the way.....cut corners, bought wrong parts, made wrong parts, etc.....I am fixing everyting that I didtnt do right the first time though, yeah its costing me more $$$ but I would rather have an extremely nice car than an OK car! I want to show my car and having loose wires and crappy paint and wheels isnt an option so extra $$$ % time must be spent to ensure that everything is done right and with the right parts! Anyone who said they did the swap for $3000 is either lying or they have a pile of dung! I totally agree with the "you can have it good, cheap, or fast in any combination, but not all of them! " good + fast = not cheapgood +cheap = not fast fast + cheap = not good This should be in the begginers questions thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nic-Rebel450CA Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Amen! I admit that I have always been low for funding for my Z, but I did research for costs. I didnt just come here and ask a dozen questions like "what engine is the best" or something stupid like that. And what about the rediculous I gotta have more HP than anyone else questions? If someone puts 2500 HP into their Z, I guess I am gonna have to put 4000 in mine to make myself look more of a man. I think we have managed to attract the group of people that we all watch darting through traffic that think life is their own personal racing video game where they are invinsible and money is no object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeizm Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I have to agree aswell. And I also have learnt the hard way about spending more money than expected. EVEN on a basic engine upgrade on my L26. I bought a set of carbs that wouldnt work on my car (some fella ripped me off), and then I had to order all these other parts and finally order a brandnew set of HS6's. This was ment to cost me only $250AUD, now its over $1000AUD But hey, it fixes my problem with the car atm. And during this swap, I've also removed the head for the gasket and it was a good learning experence, but I guess I'm trying to say is even if its not an engine swap, just engine upgrades are expensive and time consuming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stjoetalon Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I choose cheap and fast. I have no need for a show car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silicone boy Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 A few months back, Grassroots Motorsports had an article about a sweet V8 Z. The owner went all out and spent about $60,000. True, he farmed out a lot of the work, while I have installed every nut and bolt in my car. Still, I thought he was crazy to spend that much. Now that I'm deep into the rebuild of my car (and I've strayed from the original plan, made some costly mistakes, etc), I can see how you can spend a ton on a swap. Definitely not for newbies. On the other hand, I was a total newbie when I started, having been a suspension person before. I had to learn how to build a motor, how to install it, how to do wiring, and now I'm learning how to put together a twin turbo setup. My point is, it's possible for a newbie to do a transplant, but we are not born with perfect knowledge, so mistakes will be made, and they are costly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 First let me say... some of these guys are making it sound worse than it is... You CAN build a decent looking, good running, fast hybrid Z for relatively cheap with a combination of luck, knowledge, patience and connections. I'm with jonzer on the realistic expectations thing. I thought I was the only guy on these boards preaching MODERATION (henceforth to be referred to as the m-word ) That is exactly what I've been aiming for with my Z. Speed and safety have been my first two concerns, looks being a distant third. Hence the $200 paint job . Anyways I've had enough trouble just getting to the 'mechanically sound' part to really even bother worrying about looks. To be honest and fair, these types of swaps (the 'realistic' ones) can be done fairly cheap. Had I held out and done a turbo swap the first time, instead of building up an N/A motor... had I not been one of the few to get totally screwed with my donor turbo engine and ended up needing to totally rebuild the thing and then have to replace just about every other part (starter, alternator, water pump) attached to the damn thing... stuff like that, I could have had the whole thing for roughly $5k or even less, this is including the cost of the car (I payed a whopping $250 for it), bringing the car 'up to spec' (replacing various hoses, wires, brakes and such... maybe $300 but only because I'm paying someone to do it), suspension (new shocks and springs, Eibachs and Tokicos, car handles really good with these, $600), interior (seats, doorpanels, center console, $400), Turbo ZX donor car ($800), complete labor for the swap ($1500... sux when you can't do this stuff yourself). Throw in the cost of a full motor rebuild ($800 with help of friends), and that puts it right over the $4k mark. Throw in my $200 paint job, which doesn't look bad at all, and you're almost at $5k on the dot. Doing the labor yourself? Back down to about $4k. However, there are still some things left that need to be done as well, I need new bushings, need to install my intercooler, need new weatherstripping, but worst case scenario when all is said and done, I think it would still reach the $5k mark (again, this is if I were doing all the work myself, which unfortunately I cannot, but it goes to show what can be done if YOU can, and also if I had not been lied to about the supposed "60k mile donor car" and the engine had actually been good as promised). These are the actual amounts I've spent, not an initial budget that later blew up. It CAN be done. However, I have spent much more than this just because of bad luck I've had and bad choices I've made. Therein lies the problem most people get into... either the "while I"m at it" syndrome, or unforseen problems coming up, or building iteration A, thinking it will be "enough" and then being unsatisfied with the performance, tearing it down and building iteration B, and so on. The whole thing started for me when I had my 100% bone stock 280zx and wanted a bit more power... went to buy some headers for it, and the sales guy pointed out that I had the low compression P90 head on there, so a header turned into needing another (rebuilt) N42 head, which turned into "well I took the head off and found out that the block was toast... gotta rebuild it", which ended up turning into a high compression 2.9L motor, which still wasn't fast enough, so it found a new home in a 400lb lighter '72 240... which still wasn't fast enough... etc. etc. etc. So first things first... be HONEST with yourself! Figure out how fast you really want it to be, how well you really want it to handle, brake, etc. then come here and see what people are doing to get that performance, and set your realistic goals. Start with a good car and a good motor (this part takes a little luck) and avoid the 'while I"m at it' stuff, and you can do it on the cheap and end up with good results. One other thing I don't get... don't obsess too much over being 'different'... at least, especially not if this is your first swap, not if you're not doing the work yourself and know what you're doing, not if you don't have a really well outfitted garage or friends who have all the tools you're gonna need. Newbs who come asking about doing RB swaps or Supra motor swaps... man you're just ASKING for trouble. Keep it simple... don't worry so much about being different. Look at your HP goals... you can get up to 350hp 'easily' out of a Chevy or L28 Turbo conversion (easily, not cheaply though!). Either one will get you there pretty easily. That is PLENTY of power in a 240, enough to hang with the fastest production cars on earth save the multi-hundred-thousand-dollar uber cars. Either one can be done relatively easily... the parts necessary for the chevy swap aren't hard to come by, and the knowledge base for either swap is huge... very unlikely you'd get stuck on either one. If you want to stay in budget and keep your peace of mind, keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 ... oh yea the guy may do all his own work, but has 20K tied up in tools to help him...nothing wrong with that..just something to consider when starting a large project. Some people walk into my shop/garage look at the tool cabinets, machine tools, lathe and welders and ask “what the hell is all this?†It’s a life support system for a V12Z. What they don’t see is a library full of books or a hard drive crammed full of any useful tid-bit that might be needed later. I don’t have the funds to send out work. I try to do it ALL my self. What I haven’t spent on the car has been spent on tools or knowledge. Ether way this is a costly hobby in the end. The cost of what I have in the car is way under 10K. But the shop is insured for 25K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBC Z Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 agree with the budget deal I built my first car in 91 when I was overseas. I had the car state side at my dads house. I mail ordered every part crate engine, performance trans, suspension, brakes conversion kit wheels tires seats interior. I came home on 2 week vacation and did the conversion had on the road. took it to the paint shop and picked it up 10 months later when I came home. I spent about 15k in total drove it for 5 years it had about 12k miles on it and sold it for 4800.00 to help build a house. So you dont do this for the economic feasability. you do it because of the creative aspects, do something a little diffterent and turned heads almost anywhere you go. On my current project I thought I could do this one cheaper if I shopped around didnt get in a big hurry. This car has big block chevy(hint this does not save you money big block are alot more expensive than small blocks.) I worked on every bit of my car from building the engine, custom built engine mount custom clutch, stripped, sanded, welded holes, rewired, primed ,painted, buffed, spent coutless hours surfing ebay for bargains pieced my car together with hundreds of hours of work countless ass chewing from my wife. And still spent almost 20k on it. But you know what I had a blast doing it. It is fast, fun and looks good too. Besides what are you going to do with all those carzy ideas bouncing around your head if you dont put it in something 3 dimensional. Heck I could build another 15 zs in different configurations that stuck in my head and that doesnt count all the other cars I like. What I have determined is life is to short and I dont have enough money, I better get back to work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Hey Loren: You could get a web sight up so we might see the rest of that awesome car. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaparral2f Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Being as the search function is down, I think that we should cut the newbies some slack on their "dumb" questions. I've been doing this since I was a teenager. even though it was long ago, I can can still remember that once I was a newbie, and if there had been a place that I could have gone to ask those questions, you can bet your a$$ I would have. Apparantly I am approaching this from a different place than most everyone else. I was looking for a project, and I enjoy the challange of putting together a car. It is a fact that budget is just a four letter word (adjusted for inflation) when you start a hybrid. I think that has been made abundantly clear to everyone that has asked. I bought my ZX off a used car lot to replace a totaled Celica. I drove it for two years, rebuilt the engine, then drove it for another year. When the car was old enough to get around the smog laws, I found a dead 350 and a 350th for $125. I've put about $3500 into the engine,(Machine work, Head work, intake, Mag and headers etc.) I rebuilt the tranny myself bought the rebuild kit and a new converter for less than $100. (that is the part about having good connections) The only things I intend to farm out are the exhaust and the paint. I fabbed everything else with my own chubby little hands. Just my 2 cents. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBC Z Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 hey I agree that we all have to start somewhere. I wished I had some of this info available when I did my first car It would have saved me from making alot of mistakes. Just having people to ask for help is a great asset, believe me I gather all the info I can from whoever I can when I start a new project. And sometimes you just have to use your own noggin because no body else has the answer you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest goldraven Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I was a newbie when i started this project...i still consider myself to be a newbie...but im slowing going through this project learning much more than i could have ever immagined. If it wasnt for everyone else's patience here with my questions i wouldn't have been able to do this swap. True, it is costing me alot of money for being 19. But i have no problem putting money into this project because even though i havn't gotten a running car out of it yet...the knowledge i have gained is invaluable. I guess what i'm saying is, everyone has to be a newbie sometimes...i feel honored being able to give people information on what i have experienced with the project. I think it is quite arrogant of you guys to complain about newbies asking questions. This site is geared towards helping people for this swap... not helping people who already have a good idea on how it is done. No one is forcing you to respond to the questions like "what is the best engine for the swap?" or "which car is the best for the swap?" just my 2cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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