Look what i found, but is it an upgrade?

[Mikelly]

I think you guys are arguing different points here...

 

Gollum and Mr. Insane or both correct in the fact that it is still illegal if the swap isn't recorded and documented with the state, and approved at a ref station.

 

Just Jim's point is that (and I agree with this to a point) if you don't tell anyone at the DMV, who'se the wiser, because 99% of cops aren't going to hassle you unless you get pulled doing something illegal in the first place *(after all, it is a pre-75 car, right??), and then most of them don't clearly understand the Smog laws well enough to climb around the car looking for the egr valve off a 78 Chrysler 318 in your 72 Datsun Zcar.

 

Here's the rubb though... What happens when you get that one sharp cop? Or get reported by that neighbor that you piss off every morning when you fire it up at 5AM to go off to work???

 

Make your choice and build your car based on how much of the smog issues you want to deal with up front, or potentially deal with later at a ref station...

Kinda like going to Vegas. Play the odds and roll the dice...

 

Mike

[Gollum]

I agree mike, and it wasn't until jim's later posts I reconised he was more concerned with opinion than juidicial fact.

 

I'm not going to agrue, beucase I agree with his opinion to a point as well. To me it's all a matter of the attitude of local cops and how long you wanna dodge them.

 

Now to rudypoochris- I personally think you should just go with the EFI. Reasons being:

 

1) Better gas milage that's better regulated

 

2) Just as much power potential (or close enough to the same) with greater accuracy in multiple weather conditions.

 

3) More reliable. People who whant to argue otherwise are probly the same people that keep tools with them to fix "not-a-issue" problems while they're on the road.

 

4) Cleaner burning. Honestly, if I lived out in the middle of nowhere I wouldn't care as much, but It always comes back to this... Drive-thu's. Sitting there for 5-10 minutes even an EFI car without cats running rich starts to smell like crap, makes you dizzy, ect. A clean smelling vehicle is always nice for anytime you spend time around your vehicle idling away.

 

And I wouldn't worry about the year difference between the block and the EFI. You'd be hard pressed to find a smog ref to prove otherwise. Just say it's the year that the EFI came from. Everything else should be ok. Things they'll check: PCV, EGR, EVAP, and cats. They might also get picky about your gas tank. You'll need to find out if that year of mustang had any type of emission reducing tank.

 

But I'd personally worry about that later. There's lots of SBC S30 cars in the bay area that get away with it (for the most part) so an EFI 5.0 should be even lower under the radar.

[avrfan]

Some tips I have in minde are: get a license plate or logo somewhere visible on the car that says the year of your car like "cool 72 z" or "1972 240z" or that way the cop will know right away its a smog exempt car. That alone will probably eliminate him from caring about engine swaps and mods.

 

Other tip is call the BAR (California Bureau of Automtovie Repair 800-952-5210) and ask them about the laws and what you need to do to stay legal and avoid trouble. I recently called and you can talk straight on the line with a guy who knows this stuff inside and out and these guys sound like they have been working as referrees for a while or something because their engine and tech knowledge is amazing. The guy I spoke with was even giving me pointers on how to put the engine together right etc. They're some gear heads hired to work for the state. The number for the California. Referees is 800-622-7733.

[rudypoochris]

Thanks for the number! I rebuilt the 4150 and that is what is going on now. I have decided that if I go EFI it will most likely be a megasquirt setup with a custom intake manifold. The stock one is just to bulky, not worth it in my opinion.

[LLave]

A little note about the wonderful state of CA. My understanding is that the state of California charges automotive aftermarket companies a good deal of money to get their parts CARB legalized and in return the state opens up the California market to the company. But if the state did not require everyone to be use only CARB legal parts the good people down at Edelbrock might not shell out the cash to the state and we don’t want that. So in the end I think it is a business decision on the states part to enforce the CARB laws on all cars so that they can maximize their market, charge the aftermarket companies out the a$$, who in turn can pass the expense on to use, the consumer.

Environment be damned it’s about business...

Sorry I got a bit carried away

/end rant

[avrfan]

ya made me laugh with this response. he he he, i love government conspiracy theories. I'm quite a theorist myself and I profess alot too. i totally agree that ... government decision follows the wishes of those who pay the most not by the common voters. The environmental laws probably are about money. Nobody ever shows us where the money they collect goes either. As far as getting something CARB approved, yeah I think its expensive also same thing with getting stuff DOT approved, very expensive and complicated. I don't think they will CARB approve something that causes the emissions to rise above the legal limits for a given vehicle though. I think they simply test a car after the aftermarket product is installed and if the emissions are still in legal limit its ok. otherwise it gets rejected. Just my guess. honestly don't know a thing about the process but I just did a quick search of their website and this is what i found:

 

"Exempted parts are add-on or modified parts that have undergone an ARB engineering evaluation. If the part or modification is shown to not increase vehicle emissions, it is granted an exemption to emission control system anti-tampering laws. This exemption is called an Executive Order (EO) and allows the modification to be installed on specific emission controlled vehicles. Every Executive Order part or modification has an assigned number that can be verified by Smog Check stations, BAR Referee stations, or by the ARB."

 

Here is a good link if you wnat to read more:

 

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm

 

A little note about the wonderful state of CA. My understanding is that the state of California charges automotive aftermarket companies a good deal of money to get their parts CARB legalized and in return the state opens up the California market to the company. But if the state did not require everyone to be use only CARB legal parts the good people down at Edelbrock might not shell out the cash to the state and we don’t want that. So in the end I think it is a business decision on the states part to enforce the CARB laws on all cars so that they can maximize their market, charge the aftermarket companies out the a$$, who in turn can pass the expense on to use, the consumer.

Environment be damned it’s about business...

Sorry I got a bit carried away

/end rant

[avrfan]

I FOUND SOMETHING GOOD AT THE ARB SITE BUT IT ONLY APPLIES TO ENGINE SWAPS AND OLDER CARS - I CUT AND PASTE BELOW:

 

Engine Changes Engine changes are legal as long as the following requirements are met to ensure that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle:

• The engine must be the same year or newer than the vehicle.
  
• The engine must be from the same type of vehicle (passenger car, light-duty truck, heavy-duty truck, etc.) based on gross vehicle weight.
  
• If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine.
  
• All emissions control equipment must remain on the installed engine.

After an engine change, vehicles must first be inspected by a state referee station. The vehicle will be inspected to ensure that all the equipment required is in place, and vehicle will be emissions tested subject to the specifications of the installed engine. Exemptions for Uncontrolled Vehicles Vehicles that were manufactured before emission control regulations took effect are called uncontrolled vehicles. Aftermarket parts regulations and anti-tampering laws do not apply to these vehicles. Uncontrolled vehicles may have any aftermarket add-on or modified part installed as long as the vehicle can still meet the tailpipe emission standards for the year of the vehicle. Uncontrolled vehicles must retain any original or retrofit crankcase control (PCV) devices and NOx device required for the year of the vehicle. The following vehicles are considered uncontrolled vehicles:

• 1965 and Older : U.S. Manufactured California Certified Vehicles
  
  
• 1967 and Older: U.S. Manufactured Federally Certified Vehicles
  
  
• 1967 and Older: Foreign Manufactured Vehicles

For More Information To verify Executive Order numbers, or for questions about the replacement parts guidelines, please contact the California Air Resources Board Vehicle Hotline:

(800) 242-4450 California

[Gollum]

Not that I disrespect your post and all, because I'm glad you're out there learning about the laws, but this has all been pretty much covered in the BAR sticky.

 

Something that you have to read between the lines about there though, is that though "uncontrollable vehicles" can be modified, they still consider ANY modification to ANY smog system illegal, which is why they specifically mention NOx deviced.

 

In the end the laws are so vague that even state refs dispute what's legal. Example: Not all refs consider a fuel rail illegal, since it's not directly effecting how much air/fuel enters the car at all. Other refs view it as illegal because it's a modification to the air/fuel system, which in general is illegal. A good example is an adjustable FPR, though not exactly air/fuel quantity changing, it's deemed an illegal modification by all refs.

 

If you REALLY want to learn about this stuff I'd recommend somehow getting your hands on a real referee book. Maybe you can find one on ebay or something I don't know. But I'll guarantee you that with the size of that book there's no way all that information is publicly available online.

[avrfan]

ok, here we go, the thread is heatin up. so what is your point? that its too much trouble? The gist of the law is what you'll find in the bar sticky and on the air resources board websites I quoted above. Anyone seeking to modify or do engine swap within the legal bound and within their means should read that stuff and call the referee phone#'s posted earlier for question and answer. That will get you 99% there. Its far better than just to base your decisions on random opinions of people posting ideas all over the boards. Quoting, requoting, linking, posting links and phone numbers are direct way to help someone find the knowledge they need. Especially in this regard involving a govt agency and the laws. The rest is the roll of the dice but you're cool about it, they'll work with you to get it legal. If they say hey thats not right, ok, tell me what I can do to make it right. Easy as pie...

 

How about posting a link to that "sticky" it would save us all a bit of time looking it up. I sure couldn't find it. Found dozens of posts about smog issues. Couldn't tell which one was sticky or not.

 

p.s. don't be hatin on my posts.

 

Not that I disrespect your post and all, because I'm glad you're out there learning about the laws, but this has all been pretty much covered in the BAR sticky.

 

Something that you have to read between the lines about there though, is that though "uncontrollable vehicles" can be modified, they still consider ANY modification to ANY smog system illegal, which is why they specifically mention NOx deviced.

 

In the end the laws are so vague that even state refs dispute what's legal. Example: Not all refs consider a fuel rail illegal, since it's not directly effecting how much air/fuel enters the car at all. Other refs view it as illegal because it's a modification to the air/fuel system, which in general is illegal. A good example is an adjustable FPR, though not exactly air/fuel quantity changing, it's deemed an illegal modification by all refs.

 

If you REALLY want to learn about this stuff I'd recommend somehow getting your hands on a real referee book. Maybe you can find one on ebay or something I don't know. But I'll guarantee you that with the size of that book there's no way all that information is publicly available online.

[rudypoochris]

Thanks for the help avrfan. It is appreciated, but please be respectful and please do not contribute to "heating" up this post. If you had checked, this thread was last written in back in 07/2006. It has been dead since then.

[Gollum]

Wow, umm. Again, why did I start my post with "not that I disrespect your post at all..."

 

I was trying to carify the point of the copy/paste that YOU made. That just because there's different part laws for 65' and older vehicles doesn't mean that you can do what ever you want to them or with them.

 

And that sticky was REALLY hard to find:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=100533

(general discussion, very top).

 

And I'm sure any of the people that have been here a while can back up my "opinion" when it comes to CA smog issues. My "opinions" aren't actually opinions at all. They're truth learned from refs themselves. I've actually taught refs about a lot of engine swap things that they had no idea about. Do I know more than most refs? NO! But I'm just saying that ALL refs are different and won't make the same decisions. My recommendation IF a ref won't legalize your swap is A) find out why and IF you think it's bogus, go to a different ref.

 

I never meant any disrespect, I just wanted to add to the clarity of your post. Don't make it out to be more than it is. And this was never "heated" btw.

 

EDIT: Chris, made this post while you made yours, so none was directed at you buddy

[avrfan]

OK, THINGS COOLED OFF. YOU'RE COOLER THAN I THOUGHT. Maybe I over reacted too. I hear the famous words now... "Can we all just get along....?"... yes we can.

 

you probably know more than I but my source was directly from the ARB site so who could be more right than that?

 

Thanks for the link. It was hard to find though, where are the stickies posted anyway I though they were at the head of a sub category i.e.

HybridZ > Technical > V8 Z Forums > Ford V8Z Tech Board

 

would have a list of all threads under [Ford v8z tech board] and the stickies should be at the top of that list of threads right?

 

Thanks

[Gollum]

The stickys are kinda thrown out all over the place. You get used to it after a while and find security in their sense of randomness.

 

But you're new, AND local to me (i'm in richmond) so I'll let things slide for a while, no complaints here man. Just whatever you do... don't go and ask "how do I make a 300hp L28ET?". I don't now if you've gathered this, but people here are big on the search feature. You'd be amazed at what you can dig up.

[avrfan]

I'm new on this board but doesn't mean I'm new to the internet or cars in general. I have long standing memberships on various discussion boards dating back to 1995. I would say, I have ben actively participating on email lists, and newsgroups before even web based discussion boards became mainstream. Of course I will continue using search as recommended, I think that is how I found this thread. I think this thread was dead for over 6 months until I revived it by posting to the discussion. Typically, If a thread has no reponses it falls to the bottom of the list in the categories so anyone would have to use a search to find it or a lot of browsing.

 

Thanks for letting me slide. Given time, you will probably discover I have a lot to offer. I've been offered a job as an engine builder at a engine shop that specializes in datsun / nissan racing motors. However I'm just here for learning and sharing through discussion on interesting topics and thats it.

 

The stickys are kinda thrown out all over the place. You get used to it after a while and find security in their sense of randomness.

 

But you're new, AND local to me (i'm in richmond) so I'll let things slide for a while, no complaints here man. Just whatever you do... don't go and ask "how do I make a 300hp L28ET?". I don't now if you've gathered this, but people here are big on the search feature. You'd be amazed at what you can dig up.

[afbrian13]

I know its been said over and over, but i'm glad i live without that headache. I'm stationed in NE and think i'll just keep everything registered here even when i get orders lol I asked about smog when i got here at the dmv and they laughed and said whats that!!!

[zgeezer]

V8260: Don't even concern yourself with the smog issue and recording the engine change. Your car doesn't require a smog check anyway.The cops aren't going to care what is under the hood.

 

Gollum and Mr Insane: If you swapped the engines in your cars did you record this with the local BAR office?Wouldn't want any illegals running around.

 

Mr Insane: Why bother getting the engine swap "legalized" and then going home and yanking off the smog stuff? Kinda defeats the pupose,eh?

 

Gollum is right. The rules relating to engine swaps in California are byzantine by any standards. The cop on the street standing in front of your car asking you if he has your permission to look in your trunk or under your hood has more pure discretion to piss on your foot and in your pocketbook than most people ever imagine. Yes, if you own a 1971 Vega today and want to replace that DOHC 4 with a 69 302 Z-28, you better dress it as a 350/350 and whistle "dixie" at the referee station. Likewise, with my brother's 62 Falcon with a stroked 69 351W. Today, the Scarab swap would be illegal for a number of reasons: first b/c it was an earlier 327 Chevrolet into a later body and second none of the good stuff in that 327 carry a BAR exemption number.

 

The Gen III Chevy truck engine I'm installing in my 71Z is TOTALLY ILLEGAL because it is a truck engine. It doesn't make any difference how clean it is or that I've kept all the smog paraphenalia and installed a cat.. it is an illegal swap by definition. I'm still going to do it and I'll also install all the smog in working order. Why? Because the engine was cheap for one and because I'll be prepared to replace the truck engine with the same year LS1, when the cop comes to call. Finally, I don't expect to sell it soon.

 

What is the risk? If you are young, asian, black, hispanic and drive a lowrider, euro, or heavily riced anything you will be pulled over sometime. That cop will decide if your music is too loud [$1,000 fine and forfeiture of your stereo for second offence, in my neighborhood], if your Apexi is too loud or, maybe your car has too many red/blue lights or aluminum fittings under the hood with "TURBO" prominantly displayed on every body panel. You will get a "fix it ticket" that could ultimately bring you face to face with a referee.

 

If you are an old white geezer driving a clean quiet Z, you might walk away from the encounter with complements about the car, an 85mph speeding ticket, and a polite "have a nice day" for which the proper ritual response is "thank you, officer".

 

My brother, in overalls, would simply answer the question with: "Officer that is a 1985 Mustang engine in my 1962 Falcon. I bought it that way 30 years ago." , which would be just about the perfect answer. The politically incorrect response would be: "Officer that's a 2005 Cobra DOHC out of a Mustang, I just put in."

 

By the way, a few years ago Hot Rod Magazine ran a series, I think, of articles about smogging a Chevy big block swap into a 70'ish Chevelle. In their particular car, they could swap in a BB 454, but NOT a BB 427, although both were in production at the time. Why? Because a BB454 was offered as an option in the Chevelle for that year. Furthermore, I think they had to build a BB454 using an original 454 block for the appropiate year. They did the articles to highlight BAR exempt goodies. I recall their final advice was to run alcohol...not gas because only gasoline engines were subject to the new rules. A novel thought.

 

Police officers selectively enforce the vehicle code in California.... maybe, even, everywhere. Build the car you want, but understand when you build it the risks involved if it does not or can not meet California regulations relating to engine swaps.

 

g

[Gollum]

Build the car you want, but understand when you build it the risks involved if it does not or can not meet California regulations relating to engine swaps.

 

I just had to quote that becuase I think it was the best piece of smog advice I've ever seen. That should get put in my signature.

[avrfan]

Well, I totally loved your post and the description of cops wielding their power on any high profile california driver of non-white old geezer ethnicity. I mean, it pisses me off when I think about all the times I felt targeted and victimized by "the man" but at the same time, I have to laugh because i know its soooo true and also, I can see how we just ask for it. Turbo and high performance stickers all over the car, fancy exhaust tips sticking out from the back, you name it.

 

your brother telling the cops he bought a car 30 years ago with an 85 mustang engine in it might not be a good idea though, because a cop mightnotice that 1985 was 22 years ago, so I think if he said, I bought it that way 20 years ago would be better. Does that line really work though? I mean, doesn't dmv keep some kind of history on a car vin, I think if the cop checks, they can see when he took ownership.

 

I was recently told by somebody that police can actually see how many violations you have on your record and what they were and when. I had no idea and supposedly they profile you even further based on that. If they got you for speeding, and you say, I haven't had a speeding ticket in years, can you let me slide, with a warning but the cop already knows from running your license that you had 2 other speeding convictions in the past 3 years, he's going to know you're lying and definitely give you another. If this is the case, then they can probably see violations such as smog tampering, illegal engine swap violations too. So we probably won't get too many 2nd chances once were "in the system". Once you're in you can't get out!... scary. Stuff used to come off the dmv records automatically after a few years back in the 80's and then in the 90's the auto insurance companies had the law changed so stuff never comes off, but supposedly the insurance companies only look at the past 3-5 years however I was told that many insurance companies will pull a 10 year history anyways.

 

The cop on the street standing in front of your car asking you if he has your permission to look in your trunk or under your hood has more pure discretion to piss on your foot and in your pocketbook than most people ever imagine.

 

What is the risk? If you are young, asian, black, hispanic and drive a lowrider, euro, or heavily riced anything you will be pulled over sometime.

 

If you are an old white geezer driving a clean quiet Z, you might walk away from the encounter with complements about the car, an 85mph speeding ticket, and a polite "have a nice day" for which the proper ritual response is "thank you, officer".

 

My brother, in overalls, would simply answer the question with: "Officer that is a 1985 Mustang engine in my 1962 Falcon. I bought it that way 30 years ago." , which would be just about the perfect answer.

 

Police officers selectively enforce the vehicle code in California.... maybe, even, everywhere. Build the car you want, but understand when you build it the risks involved if it does not or can not meet California regulations relating to engine swaps.

 

g

[Gollum]

I once got off for running a red (though it was more orange, and I was stuck in the intersection becuase of people driving 5mph though the intersection) because the cop asked me "have you ever gotten a ticket?" to wich I replied no, though I thought about asking her for her phone #...

 

Short story is she checks my history, and says that I can get off with a warning since my record was clean.

 

I'm not sure what exact information they have access to but I know they can pull up a decent amount on any car just off of license plate and I'm 100% posotive they can get the supposed VIN number collating to that license. If they can get that much though I'm sure there's other things they have access to, I'd imagine anything in the DMV d-base.

[Just Jim]

I FOUND SOMETHING GOOD AT THE ARB SITE BUT IT ONLY APPLIES TO ENGINE SWAPS AND OLDER CARS - I CUT AND PASTE BELOW:

 

Engine Changes Engine changes are legal as long as the following requirements are met to ensure that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle:

• The engine must be the same year or newer than the vehicle.
  
• The engine must be from the same type of vehicle (passenger car, light-duty truck, heavy-duty truck, etc.) based on gross vehicle weight.
  
• If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine.
  
• All emissions control equipment must remain on the installed engine.

After an engine change, vehicles must first be inspected by a state referee station. The vehicle will be inspected to ensure that all the equipment required is in place, and vehicle will be emissions tested subject to the specifications of the installed engine. Exemptions for Uncontrolled Vehicles Vehicles that were manufactured before emission control regulations took effect are called uncontrolled vehicles. Aftermarket parts regulations and anti-tampering laws do not apply to these vehicles. Uncontrolled vehicles may have any aftermarket add-on or modified part installed as long as the vehicle can still meet the tailpipe emission standards for the year of the vehicle. Uncontrolled vehicles must retain any original or retrofit crankcase control (PCV) devices and NOx device required for the year of the vehicle. The following vehicles are considered uncontrolled vehicles:

• 1965 and Older : U.S. Manufactured California Certified Vehicles
  
  
• 1967 and Older: U.S. Manufactured Federally Certified Vehicles
  
  
• 1967 and Older: Foreign Manufactured Vehicles

For More Information To verify Executive Order numbers, or for questions about the replacement parts guidelines, please contact the California Air Resources Board Vehicle Hotline:

(800) 242-4450 California

 

 

zgeerzers example of his brothers '62 Falcon with a 351W got my attention because I have one. Per the quoted CARB info a '65 and older vehicle is considered an "uncontrolled vehicle" and is exempt from regulations except if the original car had a PVC then it still must have one. So the 351 in my '62 Falcon is legal because it has a PVC valve .

 

But the other stated laws are quite contradictory for a controlled vehicle. If the engine must be of the same "family type" then just replacing a 6 cylinder with a V8 wouldn't be legal to begin with.

 

I still stand by my original post on this matter. If a car is '75 or older smog checks aren't required so feel free to swap whatever engine you like into your pre '76 Z and not worry about it. I sure won't but then I'm an old geezer myself.