cyrus Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Run away train. I ran sac drag racing last wednesday and reached trap speeds of 12.1@122mph and I always had to use the third turn out. I Intend to use this car for some track days too. So I realize the my brakes may need improvement. I want so brakes that are so good I never need to upgrade them. So I searched forever and I can always find someone who thinks some brakes package is good, but inveibably someone else badmouths the brakes and says they are not good. I know johnc likes stock. MM package looks great but the corvette and mustang monkeys complain about them (granted their whales, I mean cars are heavier). I have heard wilwood pump air into themselves. So after all this searching I seem to know less than when I started. Does anyone have any high speed, high powered brake experience, that can reccomend a aggressive brake package to me that they have personnal put to track use. I am afraid to even post this. (hiding behind my flame shield) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 there is always a parachute Sorry...couldn't resist. I have a set of wilwood 4 pistons and 11.25" x 1.25" vented disks. I haven't had to do any very high speed stops, but at normal highway speed, stomping on the anchors will pull the sphincter shut! Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Poly Zmanaustin Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Hi cyrus, I too have your same concerns. I don't want to start any bleeding hearts that love the stock brakes. I have done track events with the stock brakes before with high temp pads and bled them in between sesssions. For the street the stock brakes are fine. With that said IMO they are not something I feel comfortable on the track for a number of reasons I will leave out. Okay, I have tried the Wilwoods and I really like them with the exception of limited pad choices and in my experience I seemed to always get something in the pads that lessoned their performance. I have not tried MM's package so I won't even speculate. I am sticking to only ones I have physically touched the parts and driven and seen long term results on. No speculation. The best brakes on the Z cars (I am only referring to 240Z application) I have personally tried and they were not on my car were the front and rear "Big Reds" from Porsche on a fabbed application by Greg Scott of Scott Performance in Santa Clara, CA. I am not endorsiing this product, only giving feedback. I am sure these are god awful expensive. The kit was front and rear, had custom hats and uses the stock Porsche master. Again, not endorsing just talking here. What I did like is the fact it was complete. If and when I purchase brakes for my car there are elements in this kit I believe are very good. I like the fact that the master and 4 calipers were taken as a complete set up. The modulation was excellent. The thing many people may not care about that I really like about a good setup is no maintenance. The track cars with this setup go from street to track then back to street with absolutely nothing in between and barely any wear. I would like a setup that is balanced and has great modulation. I really would like to use the brakes off the Z32. These I personally have not driven on a 240Z (only on Z32's), but have been exposed to by some of my track buddies that had them on their 240Zs. The consensus was that the brakes were great on the street, but were not a great track appliation. The reason I was given was no one really liked the modulation and commented not enough feel to them. Okay, I think this could be a great set up that would be inexpensive and effective. I believe the trick is to find the right master to give the right feel when modulating the brakes. The rest of the components are great with plenty around. I would like to hear from anyone who has solved this problem or can confirm on way or another if/how it can be solved. Good Luck, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARZ_ Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 Other than my own very limited track days, I think I can vouch for the Willwood brake setup. Willwoods dont pump air into themselves, you just need to know how to bleed them properly. I drove a round for a day or two until I got mine sorted (all the air) out. They have 2 bleeders per caliper and people are not patient enough to bleed the same corner 5 times. You need to do it slowly. I have watched Clifton do repeated 140+ mph down to 45-50 mph. Stompin on the binders while road racin once every 60 seconds. He is running willwoods same as me, we each have a set of old AZ Z car willwood brakes one one car and a set of the new 5 lug kit willwood brakes on our Supra turbo powered Z cars. Not only do they work awesome Dave at AZ Z car told me that he has only sold 1 rebuild kit "EVER" and thats because one of his customers did a full lap with his line lock partially engaged and it smoked the fluid and everything, not sure if that guy bought pads too but it would be a safe bet. Also Dave told me that after selling Willwoods for almost 22 years that he has sold approximately 1 replacement set of pads per year and that didnt start until the 5th or 6 year. When you see the thickness of the pads you will know why. Heres a shot of my 5 lug rear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted May 13, 2005 Author Share Posted May 13, 2005 I looks like that setup spaces the rear wheels out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-ManQ45 Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 I personally will go with the MM kit for using stock Cobra brakes on my V8 Z project, along with their kit for 240SX rear calipers. I want to use street brakes for reliability/dust covers. With 400 lbs less to stop this should be a radical improvement over the stock setup. Of course this is for an autoX type of car. For drag racing, getting some good pads on it should be all you need - you aren't doing repeated stops/braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Poly Zmanaustin Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 cyrus, I think the Wilwoods are great. I would second 2fiddyz too. I wouldn't be worried about air pumping into themselves. Brad-ManQ45 commented on what my preferences were: reliability, dust covers, pad choices. The Wilwoods don't fail, I just didn't like that they don't have the dust seals and that you have to swap pads from street and track and that the track pads weren't problem free. Brad-ManQ45, I think your setup will work great for your application. I would argue if you are doing mostly auto-x your new setup is overkill, but look who's taking I want total overkill myself and no maintenance. Actually since the early comments I think Terry O. (aka Blue oval) has a very interesting application on his car. If you check out his site his brakes use OEM parts easy to find and has dust seals and according to him a good feel. Terry if you chime in on this one I would like to know if your setup requires much maintenance. Are you swapping pads from street and track? I think you were doing a lot of road racing which is my application specific interest. Maybe I am just too lazy. I just hate having to swap out pads, bleed the system and have to worry about the basics so much. I want my cake and to eat it too, yet I don't want to have to pay a fortune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hat1324 Posted May 14, 2005 Share Posted May 14, 2005 Im looking into the brakes as well.. Id like to go with a willwood 13" kit but pricing seams to be weird.. the willwood kit for a mustang 5lug is 795, yet I cant get a price lower then 1200 for the SAME kit in the Z. I also looked into the cobra brakes, but Id prefere the wilwoods up front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 So I realize the my brakes may need improvement. Your first step should be to get your stock brakes working properly. I know johnc likes stock. For a street, drag racing, autocross, and occaisional track day use you really can't beat them for the price, light weight, balance, and effectiveness. MM package looks great but the corvette and mustang monkeys complain about them (granted their whales, I mean cars are heavier). EVERY car owner that takes their car on a race track complains about their brakes. And most car owners do exactly two things about the problem: 1) nothing and keep complaining, 2) whip out the checkbook and upgrade. I have heard wilwood pump air into themselves. BS. Does anyone have any high speed, high powered brake experience, that can reccomend a aggressive brake package to me that they have personnal put to track use. Yup, almost 7 years of experience in a 240Z. The most important thing in any brake setup is balance. Getting the rear brakes to do as much as possible under hard braking without locking up before the fronts is the key to an effective brake system. Balance, balance, balance. I would focus on that one point in ALL of my discussions with any brake upgrade vendor. FYI... I couldn't find a complete brake package (Back in 1999) that would give me the balance I wanted. I had to mix and match parts and throw out the brake booster and Nissan master cylinders in favor of dual Tiltons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Id like to go with a willwood 13" kit but pricing seams to be weird.. the willwood kit for a mustang 5lug is 795, yet I cant get a price lower then 1200 for the SAME kit in the Z. The pricing makes perfect sense to me. There are how many gajillion Mustangs out there? How many Zs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 The most important thing in any brake setup is balance. Getting the rear brakes to do as much as possible under hard braking without locking up before the fronts is the key to an effective brake system. Balance, balance, balance. Glad you emphasized this. I found that the "industry" standard of balance was way too conservative in that the rears can accept more fluid pressure than was sent out by the factory. I was quite surprised by how much more pressure I could get away with, to attain a "balanced" system. The improvement in braking was just as surprising as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Poly Zmanaustin Posted May 15, 2005 Share Posted May 15, 2005 Hey Terry, I like your setup very much. I see so many setups I like that are incredibly expensive and overkill that I keep thinking there has to be a better way. I noticed you are running a 15/16 master. What pads are you running for street and track? How much maintenance does your setup require? The only thing that scares me about your setup is welding to the strut assembly. Is there anything special you need to do for the strength of that weld to be completely safe? My comment is not questioning what you did, but rather questioning if I wanted to do it what are your tips to make sure its completely safe? Or is it no big deal to weld to that location? Also, I was surprised you changed location of the rotor to behind the hub (OEM location). Was there more work/problems associated with putting the rotor in front of the hub? I thought it would be the same amount of work; is this just a preference or did I miss something? Always appreciate your comments. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hat1324 Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 The pricing makes perfect sense to me. There are how many gajillion Mustangs out there? How many Zs? I guess, but from what I can see, the mounting brackets and the size of the braided lines seam to be the only difference, both of witch come with both kits. One allthough comes with rotor/hubs with bearings and a 13 inch rotor. superlite caliper.. but the AZC seams to be a dynalite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas28O Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Brakes where the best upgrade that I ever did. I put on Wilwood 13" 6 piston brakes. When I was running at Sac I was able to make the 1st turn off every time, this was at 125mph trap speed. good luck on your upgrade.. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 One allthough comes with rotor/hubs with bearings and a 13 inch rotor. superlite caliper.. but the AZC seams to be a dynalite. AZC Z kit fronts are Superlites, the rears are dynalites. You may have been looking at the SX kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I guess, but from what I can see, the mounting brackets and the size of the braided lines seam to be the only difference, both of witch come with both kits. OK, Econ 101. Griggs Performance calls Willwood and orders 500 calipers. Modern Motorsports calls Willwood and orders 4 calipers. Who do you think will get the better price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JAMIE T Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 oh me! oh me! oh me! Can I answer that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hat1324 Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 im talking precision brake company, http://www.magnumforce.com, and other BRAKE KIT COMPANYS.. im wondering if it would be cheaper to go with a kit for a 5lug mustang(same bolt pattern) and get the mounting hardware from AZC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Terry, Looking at your picture I noticed something... Check to be sure, but you'll most likely need to space your rear anti-roll bar back about 1/2". The ST rear mounts will bind the rear suspension if the pillow blocks are not moved back a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Is there anything special you need to do for the strength of that weld to be completely safe? The welding I did to the front strut was pretty straight forward. Datsun used a good quality steel in this area (I was so used to parts like this on American cars being cast iron that I was afraid to weld it) and welding it was very easy. Typical, good penetration, welding is all that is needed. Also, I was surprised you changed location of the rotor to behind the hub (OEM location). Was there more work/problems associated with putting the rotor in front of the hub? Not sure what you are asking. This Supra set-up was put onto the car after the car was retired for street duty. I'm always screwing around for something to change on the car, and this was one of those things. I've recently even put a Cobra 13" rotor on a ZX hub that I was going to try, but these Supra rotors have only hit their thermal limits a couple of times since I've had them (no fad, but the pads were gassing). So I figured, why add a bunch more mass when these do fine for me now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.