veritech-z Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 posted by HS30-H: Guess why: That particular car looks like it has a bigger than normal gas tank that takes up the place the muffler used to be, but I wouldn't swear to that...On a rally car I would expect that you would want as much ground clearance as you could get, so keeping it above the lowest point of your undercarriage would save you any embarrassing muffler dragging... That spoiler is the one commonly referred to as the "BRE" spoiler. I don't know who designed it, but I think the name comes from the fact that they used it on the BRE cars. Plus it's advertised for sale as "BRE style spoiler" almost anywhere you can buy it new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 That particular car looks like it has a bigger than normal gas tank.... Yes, that's a 100 litre FIA / JAF homologated works tank - just like the ones first seen on the PZR. The works cars later used a 120 litre version, and some of the fuel injected 240ZR circuit racers used a 180 litre tank. Imagine the amount of space they took up. On a rally car I would expect that you would want as much ground clearance as you could get.... Exactly. But the same thinking could also apply to circuit cars with low ride heights. The point in posting the pics was to show that the exhaust exit location(s) does not necessarily dictate the type of engine being used. That spoiler is the one commonly referred to as the "BRE" spoiler. I don't know who designed it, but I think the name comes from the fact that they used it on the BRE cars. Plus it's advertised for sale as "BRE style spoiler" almost anywhere you can buy it new. It was designed by engineers at Nissan before Pete Brock had even seen an S30-series Z. No disrespect to BRE ( far from it ) but the attributation is erroneous, and it seems a pity that it is probably now too late to change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Jon, I think your post is directed at the incorrect person. I was the one expressing an opinion, which somebody decided to challenge because they did not agree with it. How about this: REDFive and theHelix112, Knock it off... I'd hate to be accused of favoritism, so let's just QUIT with the bickering, BOTH OF YOU. Are we clear? JonM, Good job moderating this one... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank280zx Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 It is called a bre spoiler cause in the US they where never the stock spoiler on a z .. the euro cars did .. but BRE introduced them to the biggest z market public .. not to weird they call it BRE style .. better that oem spoiler as nobody would understand what you would be talking about. it is like googling ... it is all most THE word to use to search something .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS30-H Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 EDITED On the subject of spoilers and other aero devices for these cars, I think it can be useful and educational to see and understand what the factory and their works race teams were doing back when the cars were current, as well as the different approaches of privateer teams. There's a lot to be learned there, even if not all of it turned out to work........ EDITED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 OK, I've had enough. Starting with Alan's post, I'm just going to edit all the non spoiler or wing related crap. No more pedantic BS about who calls what part by what name, no more whining about who is challenging your sacred ideals. Keep it on target, or I'll keep it on target for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I was able to dig up this old thread on Google: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=90112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Bravo Jon! Bravo!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Did JohnC ever finish his spoiler tests that he alluded to on the thread Jmortensen dug up? I have a question that I haven't really seen anybody address: On one of the longer Aero threads from the days of yore, it was mentioned that using vortex generators like on the Evo MR (which is all one piece available from a Mitsu dealer, if anybody is interested in experimenting with one) would reduce drag by affecting the air traveling over the hatch. Would the louvers do this same thing to the airflow over the hatch? I was thinking of maybe getting some louvers and extending them out with some aluminum sheet maybe...Here's the idea: It looked a lot cooler in my head before I put it down on paper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I don't think that would create the kind of vortex you want veritech. I've been thinking that the vortex generators like you alluded to before, the ones on the roof of the EVO might have an interesting effect on a Z with a whale tail or a spoiler. Would keep more air headed down the window and should get a more significant amount of downforce out of the spoiler I would think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 that is what i am doing. i have a whale tail and will bond 5 genrerators just before the hatch seam. jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 that is what i am doing. i have a whale tail and will bond 5 genrerators just before the hatch seam. jim Recall a while ago that stick on vortex generators were being sold for automotive use, pics and results of yours would be good Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 i had them mocked up on the car before i started blasting away. when i get the car primered to go to the cage guy, i will throw them back on and snap a picture with the tail on the hatch and the gens on the roof. looked kinda cool. ( i can stand a little more bling than most of the guys here it seems. i was really tempted to get a wing but backed up for fear of major ridicule(sp)). jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Screw the ridicule. Do what works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 i know. the wing would make the car ass heavy. i will stick with the tail, maybe later when the car acutally runs i can screw around with the wing. jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 From what I have read (limited) I would guess the following: 1. Vortex generators should be placed just before (I think?) the point of flow separation down the hatch, so it would be good to test that with some tape and wool before you decide where to put them. 2. Vorticies produce LOW pressure on the surfaces they interact with due to the increased speed of the air travelling about the vortex core. (Longer helical path as opposed to straight line, in the same time). You don't want low pressure on the top of the spoiler obviously. 3. The vortex generator should stick up JUST past the boundary layer, which I have heard people say is only around 2-3cm, so made sure they're not too big. Though new BMWs and the like look to be more like 4-5cm, so who knows? 4. I'm with Jon veritech, the louvers you drew would not do much I think. 5. All this leads to is, vorticies are great where you want low pressure and/or delayed flow separation for drag reduction. At a guess I wouldn't think they'd interact well with any topside spoiler/wing. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Is the flow seperation point dependent on speed? If so, I suppose you'd have to tune your vortex generator location to a given vehicle speed? I've pretty much given up on the louver idea anyway, I was thinking about that one day when I was more bored than usual... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Yes it is dependent on speed. The faster the speed, the more energy the air has, as the more willing it is to remain attached longer in the face of an unfavourable pressure gradient. The whale tail is interesting in that it gather's air from the sides of the car and redirects them onto the spoilers. Something else for me to think about. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 One of these should work on the ZX in conjunction with a whale tail, maybe add a horizontal splitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 2. Vorticies produce LOW pressure on the surfaces they interact with due to the increased speed of the air travelling about the vortex core. (Longer helical path as opposed to straight line, in the same time). You don't want low pressure on the top of the spoiler obviously. You don't want low pressure, but you do want airflow over the spoiler. The more the better, right? If the airflow is separating off of the hatch and tumbling that's not going to give very high pressure at the spoiler either. Don't you think that the airflow without the vortex generators would be less effective when it hits the spoiler than a relatively smoother albeit also low pressure airflow that really slams into the spoiler? That was my thought anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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