violacleff Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Well, in the qest of trying to achieve big power, reliably, I am starting to understand the plight of the V8'ers more and more. That being said, I am already in too deep. I am a novice at tuning (actually I know nothing about it but would like to learn.) I am currently running a 7psi wg spring, and have not yet purchased a boost controller. I want to save up and get the E-boost2 which is a gauge and controller in one. In the meanwhile, though I want to know that I am driving on safe levels. buying a WB02 would be pointless for me at this point because I have no idea how they work, or how to tune a stand-alone. Forgive my ignorance but the purchase would not be justified unless you were trying to tune on the street am I wrong? My thoughts were, perhaps I should take my car to a tuner, and put the money into professional dyno time, and when its set, leave it alone. My question concerning boost and tuning is, if the car is tuned at 7psi, is it completely different then when running higher boost so that the car has to be running that certain amount of boost when being tuned? or does the map follow a linear/mathematical direction that accounts for the changes in boost pressure? If need be, I can let the car sit until I've saved up the $1500 or so to get a WB, Boost controller, boost gauge, and dyno time. My once reliable na daily driver has turned into a sitting money pit, but I've come to accept that. Gonna get another car early next year. BTW, anyone know of some resources I can start with to learn the basics of tuning? The haltech manual is greek to me. I need a "tuning for extreme dummies" type of book/articles to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapiper Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Actually, start lurking on the MegaSquirt forum and any other forums that specialize in EFI, maybe even the Haltech site. The MS is so basic that you can learn alot. If your EFI is map based, you tune to your vol effy curve based on a target AFR and compare to actual from WB AFR, such as LM-1 ($350). Set up target spreadsheet with suitable number of cells, eg 16 Load (kPA, psia) X 16 RPM. Just begin tune by monitoring AFR while driving to get a feel to where you can make improvements in drivability and performance, then later dyno tune to optimize. Same for timing. More power from timing than AFR. Be conservative. Get the LM-3 ($250) to datalog and study sessions later in comfort and safety of your garage. Get the XD-1 AFR gauge for readout capability, but much slower response that available on datalog. I prefer the hands on approach, alternatively you can take the EFI University course. Or just hang with those who know. Maybe your local dynoshop will let you lurk. All you really need is the desire to learn and take some measurements. Don't be intimidated at the start and soon you will be comparing techniques like a pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo2001 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HaltechSupport/ Most helpful. Eastest way to go about it is to get a base map from someone and start from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 The Haltech should be a dyno tune and forget job, assuming it is an ignition and fuel ECU with the usual sensors already fitted. Unless you change a relevant engine component, such as injectors, it should not require further tuning for a long time. That is the case with my MoTec anyway, having a dyno man who really knows the ECU and what he is doing is essential. In the US there seems to be a lot of DIY on this sort of stuff, personally I don't want to risk an expensive high boost turbo engine through an easy to make tuning mistake when there is a dyno pro who can do it at a reasonable price, it should not take more than an hour or two. Another spinoff is great fuel economy, a badly tuned ECU can be a fuel thief. My MoTec instruction book is very good on the basics, their website may be just as good, I haven't had to go there to have a look in years though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Hey Violacleff! you and I are in similar situations with one distinct difference...your car is running! What I plan on doing is setting up two different maps in the haltech with two different boost levels. the E6X can control boost with the addition of a 80$ boost control solenoid...heck of alot cheaper than the Eboost. check out page 59 of the E6X manual, its a basic explanation of dual maps, all you need to do is ground out the green "Aux.in" wire through a toggle switch. although I would like to just take it somewhere to be tuned, im going to go ahead and purchase a laptop and WB setup so that I can really learn how to do this, plus when and if i make any changes to the engine I can tune it myself instead of having to schedule an appointment with someone. its a bit overwhelming to me seeing as how this will be my first standalone system and tuning experience but its not rocket-science...just time consuming. you need to get a laptop and send me your map so i can start mine up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violacleff Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Haltech can controll boost for $80? This is news to me. I would def. go that route. I need to further investigate this. I would too like to learn, but I don't want to practice on this motor since it is so costly. I will try and watch what whats going on when someone else is tuning, and learn. I'm pretty good with computer stuff. As soon as I get a laptop, I will send it too you. 260det, I'm glad you mentioned the time. I was told it would take 3 hours at $200 an hour from one tuner. I need to start looking for other dyno shops to see what they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 here she is: http://haltech.com/boost_ctrl_soln.htm there are several companies that offer something similar... 200$ an hour at 3 hours?!!!! crap thats good chunk of change..but if the person knows what he/she is doing than maybe its worth it...as was mentioned earlier...once its tuned it tuned...unless you upgrade or change parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 ........................... 260det' date=' I'm glad you mentioned the time. I was told it would take 3 hours at $200 an hour from one tuner. I need to start looking for other dyno shops to see what they have.[/quote'] What is absolutely essential is that the dyno man is familiar with your make of ECU, and, everything is connected up and working so he is not delayed by having to fix things. Can't emphasise that enough, its crucial. A dyno tune is essential because the engine can be loaded up on the dyno, you may be able to get the engine running at home but you cannot replicate the engine working hard under various loads at various RPM. Well, you can have someone sitting in the passenger seat with a laptop while you drive around the place.................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Data log function and a hill. Works a treat. Need some long arse hills for 4th gear runs though. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 'Hills' where you can load it up at 7000 RPM in fourth gear Dave, I'd like to see that Do like the sound of a good engine screaming on a floor dyno, the back wheels a blur, a heat haze out the back, must admit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Well thats the high side of 200 so wind is providing quite enough load. Still pulling at close to 0.3g according to my datalog calculations though. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violacleff Posted December 20, 2005 Author Share Posted December 20, 2005 Well been doing some internet research, and it seems a lot of people are saying the haltech boost controller is junk. The E-boost2 is going for $450 on ebay which is decent imo since a greddy boost gauge is about $180 and the cheapes EBC is about $350-$400. Any of you aussie's heard any reviews good or bad on the e-boost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM-EXC Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I would just go with a manual boost controller, and $180 for a gauge is rediculous. For my gauge and MBC it cost a total of about $90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 EBC and manual boost control (I assume you mean bleed valves) are barely comparable. EBC can be configured to hold the gate shut (reducing boost threshold and lag) and is a true control system. Manual control is well.. crap. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violacleff Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Yeah, I'm not really feeling the grainger or $25 ebay stuff. The good ones run $200+ so for an extra 100 you can have an ebc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 First let me say that there is nothing wrong with a grainger mbc. If you take the time to adjust it and play a bit it should work very well. As far as tuning here's my take. A friend and I are working on opening a shop and we had a talk with a Dyno Dynamics rep recently. This guy charges near $1000 a tune and does mostly higher end stuff. He was nice enough to talk tuning with us for a bit. After our talk I realized how much can be gained by dyno tuning with a good dyno and a good tuner. Theres simply no way you can get the quality of tune by playing around on the street. Consider this. Each engine like a particular AFR for best power. My VG30 might like 12.5 while an L28 may like 12.0. On a good load dyno you can hold the ecu in each load/rpm cell and modify the fuel table until the engine reaches its highest output. I dont know how anyone can hope to do that by doing runs down the road using a butt dyno. The same goes for timing. A few degrees of timing can make big difference in power and also safety. You cant possibly hope to find your ideal ignition timing on the road. A few degrees too much and you lose power and start detonating. Too little timing and your lose power and have higher egts. It all comes down to having an accurate way of measuring changes in a controlled environment. You can't do that with any butt dyno. In the end all you will do is spend a lot of time and money to get a tune that can cause damage to your engine and has lots of room for improvement. My suggestion is this. Get a boost controller installed and make sure your engine is in good running order. Once you are comfident that your engine is up to producing the power you want then you are ready to get it tuned. Find yourself a shop that has a good LOAD dyno. If the dyno can't steadily hold your car at X rpm, under X boost, and tell you the current power output you need to go elsewhere. If the shop doesnt have someone who knows how to tune your ecu then find someone that is willing to go to the shop to do it. Once your VE is straight and your actual AFR matches the fuel map the tuner should go through each individual cell of your ecu and tune the fuel and ignition for that particular rpm and load. Doing it on the dyno ensures that each cell is accurately tuned and that even the cells you wouldnt normally hit on the road are tuned incase you do hit them at any point. If you have the tuner do this all the way up to whatever your max boost is you should end up with the best tune you could possibly have. It might cost you a bit but I think the gains would be worth it. Anyway...I'm losing my train of thought. I think you get my point. Get the dyno tune done right and you'll be happier. Just make sure you go to someplace with a good load dyno. Inertia dynos just dont cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapiper Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Motor will meltdown if attempting to tune each cell on boost, or it will take a very long time, since you will have to wait for motor to cool. We tuned the 100 kPA cells up to 6500 RPM and coolant spiked to 220F and caused coolant weepage, resulting in replacing head gasket, so watch out, take care, beware. Make sure your shop has a really big fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re engine cooling, consider also the gearbox and diff where they are not getting the airflow they normally would. The dyno place I go to has two fans and even then he takes a break after 10 minutes or so and does something else for a while. I avoid summer tunes too if possible but then its gets effing hot here. On dyno time, selecting a ECU on price can be counter productive as far as saving money goes. MoTec for example are designed to be quick and easy to tune, it does not take much extra dyno time to wipe out any savings on a cheapie. Plus the other cost related things I mentioned before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violacleff Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 I actually went haltech over other options because it was so popular and figured everyone would know how to tune it easily. Looks like the nearest dyno knows only AEM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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