Administrators RTz Posted December 15, 2006 Administrators Share Posted December 15, 2006 knowledge is power! ...well then, that makes me powerless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 ...well then, that makes me powerless fortunately... J/K! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted December 15, 2006 Administrators Share Posted December 15, 2006 That reminds me. I've been meaning to tell you something... I don't like you. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Mainly because I don't really work on my Z... I am only building a faster Z than you though...and I have a 10,000 sq ft fabrication shop on 50 acres with a PAVED air strip... Anyway back on subject. Sorry for the rant there guys...and to completely bust Mr. Tyler's little baloon. J/K!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 15, 2006 Author Share Posted December 15, 2006 knowledge is power! Yessir it certainly is! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 knowledge is power! Only when that knowledge is used for action. Knowledge not acted upon is just clutter that gets spewed onto internet message boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Kinetic. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. Potential but static. Edit: Like donation monies at rest of our pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Beck Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Hi Carl. Welcome. I have to take issue with, I don't think that is right. The turbulence in back of the car is not high pressure turbulence. It's LOW pressure turbulence. The reason the exhaust gets into the cabin is because it is SUCKED in, not PUSHED in. Flow separation, the cause of the turbulence, creates low pressure. Cracking the windows creates suction inside the cabin via the Bernoulli effect, so now you have suction inside the cabin and vacuum at the rear of the car, and that REALLY sucks the exhaust into the cabin. Any little hole allows air back in, and since that air is turbulating all the exhaust, that's what gets sucked into the cabin. I do agree that opening the fresh air vents increases the cabin pressure, and that works against the vacuum which is trying to force air into the holes in the rear of the car. That is why positive pressure works. I am not an expert, I only know what I've read here and elsewhere, but the bottom line for me is that you need some sort of deflector or barrier to create positive pressure, like air hitting the radiator, the windshield, or a spoiler. Just pulling the car through the air creates a negative pressure behind. Why can't you run fast in a swimming pool? Because when you try to move you create a huge turbulent vacuum behind you, and that tries to suck you backwards. Same thing with a car through the air, just a less viscous medium. If you created positive pressure behind, then you'd actually go faster for having it there. We worry about drag, but not about "push". Hi Jon: Thanks for the welcome and the response. This is a good discussion to have, before the wind tunnel is cranked up, and indeed I could be conceptualizing all this in the wrong manor. How I understood it :(which could very well be the wrong way of thinking about it) "It" being the Kamm back design and its effects: I believe that Dr. Kamm did indeed worry about both Drag and "push". Yes, the tumbling/spinning air flow - ie. rotating in a horizontal circle, is moving at a higher speed, than the air flow coming off the car and transiting over the top of that circulation. The speed of the circulating air also gets higher as it approaches the center of circulation - and thus the center of that rotation is the lowest pressure area within that circulation. The center of a Hurricane is its lowest pressure area. But when Hurricanes come ashore - the circulating bands blow with very high wind speeds.. and thus exert very high pressures on anything they encounter (a mass of air molecules moving at very high speed). The high pressure area at the rear of the car in this case, is not the center of that circulation (low pressure area), but rather is at the point where the higher speed winds of that spinning circulation - strike/collide with (push against) the rear of the car. Just as the air striking the front of the car creates high pressure. As I understood it (that qualifier again) - Dr. Kamm wanted that center of circulation positioned at a point behind the car, to not only take advantage of its ability to effectively reduce separation turbulence (support a smoother transition of the air flow off the back of the car - much the same as extending the body itself back to a pointed end), but to also take advantage of the energy in that spinning low pressure area - and apply it to the back of the car - yes to gain a little offsetting "push". Adding the Nissan/BRE rear spoiler - effectively moves the center of circulation rearward away from the back of the car, and thus reduces or eliminates the high speed winds in the circulation from hitting the back of the car. I think "suction" is a term that describes an effect, I don't see how it can be a cause. Maybe if we're lucky we'll get a physics major upset enough to jump in here, as we mangle the subject. At any rate - If the pressure sensors are put in the right places on this project - we should be able to see more clearly just what is happening. FWIW, Carl B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Carl we should probably keep this thread focused donations, as that is the real purpose here. We have several other good threads going that have a lot to do with the same subject. Here are some links, there are more. The first one is the one that spawned the wind tunnel project. The second compares the Mitsubishi EVO method of reducing the boundary separation layer to the Subaru WRX method: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=115294 http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117165 I'm going to try and copy your post to the first thread so we can continue the discussion there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoeightnine Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Kinetic.Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. Potential but static. Edit: Like donation monies at rest of our pockets. Like the title says. "wind". I dont hear any coins dropping!!! There is alot to be said about the hero/zero thing. Lets be do'ers boys!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Sorry guys...Ive sold all my Zs and bought a YUGO with a LS7 in it... Ok bad joke....Im in ...sorry I was late in reading this post. Im interested in the GNOSE results especially. PayPal sent... Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 OK Gang, This is a really important drive and we're asking each and every member who owns an S30 to dig deep and come up with whatever you can for this effort. BJ Hines and a few others from the North Carolina area have gotten together with the owner of a windtunnel and are planning to rent the windtunnel for some basic testing/ data collection on the Zcar, both in stock trim, and with a number of spoilers/airdams/aerodynamic devices to see what really helps, what really doesn't and what cause and effect can be measured. This is VERY important to each and every one of you who drives an S30. We all thumb thru the pages of each vendor catalog, trying to decide which air dam looks best, or which rear wing provides the most function along with form. Don't you want to know WHAT TRULY WORKS? It's time to answer the question to these mystery parts combos and The Carolina gang are willing to put up some funds, front some parts and chassis, and do the wrenching/take the time. Since we're the PREMIER site for modifications to the Zcar, I think it would be best represented to the Zcar community if we champion this cause. PLEASE DONATE TO THIS CAUSE. If you can spare $10-25-50-100-500-1000, Any amount, please donate... I'll track these funds and provide an accurate accounting of the monies. If for some reason we do NOT pull off the event, your funds will be returned to you. Please understand that any fees Paypal hits me for will be gone to them and not me, and therefore won't be refunded. PLEASE DONATE TO THIS EFFORT. We'll all benefit from this excersise in aerodynamic testing. Send funds to: dat74z@yahoo.com We'll post an update as the event comes together. I plan to write an article to submit Nissan Sport Magazine and we'll take plenty of pictures and defenitely post the results. We'll also track the funds and I assure you that this WILL NOT BE another PINKS fiasco. All of the parties involved are mature adult professionals who don't need to scam you for your money! The cost for one day of rental is $3500. This is NOT gonna be a cheap endeavor. Please keep this in mind when deciding to donate or not. Contact me offline for more info... Mike Kelly Administrator at Large HybridZ PAYPAL SENT!!!! Hey Mike update my little yellow donation thingy...I like seeing it go up lol.... Terry Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 16, 2006 Author Share Posted December 16, 2006 THanks Terry!!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun40146 Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 So do we have a date for when this event is going to happen? Also does everyone that donated get a donation bar under thier user name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 I'll get with Dan and see what we can do to add a different donation bar for the Aerodynamics testing... Give me a day or two... Got several balls in the air... As to the Date, I"m not sure if BJ has nailed that down yet. Although I do know that Ken Jones will be documenting this event for Nissan Sport. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 We are meeting at the facility after Christmas to get more details ironed out... It looks like Feb will be the target.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombarace14 Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 So whats the total so far Mike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 I just sent a donation. You might use it towards this if you guys get your full day paid up. I was looking for something just like it, then gave up and sent cash, then Proxlamus sends me this link not 10 minutes later!!! Looks easy to tape on. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-06-Nissan-Altima-Vortex-Generator-Roof-Spoiler-03-04_W0QQitemZ280062178915QQihZ018QQcategoryZ33638QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 nice.. but what width...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 I don't know that width is that critical. It wasn't in these articles (hopefully you can read these, if not PM me): http://autospeed.drive.com.au/A_3060/cms/article.html http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_3061/article.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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