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Smoothness of BMW V12

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Another update on cams & valves; I've found (perhaps) a better set of cams and roller valve train from a wellknown M70 builder in NC. Specs are:

 

Duration: 245 intake / 255 exhaust

Valve lift: 11.5mm

Lobe centers: 110 degrees

 

The cams are custom built; the roller components and the valves themselves are out of the M73 engine and the springs and titanium retainers are high performance aftermarket items.

 

Since the cams are built for each application, duration and lift can probably be whatever the user wants, as can the peak power point.

 

These cams and this valve train are designed to make power through 7500 rpm without float. Pricing for the whole thing will probably be between $6200-$6500, with the cams representing about half of that.

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Are ya talking about Henry? His cams do require machining a notch out of the pistons. I just can't stand the prices people want for aftermarket cams for the 12. :(

I don't mind spending money for something but $6500 is a lotta money for two cams and some off the shelf valves and springs.

Chelle

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I hear ya Chelle and yes, it's Henry's setup I'm referring to. I think the cam prices are pretty dear, but the rest of it isn't that bad, considering those are all "installed" prices.

 

For my Supra motor, I have about the same amount of money in the Manley SS valves, springs and titanium retainers, which I bought at builder level prices.

 

I don't know that we'll ever get good cam prices because of the low volume. Maybe with a group buy......??

 

John

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Guest Mike

Why don't you guys get the profiles and seek quotes from other reputable cam makers? I'll bet just about anyone can beat the tar out of those prices.

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Hey Chelle,

 

I just wanted to say that the work you did to that Z is just amazing.

 

I did however have a question about the firewall. Now i know that you pushed it back a good deal. But, would it be possible to push it back to a point where air conditioning and heating won't be eliminated? I want to move it back so that the engine sits behine the front struts as much as possible and I don't know if I'd be able to accomplish this without moving the firewall.

 

Thanks,

Josh

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Heya Chelle,

 

Absolutely beautiful car and swap!

 

I noticed that your oil filters are mounted upside down. Seems it would be AWFULLY messy to remove and replace those. How do you do it?

 

Seems that, since the mounting location was custom to begin with, it would have been better to mount them facing downward. Any particular reason you mounted them this way?

 

Once again though, the car is wonderful, has me drooling for sure!

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One option for hotter cams might be Paeco. They deal in just about anything foreign, and do custom welded/reground cams too. Prices seem to hover between $200-250 per cam for regrinds.

 

I've kept their catalog handy for 10yrs or so, and now you can DL a pdf. It has a section with all the various motors and approx HP ratings at their stage 1,2,3, etc build levels. It's good for seeing if a motor has any real performance potential.

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Guest P4Replica

Also, Fran Hall of Race Car Replicas does a gorgeous Ferrari P4 replica: http://race-car-replicas.com/RCRP4.html and you ought to be able to charm him into to stretching it a bit for a V12. After all, didn't Enzo himself once say, "It's not a REAL Ferrari unless it has a V12!" Fran's right there in Detroit, too, so not that far away from you.

 

 

Wow John,

XJ15 isn't really my type... But the P4 is definitely my type :) ....

 

And there's this one, Chelle:

 

http://www.baileyedwardscars.co.za/P4.HTML

 

The first (green) one built was BMW 750iL V-12 powered. :icon12:

 

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/7901/p4bbmikenelenginesmallsn2.jpg

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Guest TeamNissan
Also, Fran Hall of Race Car Replicas does a gorgeous Ferrari P4 replica: http://race-car-replicas.com/RCRP4.html and you ought to be able to charm him into to stretching it a bit for a V12. After all, didn't Enzo himself once say, "It's not a REAL Ferrari unless it has a V12!" Fran's right there in Detroit, too, so not that far away from you.

 

 

 

 

And there's this one, Chelle:

 

http://www.baileyedwardscars.co.za/P4.HTML

 

The first (green) one built was BMW 750iL V-12 powered. :icon12:

 

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/7901/p4bbmikenelenginesmallsn2.jpg

 

 

I think the P4 is everyones type :-P. Thats a gorgeous example right there too. Idk though if I did it, I would pring for an older ferrari v12 lol. Just to keep it genuin and all.....

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You know, for some unknown reason (unknown to me at least) I stopped checking up on this thread past page 2... For the love of God why?

 

I just caught up and MAN I'm loving it.

 

Keep up the awesome project chelle. Car looks great and sounds amazing for how fast it's going through plugs... :D Top notch work, which on this site says a lot imo.

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Sorry - I haven't been keeping up much either..

 

Thanx for the kind words and suggestions.

 

We have the Schrick cams, and on the dyno have 485hp at rear wheels. We have a spare engine and trying to decide how to build it over the winter to replace the one in the car now. Right now the spare is just being used as a template for a few brackets to try and clean up the front of the engine compartment and for making a custom intake. I was going to use it for another car but have been having a hard time settling on what to build. The P4 is nice, tho I know a guy with a real P4 so I don't know if I'll go that route. I had toyed with the idea of buying an old indycar chassis to put the engine in that and try and get it street legal, but it would be a lot of work for something that might only get driven to a few events a year. Also had thoughts of trying to make a Bugatti Veyron, Enzo, or Jag Xj220 replica. My roommate wants to do a Vector M12... in the mean time we're just trying to refine the GTO. We missed a bunch of chances to compete/show it this past year and are eager to make it out more this year.

 

KEO240, Personally I'd get rid of the stock A/C defroster setup unless you're going in shows that require originality. The after market A/C systems are better and more compact and work with the cheaper modern refrigerant. You don't need to recess the whole firewall anyway, just an area wide enough for whatever engine you're using (and don't forget to leave enough room or an access panel for getting out the plugs)

 

qwikrex - that's not a problem for two reasons. One, the filters have anti drainback lines built into them so whatever oil is in it woun't drain down, it only moves when the pump pushes it. and two the filters are higher than everything else. Any oil in the lines after the filter adapter runs down to either the tank or the engine

 

Thanx for the tip Sven!

 

P4Replica- I do love the quality of the RCR stuff, and it would be nice to work on something like that... their prices are good too - just have to decide what to build next.. hect - I'd love to use their chassis for any of the possible projects I listed above..or a P4... but if I do a P4 I'd prolly try and find a Ferrari engine like TeamNissan said.. :) even though the cost sucks..

 

thanx Gollum :)

 

 

Chelle

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Woohoo Chelle! 485 RWHP???? That's at least 75 RWHP higher than I would have guessed with stock displacement, and an unopened bottom end. You've put in the Schrick's, drysumped it, done some manifold tweaking and added the TEC3r, right? What about head mods, etc.?

 

Was that with NOS, race fuel, or anything other enhancers, or just premium pump gas? At what RPM did you see your peak torque and peak HP? This was on a DynoJet?

 

Congratulations & please post the dyno curves!!!

 

John

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Woohoo Chelle! 485 RWHP???? That's at least 75 RWHP higher than I would have guessed with stock displacement, and an unopened bottom end. You've put in the Schrick's, drysumped it, done some manifold tweaking and added the TEC3r, right? What about head mods, etc.?

 

Was that with NOS, race fuel, or anything other enhancers, or just premium pump gas? At what RPM did you see your peak torque and peak HP? This was on a DynoJet?

 

Congratulations & please post the dyno curves!!!

 

John

 

Hey guys,

The engine mods to this point in my eyes have been relatively small. Short block never apart. no mods to the combustion chambers, however the intake and exhaust ports were matched to the the gaskets and mildly cleaned up. I had been considering buying the Schrick cams but fortunately talked to the former owner of the car that the engine came from. He told me the engine had been freshened up and that it already had the Schrick cams and aftermarket chips. That saved me $1200, but I wish I had realized it had the chips done as we probably could have sold the computers for more money.

Intakes were opened up a little to accommodate larger throttle bodies. The back of the plenums was filled in to round out the turn air makes going into the back cylinders. The intakes were extrude honed.

Exhaust is practically open, mostly straight pipes with straight through mufflers.

Almost all the stock accessories are gone. No A/C compressor, PS pump, the big oil pump is gone from the sump and it has a tiny alternator. Cooling fan is electric. Distributors are gone. Inside the dry sump pan the windage tray has been extended to scrape excess oil off the front 1/3 of the crank like it already does on the back 2/3rds.

Fuel and ignition management is managed with the Tec3R. The Tec3R required a patch that the nice guys at Electromotive were great about creating once it was determined that was a glitch when using it on the V12. At first they insisted we had set something up wrong, however after they were able to duplicate the issue they engineered a patch quickly.

I'm probably forgetting something, but think that's about it on the engine mods. The throttles are I think 8 mm larger than stock and were polished up a little. Two K&N filters up in front of the radiator.

I saw the printout at the shop. I didn't bring home the printout partly because I wasn't thinking about it (was just happy to have it back after two weeks away from home) and as we are planning on having it back there on the dyno for some new adjustments due to changing the injectors to larger ones. I did e-mail the tech and ask for a scan of it. If I remember correctly he said the we were at 100% duty cycle on the injectors at 5600rpm, might have been 5000. I haven't been posting all the numbers everywhere yet for two reasons. One, there's more potential I hope after it goes back with the bigger injectors in the next couple weeks. Second and more importantly the numbers seem pretty high for what's been done - after we get new results with the new injectors I want to run it on another local Dyno that's a different type and see how the final numbers compare. I'd hate to be getting everyone's hopes up and end up finding out that someone misconfigured something (I mean I know they don't get a lot of V12's at the local speed shop) and this was a incorrect result.

That said, we have another engine that we are using as a template for a completely new intake with 12 throttle bodies we hope to have on the car this summer. After the intake is done maybe we'll send off the spare block to be sleeved. I still want a 4 valve engine, but can't seem to locate anyone selling one. I would like to raise compression, not sure how we'll end up doing it - I had even considered forced induction.. but won't likely make the decision for a while..

Chelle

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At least I wasn't the first to resurrect this old thread... I have e-mailed and PM'd chelle and another guy here that claims to have the M70 working with a typical RWD manual transmission. If anyone can give me some tips on how to mate up the M70 to a TKO or similar gearbox, I would be very appreciative.

 

Cheers, John

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At least I wasn't the first to resurrect this old thread... I have e-mailed and PM'd chelle and another guy here that claims to have the M70 working with a typical RWD manual transmission. If anyone can give me some tips on how to mate up the M70 to a TKO or similar gearbox, I would be very appreciative.

 

Cheers, John

 

Many of us who are using this engine are mating it to a transaxle box like the Porsche G50. Our projects are midengine based, like the Lambos, etc.

 

If this is of interest, you can contact Roger Brown @ CMS (California Motorsports) who are now offering a complete adaptor and flywheel setup to bolt this motor up to a Porsche G50. PM me if you want Roger's email addy.

 

HTH,

 

John

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Thanks, John. I'm well aware of the Porsche boxes and CMS adapter plates, but I'm trying to do a front-engine, rear-drive, like Chelle's car. Not mid-engine.

 

What are you building? I'm also in Houston -- West U area. Shoot me a PM if you want to show it off or need help turning a wrench some weekend. Or volunteer to help me shoehorn my M70 in if I ever get this project moving!

 

Cheers, John

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My motor is slated to go into a mid engine project (not a Lambo), but it's taking awhile to get built. It's an M70 which has an 850CSi crank & rods for more stroke, plus it's been overbored and sleeved to get a total of 6.0 litres instead of 5.0. The builder is currently trying to engineer an integrated oil pump / dry sump setup for it. Hopefully that'll be the last hurdle with the short block, and he can then turn his attention to the heads and the ITB induction setup. I'm probably at least a year away from beginning to build the car.

 

What are you putting your motor into?

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...Chelle used the manual from BMW, it was available in the 850...

 

Good luck finding that trans. I've looked everywhere, because it would certainly be the easiest (if not cheapest or strongest) solution. I've never owned a BMW V12 car before, but my E39 M5 ate clutches and transmissions like a fat guy at a buffet. I just can't find one.

 

It seems to me I found a thread that prior to the BMW trans, Chelle was running a T5 or something similar. I just want to know how she bolted it up. I could try to machine down the bellhousing from the auto trans and make an adapter plate, but I don't know how that's going to work with spacing, etc.

 

Thanks again for the tips, fellows...

 

Cheers, John

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hey guys,

sorry for slow replies, you know me - sometimes takes a while for me to reply.

I did make an adapter bellhousing to mate a T56 to the engine, then lucked into a new 850csi trans that was too good of deal to pass up. I can't remember if i sold the adapter or not, have to dig through garages. John said he wants to use a ford trans, can't remember the model (an not at my main computer to review his e-mail) T56 is used in some fords too I believe. Either way making an adapter isn't that big of a deal.

If your budget is big enough you could get Browell to make one too. They make some really nice ones for racing. There's a turbo supra at the shop I go to with a Browell bellhousing allowing them to use a Lenco, so they make lots of unusual ones out of Aluminum or steel

http://www.browellbellhousing.com/

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Hi John, yes, we used the automatic bellhousing as a template

 

The T56 was a natural as the tip of the input shaft where it fits into the back of the crankshaft was even the same size as the BMW/Getrag trans.

 

That said, if you don't sort it out by winter I may sell the Getrag as this winter I hope to make a lot of new changes to the car including a corvette 6 speed transaxle. You can buy the Getrag from BMW directly but it's about $6000

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John C,

Hey, i keep looking at the drysump you talked to me about and thinking I want in on that. It would allow me to drop the pump lower if they do it like the pictures as long as it's on the same side of the engine as the inlet for the oil into the engine (other side of the engine would be right in the way of the steering). You said price would be 10k for three. if it comes down to it I could pay for two and just save one for a future project.

Dropping the pump would give me more space to maybe put the alternator on that side too, closer to how it was originally

Let me know what you think.

Chelle

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