JMortensen Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 First of all, the whale tail spoiler will have virtually 0 drag increase. I kinda thought that was the case too. I remember someone (johnc?) posted a C&D article from the early 70's where they were able to reduce drag and lift by installing a flat 7" spoiler on the back at some specified angle like 30 degrees from the hatch. I know John quoted the article when he made his spoiler for the ROD. I think one benefit to the whale tail is that it is a lot wider than the hatch itself. Plus it has the lip at the end which acts like a Gurney flap and it has the side fences on it. Just looking at it I have to think that it seems like it would be a LOT more effective than the BRE spoilers, possibly moreso than the NASCAR style as well, depending on how wide you could make the NASCAR style spoiler. It just seems like with that style you're limited to the width of the hatch or maybe just a hair wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Nobody said anything about including aerodynamic devices at the bottom of the car. Whale tail by itself will increase your drag, period. But I agree about the wing statement. That would be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 7, 2006 Author Share Posted October 7, 2006 Avatar is an Electramotive car I'm fairly sure, maybe that particualar one was a customer car? Seeing I want to keep the traditional look wings are out, may follow the Electramotive/ZXR whale tail design and get one made in aluminium with some adjustability in it. ZX lends itself to a diffuser too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a6t8vw Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 best spoiler? downforce? or looks? downforce..= maintain high pressure over the top of the car which pushes the car to the ground=traction ^ thats the best idea i can think of...kinda looks like a whale tale eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 posted by RonTyler: You *gotta* wonder about someone that installs a whale tail AND a shadow kit. What's funny about that picture is that it's CLEARLY a 280Z (not a ZX), but I pulled it straight from the MSA link that was in the first post of this thread...As for the louvers, I was never all that fond of them. You really wouldn't even notice them with the rear of your car obscured in smoke though... Hey Dave (Helix), would you mind sharing those designs you've been working on? I'd be very interested to see what you've come up with, but if you don't want to, that's cool too. 260DET, did any of the Electramotive cars run engines other than L28et's? If not, the exhaust should be on the other side of your avatar car, unless they were getting creative with the pipe routing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 So putting some pillars on the whale tail, will make it work better? Just asking. Well more down force in the rear without adiquet down force in the front, in relation to the rear, will cause front instability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Well, it's a good idea to goto a truck scale and see how much the car weighs front and back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Nobody said anything about including aerodynamic devices at the bottom of the car. Whale tail by itself will increase your drag, period. But I agree about the wing statement. That would be much better. Ah yes, but I don't know of any person on here who would actually run their car with no airdam in front, at the very least. That seems to be standard issue. But, point taken. Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Nobody said anything about including aerodynamic devices at the bottom of the car. Whale tail by itself will increase your drag, period. Have any form of analysis to back up that oh-so-certain comment? If not, I suggest you leave the option open. You may well be right, but you may well be wrong. Everything I have read in a couple of aero books always says `it depends ENTIRELY on the specific vehicle'. FWIW, the simple nascar spoilers are shown to reduce both drag and lift, and these cars have nasty ugly square fuel cells at the rear (about as far from underbody devices as you can get). Refer to McBeath `Competition Car Aerodynamics' or the appropriate Aerobytes article (from RaceCar Engineering). Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'm an Aerospace Engineer, I've got years of experience to back up my "oh-so-certain comment." Just like people in other fields can "tell by looking" at something, the same is true for a lot of engineering stuff. I'm telling you, the whale tale will increase your pressure drag. If you don't want to hear that, then that's your choice. What I can't tell by "looking at it" is if the advantages of the negative lift ("downforce") outweigh the drag. That's something you'd really need to do in a tunnel. And if you like it or not, the majority of aftermarket crap that people design for cars is for looks. Now you guys say this whaletail creates some amount of downforce and was used in racing before...so then I'm assuming somebody who knew what they were doing designed it. But if you really want to do some serious aerodynamics on your Z, you've got to take the whole car into consideration and not just slap a random wing on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 i was looking into getting one of the wings from tiger racing. i am alsogoing to use a fg hatch from beta. john was concerned about the 700# or so at 100 mph on the hatch. he said to have a solid brace through the hatch to keep from crushing. i think that that would be an issue evon on a standard hatch. that is a lot of downforce. problem 2 is 700# in the back would raise the front end something stupid. there would be no way to get an air dam to work at 100 mph because as soon as you hit the brakes, the dam would hit the tarmac and rip off. whale tail or bre for me, probably tail. jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank280zx Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'm an Aerospace Engineer, I've got years of experience to back up my "oh-so-certain comment." Just like people in other fields can "tell by looking" at something, the same is true for a lot of engineering stuff. I'm telling you, the whale tale will increase your pressure drag. If you don't want to hear that, then that's your choice. What I can't tell by "looking at it" is if the advantages of the negative lift ("downforce") outweigh the drag. That's something you'd really need to do in a tunnel. And if you like it or not, the majority of aftermarket crap that people design for cars is for looks. Now you guys say this whaletail creates some amount of down force and was used in racing before...so then I'm assuming somebody who knew what they were doing designed it. But if you really want to do some serious aerodynamics on your Z, you've got to take the whole car into consideration and not just slap a random wing on there. Yup the whale tail was designed for isma scca racing by the major teams, so they did take the whole car in consideration.. they might have look at porsche their design at the time.. but this was more or less the standard in late 70's car wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 ................. 260DET, did any of the Electramotive cars run engines other than L28et's? If not, the exhaust should be on the other side of your avatar car, unless they were getting creative with the pipe routing... That an exhaust pipe outlet just behind the front right wheel? Could have been a short cross over design for a L28ET? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Could have been, but to what end? Why not just route it the shortest way out and not have to worry about ground clearance? I would expect to find any exhaust outlets on the left side of a Z with a standard L in it, but without seeing under the hood of that car, I guess we can't be sure. I like that car too from what I've seen in that picture, I was just curious if there was more to the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I'm an Aerospace Engineer, I've got years of experience to back up my "oh-so-certain comment." Just like people in other fields can "tell by looking" at something, the same is true for a lot of engineering stuff. I'm telling you, the whale tale will increase your pressure drag. If you don't want to hear that, then that's your choice. I would hazard a guess that if you want people to start believing what you say, it would help if you provided something akin to an explanation? ``I'm an engineer, I can tell by looking'' doesn't hold much weight with me sorry. What I can't tell by "looking at it" is if the advantages of the negative lift ("downforce") outweigh the drag. That's something you'd really need to do in a tunnel. And if you like it or not, the majority of aftermarket crap that people design for cars is for looks. Doesn't necessarily have to be in a wind-tunnel. A few coast-down tests with(out) the wing would soon tell if it had any effect on drag. As for downforce, there are a few ways to approximate it without a tunnel, suspension compression, video footage, etc. Aftermarket parts are designed only for looks? Really? I'd never've guessed. Now you guys say this whaletail creates some amount of downforce and was used in racing before...so then I'm assuming somebody who knew what they were doing designed it. But if you really want to do some serious aerodynamics on your Z, you've got to take the whole car into consideration and not just slap a random wing on there. We agree on something at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 An explanation? I'm not going to waste my time or yours trying to explain the details of aerodynamics. If you knew anything about it, you'd know that an entire book could be written just focusing on aerodynamics for Z cars. I could list a plethora of equations that nobody would understand unless they went through years of training to be an engineer...so what good would explaining it do? I'm not saying you guys are stupid, but this is my field. If we were talking about art, then I would be the one asking questions. In any case, I really don't care if you believe me or not. I certainly know that I know what I'm talking about and have stated my credentials. What credentials do you have that allow you to discuss aerodynamics? Oh you read a couple of books? Great, you must know everything about it now! I've stated observations on here for people to read. If they decide to believe you over me, then there's nothing I can do about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 An explanation? I'm not going to waste my time or yours trying to explain the details of aerodynamics. If you knew anything about it, you'd know that an entire book could be written just focusing on aerodynamics for Z cars. I could list a plethora of equations that nobody would understand unless they went through years of training to be an engineer...so what good would explaining it do? I'm not saying you guys are stupid, but this is my field. If we were talking about art, then I would be the one asking questions. In any case, I really don't care if you believe me or not. I certainly know that I know what I'm talking about and have stated my credentials. What credentials do you have that allow you to discuss aerodynamics? Oh you read a couple of books? Great, you must know everything about it now! I've stated observations on here for people to read. If they decide to believe you over me, then there's nothing I can do about that. Time out. This is the internet, you need NO QUALIFICATIONS to discuss anything whatsoever. I've seen "qualified experts" express an opinion that was dead wrong before as well. The point is not to say that you are right or that you are wrong in this case. The point is that you have no right to tell people not to post on Hybrid Z. If you can't deal with the fact that other "laypeople" might express an opinion contrary to yours, you're going to have a tough time here. Play nice or go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFive Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Jon, I think your post is directed at the incorrect person. I was the one expressing an opinion, which somebody decided to challenge because they did not agree with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 I PM'd you. Let's keep this bickering offline and continue a discussion of the effectiveness of wings and spoilers, OK everyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I would expect to find any exhaust outlets on the left side of a Z with a standard L in it, but without seeing under the hood of that car, I guess we can't be sure. Back in 1973, some of the Nissan works rally cars were using exhaust systems that exited on both sides of the car, and also on just the right side of the car. Guess why: Back on the subject of spoilers; I see people here referring to a "BRE" rear spoiler for the S30-series Z cars. As far as I am aware, BRE never designed a rear spoiler for the first generation car - did they? Alan T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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