bjhines Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Absolutely this will help those of you with body kits... all of the things I outlined above can be used on S-30s with body kits... A lot of these mods seem like tiny changes.... But the tunnel operators showed us data on an old Fiat that had some similar changes made and the performance changes are ASTOUNDING!!!!! We also looked at some data for the Land Speed Record Camaros and Trans Ams... The Data shows that the smallest changes to the top surfaces of the car can make HUGE changes in airflow at the rear of the car... There is a GOOD REASON every single car made today has flushed glass... DAMN GOOD REASONS indeed... It seems that flushing the glass can be one of the BIGGEST improvements we can make without significantly changing the shape of the body... Notice I DID NOT say that we would shave the gutters off the car... Considering we must leave the side windows down at most track events... We need the gutters to keep air OUT of the sides of the car... that does not mean we won't be fairing the gutters though... Another interesting tidbit about rear lip spoilers... They do work... but at the cost of HUGE amounts of horsepower... that cost growing ever higher with speed... The typical nearly vertical angle of the BRE S-30 rear lip spoilers is not deflecting airflow the way it does for more modern race car bodies... We need to EXTEND the back of our cars with a rear lip the lays out almost flat... add some side strakes to that rear lip and it would look like a 3-piece lip that was layed out flat(nearly horizontal)... We are betting that we can get even more downforce with a REDUCTION in DRAG... One benefit of the typical BRE and 3 piece rear lips is their ability to stabilize the car... like a tail on a dart... Instability on track(especially in traffic) may have driven the need for the tall nearly vertical tails... The way to address this is to improve overall stability with an Aero package that addresses all the problems from front to rear... (without changing the overall body shape) The Goal here is to get BALANCED and IMPROVED aero performance from our beloved little antiques... They were designed for style not parting the wind in a controlled manner... The Pantera Hatch has been blown out of the sky as strictly STYLING... It works for some designs.. but the S-30s need the stock hatch The idea of mounting a large "ricer" wing ANYWHERE on the car has been chucked out with the trash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Interesting... Will they discount a second day of testing so you have enough time to test some kit cars? If not, that's okay. I'll donate anyway. BTW, what about testing with and without the window rain gutters installed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 We can "hide" the gutters... We will be working on ideas for the gutters... But removing them may hurt more than it helps.. especially if you need side windows open for safety... Having a window net installed also keeps air out of the cockpit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm wondering why the ricer wing is out the door. There is no doubt that a big wing can make big downforce, and pretty much all serious road racing classes use a large wing in the rear for downforce, ALMS LMP1 and LMP2, GT, GT2, Daytona Prototype, even the lower classes are using them now, Speed GT and Touring classes, as well as almost every open wheel racer since the 70s. I'm just thinking that you guys may end up with a "Moby Dick" Porsche when this is all done sans the tail, and that won't really help anyone that doesn't want a 3' extension on the back of their car. http://www.geocities.com/simontmallett/mobydick3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 How can you "hide" the rain gutters:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Fairings to hide the transition between the roof and gutters... Think lots of duct tape and cardboard... JM... the Moby dick Porsche has exactly the kind of body shape changes we would have to make for the S-30 Zcars... We are trying to get as much improvement as we can without going to that extreme... The Porsche design also shows the lack of full scale testing that would have shown them the need for flushing the windows as well... and the tall wing is more likely hurting more than it helps... unless it pays dividends in stabilizing a twitchy, buffeting car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 For those who have wide bodies... To minimize wing size... I wonder if modifying the rear fender vents would do any good. What I mean is... increase the size of the frontal opening and modify the rear vent into an upwardly escaping position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm going to send a cashier's check. BJ or JM... Please PM me with a mailing address? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 BJ... (Hiding the rain gutters)... Thanks, I figured it would be somthing like that. How effective do you think that will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 HEHE.. now that I read the Porsche article... They had a serious fuel consumption problem... It sounds like the big wing needed to go in the trash... and besides... It is a rear engine car with plenty of rear end weight... why the big friggin weing...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 365 kph might have had something to do with it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Spillman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm just thinking that you guys may end up with a "Moby Dick" Porsche when this is all done sans the tail, and that won't really help anyone that doesn't want a 3' extension on the back of their car. http://www.geocities.com/simontmallett/mobydick3.html Wings and things that hang out in the air create drag.....and sometimes downforce. I need less drag for higher top speeds. I would think that a huge wing creating gobs of downforce is great for traction when turning,or at 150 plus speeds and if you have the engine to push the blame thing down the straights...... Reduce the lift first, before having a wing pushing down. In my situation less drag is better then any amount of downforce a big wing could create, when a small ripple in the roof line may help negate the lift created by our sloping deck. Thinking out loud, to stir thought..something I'm in dire need of...fer sure. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 If you're shooting for a land speed record I would agree that less drag is crucial. I think the focus of a wind tunnel test for a LSR Z car would be TOTALLY different than one for a road race car. I had assumed since the talk previously was about increasing downforce that we this testing was going to be geared at cars that need to turn. Decreasing drag is also great, but if it requires a huge extension on the back of the car, well I haven't seen that one in the MSA catalog. I feel that since we are talking mostly about 2500 lb cars with turbos and V8s drag shouldn't be the BIGGEST concern. Certainly a concern, but maybe not the biggest. I'm definitely arguing for my own interests, so keep my somewhat selfish motives in mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I think I've missed the point of your tests. I thought the idea was to acquire data regarding the best mods for improving a highway-driven car. I need to go back and read the rest of the posts in this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datsun350Z Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 BJ... Paint doesn't make it go any faster... Are you planning on testing this theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 ...... The Pantera Hatch has been blown out of the sky as strictly STYLING... It works for some designs.. but the S-30s need the stock hatch. ...... Why are we dropping this idea without testing? Without empirical data, how does one KNOW that the Pantera style hatch doesn't work? Even if less effective than on other vehicles, it could be a small percentage better than stock; several small percantages can add up to quite a bit. Logically, a small lip/spoiler/body mod near the top of the hatch (or hatch window opening) with a Pantera deck would create a nice vortex above the deck lid to reach back and join with the vortex at the rear of the car. "Less drag" items are important to me for highway mileage... Not only LSR folk care about drag. (But I won't be flushing my side windows... If an easy mod to flush the windshield is found, maybe). <> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Spillman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm definitely arguing for my own interests, so keep my somewhat selfish motives in mind... Jon, I'm on the track as well....With a "low" HP ITS car.....not so low now.."Thanks Sunbelt". But seriously. if the lift in the rear can be reduced, or canceled, you now have what, 100 pounds you didn't have before? Without twice the drag? wing pushing down and deck lifting...... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Spillman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I think I've missed the point of your tests. I thought the idea was to acquire data regarding the best mods for improving a highway-driven car. I need to go back and read the rest of the posts in this thread... If it helps at 150 MPH, it'll help some at 75MPH....Not as much, but should be just has effective..., but there again, reduced lift will help everywhere? I'm interested in the comment BJ made about benefit, or lack of benefit of keeping air out from under car.... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Hey... update on the Pantera Hatch... I have talked some more about the testing schedule... It looks like the Hatch mod has enough interest that it is going back on the board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 I'm definitely arguing for my own interests, so keep my somewhat selfish motives in mind... We are all arguing our own interests (including Mr. Hines), but I'll lay odds that most of the contributors are street oriented, not SCCA. We need to quantify the effect of changes that may be broadly applied. Simpler is also better, if not always possible. And thanks for putting the hatch back in the schedule . <> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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