Exotic "SOUNDING", high revving V8! Read "ENTIRE" thread before posting!!!

[OlderThanMe]

Tweety: Got pics? I'd like to see your setup!!!

 

"make a short runner mani"

How about my short-runner setup that uses stock fuel rails?

Or Mr. Komiya's setup? Basically the same thing...

[OlderThanMe]

Why do you think the VH is better for modification otm?

I like legos, I have played with legos since I was 1 year old...the VH45 is like legos.

2 diff. heads available, 2 different cranks, a couple tranny options with adapters(VK has to use the junky VQ tranny for manual), use a Z32 flywheel/clutch(once again, choices) with SR20DET flywheel bolts...Legos. (like the L and RB series engines)

 

VH45 is widely available so it's cheaper when I break stuff (I could go get 5 complete VH45 engines with transmissions and harnesses tomorrow for under $1300 if I could pull them fast enough...try finding one VK for near that price in good shape within 35 miles of home. LOL)

 

That is why I like the VH45 best for a modified V8. In fact I may go as far as to say for the Dollar/Horsepower ratio it is the BEST V8 out there.

Beats the socks out of the cheby single cam V8 engines.

[Guest TeamNissan]

HaHa I was always a lego nut too. I'll give you the heads and cranks but I don't see that as such a huge bonus. I refuse to give you the tranny bit though, WITH ADAPTER, said adapter could be used on a vk too. I mean the vh doesn't even have a single manual tranny available to use without a adapter.

 

Availability and price are nice, REALLY nice bonuses for the VH but its old, older engines = more availability & lower prices(90% of the time) and newer engines = the opposite. Thats a factor with all engines, don't think its fair to use it on a model vs model like this. I mean if age is equaling acceptably lower prices here then even a BBC wins no? lol

 

The last statement is pretty strong, your so biased but understandably lol. Its a GREAT engine, maybe even one of the best, but not THEE best. One example right off thats beats it in many fields is the ford modular series. Talk about legos.. Greats availability, comparable base purchase prices, BETTER $/hp ratio, comparable if not better performance to be had due to greater after market support, fantastic design. but I digress......

[OlderThanMe]

WITH ADAPTER, said adapter could be used on a vk too. I mean the vh doesn't even have a single manual tranny available to use without a adapter.

True. But the adapters are available to purchase.

T56, some group buy was going on but maybe it fizzled?

VG, which also means RB, and RB-AWD trannies are a bolt-in possibility(bolts in to the VG bellhousing, think atessa AWD for truck or car application)... Mazworks

 

Later VH41 auto with AWD is available(no adapter needed, upgrades for VH41 and VH45 tranny available to hold 800+ horsepower)

 

Either way, from my obsevations, the VH45 seems like a more usable, mod-able, and repairble engine. It also appears as if an aftermarket is about to start for it too.

Just my opinions and observations...

[Guest tweety]

what happens at 1500HP though, your stuck with Powerglides, Lencos etc..

[Guest tweety]

what happens at 1500HP though, your stuck with Powerglides, Lencos etc..

this is the old stationwagon, the 240Z will have easily as much HP, but no clutch this time!

[mtcookson]

I refuse to give you the tranny bit though, WITH ADAPTER, said adapter could be used on a vk too. I mean the vh doesn't even have a single manual tranny available to use without a adapter.

 

You would need to have a different adapter made for VK as it has a different bell housing bolt patter... and, the VK is in the same boat as the VH, not having any manual transmissions available without an adapter. I'm sure Mazworx could easily make an adapter for the VK to use the VG 5-speed... I really like their adapter idea. Works great and keeps the tranny flush, doesn't add any thickness to it, which in the case of swapping into a vehicle that uses a rear sump oil pan gives you extra room for more oil capacity.

 

However... the VK does have the 5-speed automatic, which wouldn't be too bad really. I kind of wish it could fit the VH45 for use in a Q45. I want a 5-speed in the Q, but would prefer to keep it auto... oddly enough. Usually I hate auto trannies but when driving the Q it somehow just fits.

 

what happens at 1500HP though, your stuck with Powerglides, Lencos etc..

 

If you're making 1,500 hp then you've likely built it for drag racing which means you should have a Powerglide or similar in the first place.

[Guest tweety]

Well we're going to try and drive it on the street-and yes it gets a glide , The plan is to drive it on the street a little way at least !I still cannot beleive how big the engine bay is this tiny little car.

I post some pics at some point I guess..

[Guest TeamNissan]

You would need to have a different adapter made for VK as it has a different bell housing bolt patter... and, the VK is in the same boat as the VH, not having any manual transmissions available without an adapter. I'm sure Mazworx could easily make an adapter for the VK to use the VG 5-speed... I really like their adapter idea. Works great and keeps the tranny flush, doesn't add any thickness to it, which in the case of swapping into a vehicle that uses a rear sump oil pan gives you extra room for more oil capacity.

 

I know, my point was you can't list as a bonus trans options for a engine based on adapters when you could do the same with any other engine. Maybe I worded it wrong?

[OlderThanMe]

I guess I'm thinking of off-the-shelf parts and adaptors...no R&D required.

Mazworks offers a VH to VG trans adapter for a good price and I consider that an "off-the-shelf" part.

[Guest TeamNissan]

Ya I know what you mean but still thats just one more part you need to buy, and its not really cheap either even as a group buy. You could pick and pull 3+ vg trans at the cost of that adapter. To me it really offsets any savings you receive on the vh. Esp when I sit and think of all the other comparable v8's out there with 5 or even 6 speeds available stock.

[mtcookson]

I know, my point was you can't list as a bonus trans options for a engine based on adapters when you could do the same with any other engine. Maybe I worded it wrong?

 

Nah, you worded it fine. I understood what you said for the most part but for some reason still added that. I do weird things sometimes.

 

As far as actual transmission options... I would probably give the VK that one as it does have the 5-speed. Though... the VH does have the same auto as the Z32 TT which means you can get a pre-built Z32 TT auto tranny and just swap bell housings... I'd still prefer a 5-speed though.

[OlderThanMe]

BTW there is now a VH45-TH400 adapter...

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/290374

[HB280ZT]

How about a Northstar V8!!

 

They came in a 4.0L and 4.6L dual overhead cams.

 

Just a thought because I have seen many in the old J-yard!

 

HB280ZT

[Gollum]

Very interesting. All of those V-8 cranks in that video, on the rack etc, were dual plane. Thanks for the link. Too bad the video isn’t in English.

 

So does anyone know what Ferrari car is getting those 360 degree cranks, and does anyone know if any other Ferrari V-8s were dual plane, i.e. vintage Ferrari?

 

The 308, 328, F-40, 348, 355, and 360 are all single plane, or at least the early 360's were, I have no idea what the latest iteration of the Modena might be using.

 

I'll have to jot down a note so I can remember to ask my ferarri friend next time I see him. (used to run a well established ferarri only shop in the east bay, told him about 6 months ago that I'd stop by once my L28et was on the road) I'll find out what he knows about 180 and 90 degree ferarri cranks. Last time I was in his shop he had one of the horizontally opposed V12 cars in there, and had a 3 liter V8 on an engine stand.

 

Ok, Team Nissan started another thread, and in one of my replies in that thread, the concept of possibly actually doing this concept hit me. Even if it doesn’t produce big power, it “should” run good enough to be fun and have lots of WOW factor at the various Nissan shows and events. (Darn you Team Nissan! This totally goes against what I’ve always preached about always building as big as you can afford. This concept is starting to sound like a fun “do it only because you can” type project and it could end up being financially realistic, depending on how much machine work and parts research one is willing to do on their own of course.. ).

 

 

First, the idea was a small displacement V-8. I thought why not use the SBC or SBF and just destroke the crap out of it. This would be a VERY over square set up, (I love OVER SQAURE engine designs, for less valve shrouding and because they are generally high winders.. ) Well I did some calculations and here is what I came up with..

 

 

If you could use the SBC or SBF block with the 4.030” bore, with the following custom stroke cranks;

 

2”-------stroke = 204 CID/ 3343 CC

1 3/4”---stroke = 179 CID/ 2933 CC

1 5/8”---stroke = 166 CID/ 2720 CC

1 1/2”---stoke = 153 CID/ 2507 CC

1 3/8”---stroke = 140 CID/ 2294 CC

1 1/4”---stroke = 128 CID/ 2098 CC

 

 

Compression ratio with 4.030 bore, 2” stroke, true flat top pistons

58 CC head 7.2:1

64 CC head 6.7:1

 

Just for reference, same set up but with 1 1/4” stroke

58 CC head 4.9:1

64 CC head 4.6:1

 

 

 

1) A SBC block 4.030” bore, OE Vette 58 CC heads, or aftermarket heads, preferably AFR, use OE replacement over the counter common domed pistons for either the 302, 327 or 350, (differing pin heights to more closely match the rods you find), find a set of rods from another application that will work with either of the 3 different over the counter cheap domed pistons, then, with access to a lathe, you could machine your own billet single plane crank with a stroke around 2”, (adjust the actual stroke to put the pistons at zero Deck at TDC). You’ll have a “semi” budget high winding single plane V-8. 9-10K RPM should be doable even with cast pistons with a 2” stroke, add a cross ram ITB like pictures below. Lot so of wow factor with the hood up, and that cool high RPM single plane V-8 BRAAAAAAP with the hood down..

 

 

2) Same scenario, but with flat top pistons for a boost-able 7.2:1 comp ratio, add either an Eaton M-112 super charger or a pair of hair dryers, 12-15 lbs of boost…

 

 

3) The lighter weight SBF 302 block, utilize the same game plans as described for the SBC, but has the potential for a bit of weight savings..

 

 

 

 

I'd thought about this idea before. I'd only thought about it in regards to a SBF though. Either ford or chevy route might be a very affordable option for a high reving V8 if you can sort the valve train out. You're the man to do it though.

 

Eccentric shaft, (sort of like our crankshafts), is tach speed. Those 4 rotor beasts definitely sound upward sof 8k+

 

Technically the motor is not high revving at all, The real top speed of the motor is around 4k but eternal gearing outputs to more like 8k redline

 

Gollum can chime in he knows way more

 

Ok, here's what I know.

 

The rotory motor "sounds" like a high reving motor because it's firing a whole heck of a lot more often than a "2 cylinder" which is what the idiots at mazda insist on calling it.

 

As mentioned in another post the shaft rotates at a VERY different speed than the rotor. For ever SINGLE rotation of the rotor the crank rotates 900 degrees. What this MEANS is that a single rotor has 2 fires per a "normal" 720 degree "cycle".

 

Some other interesting info:

 

You can setup a 4 rotor wankle in two ways. One way allows for an ultra smooth motor like I believe the scoot is, where every rotor is offset and fires on it's own. Another way is to pair 1 and 3 rotors, and offset 2 and 4, this actually allows you to run NO, repeat ZERO balance shaft and frees up the motor to rev much faster, and it has been done. The shafts that have started selling for something like $7,000 USD are the former type, designed to run smooth.

 

I've often wondered what the torque curve and max rpm would look like if you had a wankle that had a 1:1 or 2:1 shaft/rotor ratio instead of 3:1.

 

So this is hopefully brings light as to why there's such a displacement argument about mazda's wankle. For in a 720 degree cycle a normal V8 fires 8 times, and a 2 rotor fires 4 times. This is why in MANY, repeat MANY race circuits a rotary motor is rated at twice it's normal displacement. For many teams this defeats the purpose of the rotary, and makes it a marginal HP/per liter engine unless you've got a big wallet.

 

 

But can someone clear something up for me PLEASE!!!!! I've asked several people that "should" have known this, but there's no definitive answer I've been given.

 

Is 1 RPM = 360 degrees or 1 RPM = 1 cyle = 720 degrees...

 

Because in scenario 1 that means at 9k a rotor is at 3krpm.

 

In scenario 1 at 9k a rotor would be at 6krpm.

 

Oh yea, another note about the sound of a rotary motor. You have to consider that even though I've just explained that it isn't really moving THAT fast compared to a high winding F1 or anything, all the fires are comming from ONE location, and come out of ONE pipe per rotor. I believe this to be the biggest contributing fact that makes them sound like high winding engines. I single piston only fires once per cycle, and a single rotor fires twice on the same time frame. So the sound is acoustically doubled...

 

...in theory.

 

 

EDIT: Oh yea, I just wanted to state my own ideas of what I'd do myself to get an high reving V8 that sounded great. I'd do a 1UZFE. They weight way less than some people say, and they're possibly the lightest V8 with more than 4 liters. 6 bolt mains, camshaft sits directly on valve bucket, so with some super light valves, hollow camshaft, stronger valves I see no reason the valve train couldn't take 10-11k rpm. People say it's been done, but there aren't really many examples with lots of data. We know there's a 1500hp drag 1UZFE with the iron 2UZ block, but details are hard to come by.

 

Main issue is that the stroke is 3.24 inches, so at 10k those pistons are moving really really fast. If you go with braaps idea of getting a destroke crank, you can also go with a flat plan crank as well. That'd give the bottom end the ability to take the revs. I'm betting the stock rods would take it too. The early 1UZFE rods were way over built, and they've proven to handle tons of HP in boosted application. It's the stock cast high compression pistons that kill these motors, but even then they've been shown to handle 500hp on the stock 10:1 compressoin with boost.

 

Use super short exhaust and that'll help get rid of some of the lexus rumble these engines are known for. I'm envisioning 8 seperate tubes exiting out of the vender with about a 30-45 degree angle cut flush with the body... Hawt. Retro drag, but with modern style and finish. And LOUD.

 

Of course run ITB, and if you could make a F1 style intake like on the H1 V8. Sexy, and sounds great.

 

In reality it's just as much work as the SBC or SBF would be. But you have to pay for 3 more camshafts, but it's probably a more relialble base for high RPM. And you can get a 1UZFE in great shape for $500....

[Guest tweety]

hey Gollum you should have a mooch at these Mopar NEXTEL Cup motors, some seriously cool bits in there- open deck design, 6x 60mm roller cam bearings more head studs than seems possible for a small block and they run their motors really lean to keep the fuel consumption reasonable, so they are used to seeing a load of heat -oh and they rev them to about 9500 lap after lap after lap.

Now add a couple of turbos and some fuel injection.......

Which funnily enough is what's going in my 240

[datsun40146]

I just got off the phone with D and D fabrications who were very helpfull by the way. Anyway I brought up that I would like to create a high revving Buick/Rover 215 V8. I explained to him that I would like to destroke the motor to 3 liters and have a single plane crank made to fit. To which he replied well you can do just about anything if you thorw enough 100 dollar bills at it. However as a more realistic answer he mentioned that the bonneville salt flat guys use a destroked 215 to complete so those parts are out there. As far as the single plane crank is concerned he was sure that one could be made given enough time and money. Head designs could be used from several different places. He said that and I found that Volvo (yes family sedan/wagon people) valves, would fit into the 310 aluminum heads to increase flow. Also, Chevy Carrera rods (300, 310, 340) were quite a bit stronger than any of the others and can be used. I must confess this guy has ALOT more knowledge that I can hope to have for some time. I think that the 215 with some mods could be the motor we have been looking for. IE 3 liters of so, short stroke, high flow heads ect.

[datsun40146]

Here is some more 215 information

The original 215 aluminum V8 appeared in the Buick Special and Skylark models, while the Old's version was offered in the Olds F-85, Cutlass, and Jetfire models as well as the Pontiac Tempest.

The Buick version used only five bolts per cylinder to mount its heads, and the heads had a combustion chamber following contemporary Buick practice. The heads were also angled "upward" to create a "flat top" look common to Buick engines of the day. Buick altered compression ratios via piston height and design. You can bolt a Buick head to an Olds block.

Olds engineers went their own route with cylinder head design, preferring a Chevy small block-like combustion chamber and an extra bolt (six in all) around each cylinder to mount the head. The valve cover was also more conventional looking. (Ken Costello built his first MGB V8 using an Olds engine picked up in Belgium !). The valve train is also different. Old used different heads with the same pistons to produce higher compression ratios. An Olds head will not work on a Buick block because of the extra head bolts. For performance applications, you'll want either 829 heads (10.25:1 C.R. for '61-'62 4 bbl auto and manual cars, '63 4 bbl manual cars), or 534 heads (10.75:1 '63 4-bbl automatics). Two bbl heads (No. 746) have low compression ratios and aren't suitable for any performance work.

(http://www.aluminumv8.com/tech/tech.htm)

Comp Ration Follow the the order the heads are placed in

37cc Buick

38cc Olds

43cc Olds

51cc Olds

54cc Buick

 

 

Piston- Con Rod- Comp Height- HEAD- Comp Ratio

 

Vega -Chevy -1.480 -11.03, 10.77, 10.24, 9.5, 9.27

 

3.0 Ford -Chevy -1.515 11.79, 11.53, 11, 10.26, 10.03

 

267 -Chevy -1.540 10.57, 10.31, 9.78, 9.04, 8.81

 

221 Ford -Chevy -1.580 13.65, 13.39, 12.86, 12.12, 11.84

 

 

3.0 Ford- Chevy -1.535 12.29, 12.02, 11.5, 10.76, 10.53

 

 

 

Vega - 215 1.480 9.22, 8.96, 8.43, 7.69, 7.46

 

 

 

267 Chevy- 215- 1.540< (Dish) 8.76, 8.5, 7.97, 7.23, 7

 

 

 

221 Ford -215- 1.580< 11.84, 11.58, 11.05, 10.31, 10.08

 

 

 

3.0 Ford- 215 -1.535< 10.48, 10.22, 9.69, 8.95, 8.72

 

 

[datsun40146]

Does anyone have the March 1985 ed. of Hot Rod magazine? They build a Buick 215 in that and later issues. I have a small bit of it here, but I would like to read the whole thing, so if someone has a copy let me know.

 

 

Have you priced a Chevy aluminum small-block lately?

Whether procured from factory or aftermarket sources, expect to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500 to $3000. And that merely gets you a bare block. No crank, rods, pistons, camshaft, or valvegear. Not to mention the aluminum cylinder heads, which'll run around $1000, bare. No wonder most of us make do with the old "iron horses."

Well under the purchase that way for Chevy bare block, you can build an affordable aluminum V8 with displacements up to 305 cubic inches. Unbelievable? Not really.

We're speaking of the 1961-'63 Buick/Olds 215 aluminum motor, an often overlooked granddaddy of the Buick V6 that unfortunately was about 15 years ahead of its time. With over 3/4 million built, blocks are relatively easy to locate at the local boneyard. Since the motors had castiron cylinder liners, corrosion is not near by the problem it was on the linerless Vegas. While it's true that parts on the out-of-production motor are not exactly plentiful, many parts from more modern motors can be

substituted with little or no reworking.

Two individuals -

Phil Baker (Baker's Auto Repair, 19552 40th Pl. NE, Seattle, WA 98155,

[Clifton]

 

IS there another thread where the VH45 has been explored? Or would it be okay to do that some more here? I'm very interested, but I'm scared by modern (okay... even the not-so-modern) electronic engine management and how it responds to modifications. So I'm MOST interested in what mods require what know-how... (and $$) and then next: what trans can I stick on it? (I'd prefer a manual, or even better: a manual-valve-body auto....)

 

thanks guys!

 

There's a whole board for VH41/ 45's here. http://forums.nicoclub.com/zeroforum?id=193

They are very pro VH there so you may not get all the facts. Many there believe it was the greatest engine ever created.

 

VH's still use a 90* crank and sound like a 90* V8.