azcarbum Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thanks for the good words... Coming from you that means something. I didn't take anything you said as offensive. I just wanted everyone to know all of peices to the puzzle. I originally went with a standard rod end as well. But I felt that if I were to sell them, I wouldn't want to put out anything short of maximum strength when it comes to parts. That for saftey, and reliability. I beleive people will be very pleased at what they hold in thier hands when recieving them. **PS: I'm currenlty changing my design for the TC rods. When completed, they will be well improved..... I think you'll like them. B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I don't see on car adjustment of front track really being a great benift. On car caster would be nice but these are just a LCA if they including an adjustable TC rod it would be complete IMO. A rear control arm being on car adjustable is much more important I think, so you can easliy adjust toe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Honestly, Unless you're drivng a car to the track, adjusting it, driving it at the track, and then adjusting it back to drive home, none of it is needed beyond getting around the inability of the stock suspension adjustments. This was a huge argument I had with my former partner and Pete P. when we were designing the arms I sold... A non-oncar adjustable unit would be just fine. My track car will employ adjustable control arms and TC rods, along with camber plates... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I agree..... Caster is the true key to the early Z's steering performance.. But in order to get the appropiate caster, it requires custom LCA's with adjustable mounts to allow the arm to push forward! If you didn't already know, I do make Custom TC rods as well. You can see them on Blues Z parts page: www. zselect.com I've built them with the same points of interest as the LCA's... No Mod installation, fully adj. on the car, and allows for the bolt alignment changes to the LCA/TC. You can read about it on the Zselect page. I'm actually almost finished redisigning them to incorperate a stronger non bushing style mount! ( for all the serious racing folks.) With the new mount, and the pivoting dogleg, it should be "hands down" the best performance adjustable TC offered! Watch for it very soon! Best RegardZ, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I agree..... Caster is the true key to the early Z's steering performance.. But in order to get the appropiate caster, it requires custom LCA's with adjustable mounts to allow the arm to push forward! Actually you need to do more than that. The caster trail needs to be adjustable to be able to use the large caster angles are different size tires and make this work. I'm actually almost finished redisigning them to incorperate a stronger non bushing style mount! ( for all the serious racing folks.) With the new mount, and the pivoting dogleg, it should be "hands down" the best performance adjustable TC offered! How about integrating the dog leg into the LCA and alinging it to the lower balljoint. Cary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 What's the advantage in aligning to the ball joint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Actually you need to do more than that. The caster trail needs to be adjustable to be able to use the large caster angles are different size tires and make this work. How about integrating the dog leg into the LCA and alinging it to the lower balljoint. Cary Hi Cary' date=' I'm actually in the process of making some design changes to the LCA's to incorperate the TC point. I'm also reworking the TC to use a solid style Tie rod end ( Ron Tyler turned me on to it ). Together it should make a very solid combination. The first set of TC's is going to Ron for his testing, and approval.... If you know him and his driving, he'll without a doubt take it to its limits. I'm very interesed in hearing your thoughts and Ides's in allowing for some trail corrections?? email me directly: www.azcarbum@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 What's the advantage in aligning to the ball joint? It has do do with trail... Here is how it was explained to me: (*Quote: RON T.) Trail and caster are closely linked. Trail is what makes the steering return to straight ahead when you let go of the wheel... and caster is the easiest way to adjust trail. BUT trail causes tire scrub as you turn the wheel. Make the example extreme, in your head, with lots of trail... now turn the wheel.... the tire will have to drag laterally a bit to turn. Normally, you don’t want any more trail than what you need for stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 I've done a little more research on this and I'm a bit confused as to how the TC mount affects the trail. The trail has to do with the difference between the contact patch location and the line through the top of the strut through the ball joint. Changing the location or the angle of the TC rod wouldn't have any effect on that at all as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 This helped me: A... stock arrangement B.... Move lower BJ forward increases caster AND trail C... Adding on to B... Move SPINDLE forward reduces the trail with no effect on caster. D... Adding on to B... installing a smaller tire reduces trail with no effect on caster. Trail and caster are closely linked. Trail is what makes the steering return to straight ahead when you let go of the wheel... and caster is the easiest way to adjust trail. BUT trail causes tire scrub as you turn the wheel. Make the example extreme, in your head, with lots of trail... now turn the wheel.... the tire will have to drag laterally a bit to turn. Normally, you don’t want any more trail than what you need for stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 I've done a bit of research too and I agree that you're correct in your description of trail, yours is a bit more eloquent than mine was, and the pics help a lot for others trying to follow along. But what I'm saying is that the angle of the TC rod has nothing to do with trail whatsoever. Caster vs the SAI is what determines trail. Aligning the TC rod to the ball joint doesn't have anything to do with it, right? I don't see the TC rod angle in your drawing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Correct.... The Alignment between the ball and the TC has nothing to do with it. Where the effects happen, is at the other end of the TC ( mount end). when the alignment between the LCA and TC is off at these points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Where the effects happen, is at the other end of the TC ( mount end). when the alignment between the LCA and TC is off at these points. What effect are we talking about? Still caster trail? Or some other effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcarbum Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Easier said, The TC doesn't directly effect trail at all.... other then, if you lengthen it, it pushes the lower ball joint forward... and THAT effects trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Right. I agree 100%. So what does that have to do with aligning the TC rod to the ball joint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted September 2, 2006 Administrators Share Posted September 2, 2006 Right. I agree 100%. So what does that have to do with aligning the TC rod to the ball joint? Brian, I'll answer Jon, if I may... Trail has nothing, geometrically speaking, to do with with aligning the TC to BJ. The reason for the change is simply one less part to build, marginally less weight, and a slightly improved load path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 That makes perfect sense. Keep the loads straight on the turnbuckle. Thank you for that Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBeaut Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Hi all, I've been looking in to this idea of pointing the T/C rod at the ball joint, and I've got a slight concern that it may cause interference with the wheel rim: As you can see the original 34* line is obviously closer in. My suspension is all stripped of my car at the moment so I can't double check this issue, any thoughts? BTW I took my dimensions from the chassis dimensions sticky, hopefully just about right Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 I feel this thread has enough technical, yet user friendly info that it deserves to be a sticky... Keep it up guys. This thread will help people trying to understand the compromises you must make in setting up the suspension, and the relationships between caster, camber, bumpsteer, and trail. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted September 4, 2006 Administrators Share Posted September 4, 2006 Hi all' date=' I've been looking in to this idea of pointing the T/C rod at the ball joint, and I've got a slight concern that it may cause interference with the wheel rim: [/quote'] Rob, I went out and took a couple pics. @ full lock... First pic clearly shows enough room for this wheel/tire combo... a 15x7, 4 1/8" backspace, with a 215/50 tire. Second pic... There is enough room for a 4 1/4" backspace... I'd say, with stock dia. springs, you'd never conceivably hit the TC if aligned with the BJ. However, with coil-overs and proper wheels, it looks like you'd run out of room. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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