mull Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Kind of silly thread, but whatever... : ) I was just browsing around Arizona Z-car and came upon this page; http://www.arizonazcar.com/camberplate.html ...and these images/bylines. "This is what it looks like fully welded." "If you take the time to metal finish the weld it can come out looking like it came from the factory this way. " What exactly do they mean by "metal finish the weld"? Judging by the looks of it they used lead soldering? If they used lead soldering, I wonder what method they used to completely wipe the residue (left from torching the lead flux/paste) from the bumpy TIG weld to prevent it from rusting. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledphoot Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 I would think the lead seals the metal and this doesnt allow oxidation to take place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Kind of silly thread, but whatever... : ) I was just browsing around Arizona Z-car and came upon this page; http://www.arizonazcar.com/camberplate.html ...and these images/bylines. "This is what it looks like fully welded." "If you take the time to metal finish the weld it can come out looking like it came from the factory this way. " What exactly do they mean by "metal finish the weld"? Judging by the looks of it they used lead soldering? If they used lead soldering, I wonder what method they used to completely wipe the residue (left from torching the lead flux/paste) from the bumpy TIG weld to prevent it from rusting. Any ideas? I believe they are just grinding/sanding the tops off the stack of nickels. If you look closely, there is a bump below the finished area, which is the original strut tower. Also, the first inch or so of the weld closest to the radiator has a slight angle in both the 'nickel' and finished pictures. If a person were leading this, that would be masked, and there would only be one continuous curve from the top of the camber plate into the strut tower itself. (No step below the finished area). <> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mull Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 I believe they are just grinding/sanding the tops off the stack of nickels. If you look closely, there is a bump below the finished area, which is the original strut tower. Also, the first inch or so of the weld closest to the radiator has a slight angle in both the 'nickel' and finished pictures. If a person were leading this, that would be masked, and there would only be one continuous curve from the top of the camber plate into the strut tower itself. (No step below the finished area). <> Nope. Here's the image of the painted installation ... : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Just use a flap disc on a grinder... I think the lead may possibly crack under the stresses of a strut tower... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mull Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 I think the lead may possibly crack under the stresses of a strut tower... Isn't that what lead doesn't do? The bars bend pretty easily anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexideways Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Yeah, lead was used, in the old hotrod days, to blend body panels together or fill low spots. Used to be bigger sedans, they called them lead sleds. I was told that IF you can do it right it's very durable but do one little thing wrong and the thing will not stick properly and can even fall off later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 I don't think paint bends as easy as lead...and it would get little cracks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 Clifton is the owner of that Z and is also a member here. Why don't you PM him and direct him to this thread. I'm sure he can tell you what exactly was done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjc5500 Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 It looks like Lead was used. Yes if done right lead would hold up. Lead will not allow rust to form underneath it. lead is difficult to do. you can get that same look w/o lead. just build the weld up thick and grind away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexideways Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 The thing with lead is that you don't put much heat in the panel as opposed to building weld on a thin sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mull Posted December 24, 2006 Author Share Posted December 24, 2006 Yeah, lead was used, in the old hotrod days... Or in the 2006-ish days, to fix up a crappy 240z : ) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6754985255763854918 Thanks you for your (everyone's) input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Got to agree with Racer X here! Having been fortunate to take a body arts classes from people who used lead daily (a crazy lot those guys were !) they were the first to tell you "Anything that happend to Bondo can happen with lead!" It will fall off, it will crack, it will rust underneath... It's all in the way it's applied, and the skills of the technician applying it. Most of the old-timers were using Bondo, and GLADLY didn't look back! My instructor would skim coat over lead simply because of economics: "Look, you can metal finish this panel in another 50 hours, or you can finish it now in 2 using a bondo skim coat." Lead work required a lot of filler, then sloooooowly filing it down flush and smooth. If you went too far, you basically started over. If you were close, you simply applied primer to fill. Sand, reprimer, sand, reprimer, sand.... Many times people used Acid-Based fluxes for tinning the base metal, and if you didn't tin COMPLETELY there was this nice little pocket of ACID and BARE METAL. Now it rusted/corroded from UNDER the lead to the backside of the panel where nobody notices it...then the water gets BEHIND the lead....and like RacerX said: POPOUT! There were caveats all over about properly cleaning your tinning flux as the acid would ruin the nitrocellulose paints---caused swelling in the finish topcoat. Nasty stuff... But these guys also WORKED the metal. The key in any filler is to get the surface as close as possible to evenly smooth WITHOUT filler. That is the definition of "metalworking." As long as either filler is thin, they will hold. Long term, lead will not heat-shrink-pullup like most of today's poly fillers, but epoxy microbaloons mixed and applied is better than bondo anyway... I digress... Back to "Work the metal". In the old days after you welded a panel, you hammerwelded it... That is two men worked the weld with a torch and hammer-dolly to bang it down flush so the weld was indistinguishable from the metal surrounding it. Lots of dolly and hammer work, lots of shrinking... By metal finishing, from what I see there, it looks like they rounded the camber plate to the weld, and the weld to the strut tower area, nothing more. If you fill over a structural weld, you are asking for a catastrophic failure to come up and bite you! Most sanctioning bodies forbid grinding or smoothing of welds at all---especially when dealing with crash structures and suspension reinforcements. The most I would do is weld a lot of filler on there, and grind it back down flush. There is not any reason to need any filler if you properly work the metal, and then topcoat directly over the weld. At least then if something is cracking from being worked too thin, you will see it through the paint. You put it under lead or bondo, and it's not going to show up until you hit a bump and your strut tries to open your hood in mid-corner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam280Z Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 If lead doesn't (can't) crack, how do you explain the dreaded b-pillar crack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ManyZs Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 The B pillar "crack" shows up because that was one area on the chassis that should have been seam welded at the factory instead of a bunch of little spot welds. If you've ever seen just how little contact there is with some of the spot welds on the Z chassis, you'd wonder how they have lasted as long as they have. It's not so much the lead that was used in that seam that is cracking, it's just pulled away from one panel due to the movement in the seam due to twisting of the panels. Some cars never show that crack, yet some others had it when they were only a few years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 If lead doesn't (can't) crack, how do you explain the dreaded b-pillar crack? Reading closer you will also note I said if applied properly, and mosre importantly thinly. This is not the case at the B-Pillar solder joint. More importantly, the Z's did have polyester filler OVER the body solder as the main contour putty. This is a weight issue on a sports car. Had they done a solder/contour job like on a 1957 Chevy, chances are good the B pillar wouldn't crack at the top. But they didn't, they used polyester, and as a result, it cracks. The only solder in that joint is ther for joining panels and giving a non-moveable base for the Polyester. Unfortunately the body solder in the joint...it flexes, and the polyester doesn't after the years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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