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RacerX

Smoothness of BMW V12

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Zerrari.. :) lol

 

Wow John - you know your stuff. This unit I have a a Tec3r, configured like the 6/12 would be. Typically the 6/12 would be sold to the Porsche guys with a dual plug 6 cyl. and yes, it fires 2 injectors at a time.. Motec is great but I had a hard time finding much info. Same with Haltec.. the "other" system I was talking about is straight out of Indy Racing and F1... EFI Technologies. They do have a system that has 12 injector outputs... it even has 2 Meg of storage for data logging. Also no cheap automotive connectors on it - it uses big military style locking connectors..

Here's some specs from their site:

 

* Sequential injection for 12 injectors

* 10 coil outputs

* 22 analog inputs

* 4 digital inputs (Hall or Magnetic)

* 4 switch inputs

* 4 Auxiliary control outputs l Dual internal NGK Lambda amplifiers

* 2 PWM Control (wastegates)

* Dual K-Type thermocouple inputs

* DC motor driver

* Dual Knock control

* 2 MB internal data logger

* 2 RS232 interfaces (115,200 kbaud)

* 1 current loop interface

 

 

 

* User-friendly software

* 3D fuel and spark maps

* All maps with adjustable breakpoints

* Programmable sensor calibrations

* Closed loop lambda control

* Unique self-mapping software

* Fuel and spark trims for each cylinder

* 3D injection phase map

* Sensor correction tables

* Closed loop boost control (5 maps)

* Shift without lift function

* Pit lane speed limiter

* ECU loadable with 2 calibrations

* Adjustable internal logger sample rates

 

OUTPUTS

 

* 12 injector drives

* 10 digital ignition outputs

* Wastegate controls (2)

* DC Motor

* 4 Auxiliary outputs

* Lambda heater control

* Digital tach output

* Data link to data logger

* Expansion box interface

 

 

DIGITAL INPUTS

 

* Engine speed

* Cam position

* Front wheel speed

* Rear wheel speed

* Beacon

* Switches (2)

 

ANALOG INPUTS

 

* Throttle, Battery, Airbox, ExBP, Air Temp, Water Temp, Oil Temp, G Box Temp, Fuel Press, Oil Press, Dual NGK, Beacon, Lateral G, ECU Temp, Vref, Mixture SW, Boost SW, Dual EGT, Dual Knock

 

Their site is here: http://www.efitechnology.com/index.html

 

The unit you want for our engines is the 4.0 race computer

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Chelle, those EFI Technologies boxes are the ultimate; I've been drooling over them for years, but I'll bet there wouldn't be much change left from $10K, once you get the box, harness, and all the ancillary stuff. I'm thinking (hoping) the MoTeC can be done for around half that.

 

At some point we have to ask ourselves, is a $10K EMS "REALLY" that much better than Webers? I have an AEM in my car now, and I'm forever fooling with it, just as I would be with Webers. Maybe it's just because it's there and we can.....

 

Here's MoTeC's page for their M800: http://www.motec.com/products/ecu/m800.htm

 

And a link to download the manual: http://www.motec.com/support/manuals/M400%20M600%20M800%20M880%20Manual%20A5.pdf

 

And finally, the page for the Expander modules:

http://www.motec.com/products/expansion/componen.htm

 

From what I understand, the base M800 comes with 8 injector and 6 coil outputs. Four of the 6 coil outputs get reconfigured as injectors, then the remaining 2 coil outputs drive two of these expanders, which then can drive up to 16 coils in full sequential mode. Looks good on paper doesn't it?

 

John

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I'll weigh that dummy motor when I get back next week. I'm really curious to see if one person can (wo)manhandle it :-)

 

John

 

The dummy motor without any innards weighs just a tad over 150 lbs, so it can be handled, but not very easily. It consists of block, heads, valve covers, front & rear timing covers, pans, and that's about it. Just enough to have a fairly accurate silhouette of the real motor.

 

No crank, pistons/rods, cams, valves, pulleys, flexplate, etc.

 

John

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Wow - heavier than I would have guessed... thanx John

 

Here's the most recent pic of the engine mods to our car.. hood is off again as we're trying to do fuel mapping.... tedious changing the plugs every couple hours trying to get it to run right... :(

Chelle

GTO-engine-Aug0004a.jpg

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Chelle I'm gonna have to take you up on the offer and come look at your cars when I head back up to Chicago in the comming weeks!!

 

Looks insanely awesome as ever :)

Mario

 

Thanx Mario- just let me know when you are in town - I'm in the far north burbs and you're welcome to come by and as long as it's not raining take a ride... word of warning - with right hand drive people sitting in the passenger seat kinda freak out a little not having a steering wheel and brake pedal in the left seat like they are used to

lol

I probably need to put a grab bar over there or something.

Chelle

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... hood is off again as we're trying to do fuel mapping.... tedious changing the plugs every couple hours trying to get it to run right... :(

Chelle

 

Chelle:

I don’t think fuel mapping is ever complete. You can get close to how you want it to run…but there will always be something else you can do to tune it more. I have been remapping mine since ’99. I had to start over after the cam change.

Your car looks good…enjoy it while the weather is warm.

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I'm trying to post a couple pics of the M70 motor mated to the G50 transaxle' date=' but am on a dodgy Internet connection. Chelle, I'll email them to you, and perhaps you can post them up.

 

John[/quote']

 

 

Here ya go John,

This going in the GT40?

 

 

DCP_1466.JPG

DCP_1467.JPG

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Yep, that's the plan. Your engine bay looks great; keep us posted on how the mapping exercise turns out. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning, or are you just tuning for driveability? I'm with Dot, I don't think mapping is ever finished. The laptop just becomes a constant companion/nuisance in the car :oops:

 

I will say that with the assistance of another very knowledgeable AEM/Supra owner, I'm finally very happy with the AEM setup in my Supra. It has as close to stock driveability as I want, starts & idles well, and the AFR's are very stable, but this is after 3 years of fooling with it. I'm sure the GT40 project won't be any different.

 

Now I just need to get the PWM controller for my electric fan working......

 

John

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Thanx Racerx, Cold Fusion and Glenn :)

Glenn, you are running a programmable ECU too? I'm thinking I need to switch the O2 sensor to a wideband with a controller, I REALLY wish the thing would stop fouling plugs.. and I wish someone would come out with more aggressive cams for the V12...

You're right though - summer is ending - we need to start just having fun with it..

 

John,

we're trying to get everything right for October to see if we can make the Run and Gun... try and give some of the Cobra's a run for their money.. I'm planning on the firstweekend in October getting a pro with a dyno to go over it. In the mean time I just want to get it running decent and do some more chassis tweaks..

Your project sounds fun :)

Keep us informed on your progress !

Chelle

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Chelle, with the money you're spending changing 12 plugs at a time every few hours, you could probably pay for a wideband pretty quickly :icon7:

 

I know I'd be lost trying to tune without mine; it's an FJO system and one of the better ones, but it's only good down to 10:1. For the V12 project I'm definitely going to get a setup that reads lower, although they're hard to find, and most of the wideband manufacturers don't publish this shortcoming. IIRC, NTK or NGK make one now that goes down to 8:1 or 8.5:1.

 

Have you looked at Schrick's cams? They're 264 degrees with 11mm of valve lift. Not exactly wild, but probably a fair bit more than stock. Unfortunately, I don't have the stock cam specs, do you?

 

I don't think regrinding the existing cams would be a good idea for this motor, given that the cam lubrication area is one of its weaknesses.

 

It would be interesting to find out if Jay has a source for hotter cams.

 

John

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I went ahead and added a wideband, now I kinda wish I had put one in all 4 downpipes :) might still do that tho :)

I wouldn't regrind the cams either - but will likly go for the Schricks ones.. I don't have the specs either. I haven't talked to Jay in a long time - he's a great guy tho and I know he was talking about putting out a line of go-fast parts for these... in the mean time I'll get what I can out of this engine and keep eyes peeled for a new 760 v12 :)

 

 

 

Here's some video files I took yesterday :)

http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running1.avi

http://members.core.com/~blonnde/new/GTO-running2.avi

 

 

 

please right click and save the links to view

Chelle

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I found the cam specs for the M70 motor, so here's a little comparison between stock and the Schrick cams:

 

Stock: 246 degrees 10.5mm valve lift

Schrick: 264 degrees 11.0mm valve lift

 

Probably not enough difference with the Schricks to give it a lopey idle, but it should breathe a lot better with the extra duration and lift.

 

John

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Hi Chelle:

Sorry for the delay. I am using an old Accel DFI unit. It was modern for its day but now seems so dated. The software works on dos. I have to keep a 486 laptop around to use the software. Mapping is all numbers anyway, but a graphic interface would be nice.

 

I was thinking your fuel issues might be O2 sensor related. Sensors can be bench tested with a volt meter and a propane torch. I have had problems with my sensor as a result of silicone contamination. It really sends them for a loop. Pun intended.

 

The Jag currently runs with reground cams from Iskendarian with out problems however direct cam oil lines are standard for this motor. It is interesting how noticeably the power band moved up the rev range with the different grind. I’m not sure that a cam change can make a fuel injected motor run lumpy as the fuel mix is so efficiently distributed. But I might be wrong.

 

I was curious what pipe size and mufflers you used to get that nice V12 sound from the back end?

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:) Hiya Glenn,

We'll probably go for the Schrick cams at some point unless someone comes up with a better set ..

we went with a AEM wideband controller/gauge.. think I'm gonna get another so we have one for each bank..

The exhaust uses the stock manifolds with 4 seperate stainless steel downpipes (1.75" ID) two on each side go into a 2.5" "Y" pipe that goes to a single glasspack on each, followed by a pair of Pacesetter resonator tips.. I had to modify the tips as they are on a "Y" pipe but where the two tips join the pipe gets really small. Because of that we cut the inlet off and welded our own to it

 

Here's one of the setup screens on our computer... the Tec3r is pretty kewl.. though I wish we had gone for one of the really high end systems.. This has a ton of features, I just want more :)

TEC3.jpg

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Sounds fun Kellhammer :)

FYI I decided that my 750i V12 BMW has had long enough - if no one buys it this weekend then monday morning I'm pulling the engine and junking the rest of it. If someone wants the whole car this weekend (having whole car gives you a bunch of parts you can sell as well as all the factory computers and everything) price this weekend is $1200... monday it gets broken up - this was my daily driver till the trunk and back seat got soaked.

Chelle

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That Kirkham Cobra that Chelle posted belongs to former Datsun SCCA racer and national champion Morris Clement. The aluminum bodies I believe are made in Poland by former aircraft craftsman.

Morris used to have a gutted out green 240Z he would bring to to Blackhawk Farms Raceway in South Beloit, IL. Six of us 240 drivers from WI would drive down to BFR to run aganist the IL Z group. Morris was always the one to beat but we never could. We had a lot of fun in those days.

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Steve,

Morris still holds quite a few records I believe, and he's a great guy too. He'll be down at Gateway raceway this coming week/weekend teaching classes on setting up your car for the track at the "run-n-gun" event for replica/specialty cars. We were going to enter the competition, but the car isn't ready for serious competition yet. We MAY drive down for a day or two just to hang out and see the cars and show ours.. don't know for sure though

 

Morris's car has a body made for/by Kirkham and a stainless chassis, with a full aluminum bellypan - his attention to detail is amazing. Everywhere you look are signs of things being carefully re-engineered, and it sounds like a beast too :)

Chelle

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