John Scott Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Since my engine has snowballed into the depths of my wallet, I need to budget brakes, for now. No question I'm going to drive this thing once the engine is in, but after one eyebrow raising attempt to stop from mid high triple digits with the Procharge V6, I know the stock system sux. . So...I'm probaly going to do the 4x4 upgrade. I'm not going to be racing, just need to stop from a high speed now and then. Later I'll go with a set up more fitting to the power of the engine. MSA kit for $499 w/new calipers, pads, lines.. SCCA,Ross, I'm looking for a quick fix, bolt on to get me on the road, probably need new rotors. 72 240 Suggestions? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 > I know the stock system sux But, but, but... it doesn't! Wheel to wheel ITS, EP, and old the CP class racers across the country stop repeatedly from 120 mph plus with the stock brakes. That's hundreds of racing Zs across the country at least one weekend a month for the last 30 years. The stock Z braking system works very well if its maintianed and the proper brake pads are used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Yeah, but capable though the stock brakes may be, they are pretty inadequate by todays standards. Thin, solid rotors do not absorb and dissipate heat very well. Personally, I am of the camp that says the 4X4 Toyota caliper upgrade (the early cals, retaining stock Z rotor), is a complete waste of time. It's not the first stop that sux, it's the 3rd and 4th. Too much heat. Save your time and money until you can put some big vented rotors up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katman Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Keep in mind big brakes do no good with crappy tires. JohnC was right, until you can stop 20 times from 123 mph to 47 down a hill at turn 10 at Road Atlanta with 225 series Hoosier's at race temp, you haven't explored all the capabilities of a stock system. Big vented disks are nice, but most street folks are tire limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Man, I wish we could get a definitive answer on the 4x4 brake set up. Seems like the guys who have them swear by them, and the guys who don't have them but have thought alot about them don't think they will work. I can tell you from personal experience the stock brakes are inadequate, if for no other reason then the stock master cylinder on the very early 240's had insufficient volume. I also have met more than one person who has boiled the brake fluid on the stock brakes when racing with a highly modified engine. So which is it. Do the 4x4 calipers with stock, solid rotors make a difference? Is there anyone out there who tried them but honestly didn't notice a difference? Also this guy says he got a set for $85 http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001209 OK now here I go not-trying-them-but-thinking-alot-about-them, but I can't believe doubling the size of the calipers will not make more than $85 worth of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Jim, have you looked at the 300ZX rotor/280ZX caliper front brake option? This is again a JY cheapie that uses the vented rotor and larger caliper (floater). I seems to be a fairly popular swap too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I have been looking at all of the different brake options because that will be one of the first upgrades I need to perform to get my car back on the road. My stock calipers are pretty rusty from sitting. That is why the 4x4 swap is so appealing, it is quick and I need new calipers anyway. The problem is there are too many conflicting opinions. JTR says the ZX brake swap is a waste of time but does detail the 4x4 upgrade. A number of guys on this board I have grown to trust say the 4x4 swap is a waste of time. The biggest problem is sorting out what is opinion and what guys have actually tried. I do like the idea of vented rotors but need to sift through the old posts to figure out what is involved with each swap. Some look so easy but then you will find a post describing the machining that needs to be done to make the rotors fit. I have seen Pete P's car and really like his Arizona Z car set up (except for the $$$). When I get a little more serious about it, I will go through all of the old post and try to summarize all of the options. Maybe someone has already done this? We should have a separate link on the HybridZ page for common brake upgrades with details of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I have to agree with John Coffey, People have been racing Z with Zbrakes for years and winning races too. If you are building an all out race car then maybe you should look into a high dollar upgrade, but for the average guy who is only going to drive it on the street, the average 280/300Zx stuff with the 4x4 calipers works more than adequately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Low Cost Brakes That Work Great! I have a early 260 modified for track events, The toyota 4X4 frt. calipers with (new) stock Nissan rotors (cross drilled) is great! The master cly. is the 15/16 from a 79 ZX. I do not use any brake cooling and have run car 2 years without cutting rotors(11 events). I use Carbotech frt. pads and porterfield rear shoes (with vent holes drilled in backing plate) and I have a tilton proportioning valve. I change brake fliud before every event. Never had any problems AT ALL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I think IMHO that the ppl that rave about the 4x4 solid rotor swap are ones who really didn't use their stock brakes to their full potential anyhow. The do lot's of cruising around town and are impressed by the added clamping force when they touch the pedal. Others use their for high speed stopping, repeatedly. On solid rotor it starts to heat the rotor and brake fluid. The solid rotor 4X4 will probably fade just as fast, but has more initial clamping force. Personally I would stick with stock braking system with ultra Hi temp racing brake fluid, SS braided lines, and some street/racing pads and add some cooling ducts. Properly maintain the slack in rear drums. Or go with a vented 300zx rotor, and toyota calipers, plus all the other stuff listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I'm sure that you could get 4 wheel drums to perform nicely too. But why? I see absolutely no reason to mess with the stock system. However, if you have to fix it (need new calipers or rotors or whatever), then I would go so far as to suggest that it would be foolish to replace with stock. Upgrade! I spent about $120 on my "Oxandale Junkyard" 280ZX/300ZX vented front brake setup. I would've done the vented Toyo4X4 swap, but the spacers required upped the cost. Terry's discussion of weight and required clamping forces were also very compelling. I have noticed a significant improvement in braking. And I mean on the First, cold stop as well as the repeated stops from 100mph. I noticed it with original 14 inch radials and cheapo stocker pads. With the tire upgrade braking was even better. I imagine a set of $$$ racing pads would yield further improvements. Later on I switched to the larger bore master cyl. and I didn't notice a difference. BUT, my old one was broken, so I saw no reason to replace it with the same old plain one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I have to agree with Johnc, Clint, others. Max out the capability of the stock system instead of the 4x4 calipers. The 4x4 caliper is HEAVY. More unsprung weight is not what you want. And it has a minimal amount of piston area increase. The pad area is greater, but the stopping power of the 4x4 caliper is not really that much (any?) better than a stock caliper, if they are both in good shape and USE GOOD PADS. That last part is key. Get some good pads (I really like the Carbotech ones too - the performance street pads work great even when cold.) Add a good set of shoes to the rear, make sure the system is in tip-top shape, good fluid, and you should have plenty of brakes. If you're going to upgrade, the fronts are where to start. And the only upgrade that makes sense is to USE A VENTED ROTOR. The issue with the Z brakes is fade, not clamping force. Add good vented rotors and the fade will disappear (or nearly so). Dan Baldwin will tell you the only reason to go to rear discs is to get away from having to adjust the drums for the best performance often. SCCA will probably say that, and for better looks . I agree on both counts, but if money is tight, leave the rears alone, except for get some drums that are in good shape (not to large a diameter from wear) and the right shoes. That's my opinion, based on years of watching this topic discussed here and elsewhere. I got stuck into the "got to upgrade everything" stuff on my car, and the Arizona Z Car Wilwood kit was offered to me with little use on it for half price, so I bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by pparaska:USE GOOD PADS. That last part is key. Get some good pads (I really like the Carbotech ones too - the performance street pads work great even when cold.) Add a good set of shoes to the rear, make sure the system is in tip-top shape, good fluid, and you should have plenty of brakes. If you're going to upgrade, the fronts are where to start. And the only upgrade that makes sense is to USE A VENTED ROTOR. The issue with the Z brakes is fade, not clamping force. Add good vented rotors and the fade will disappear (or nearly so). I'm going to chime in here, and be a post whore. I completely agree with Pete. In my track experience and experimentation with brake upgrades, I still get outdriven by a person who is using stock solid rotors, but a high temp brake fluid and carbon fiber pads. I have the ZX calipers, vented rotors and good brake fluid, but street pads. They work very well, and for many laps, but my braking ability diminishes from cold(not fade, they still work). I believe getting a good pad will reduce the fluid temperatures and help me brake better on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Looks like the old engineering addage 'faster, better, cheaper: pick any two" applies here. To minimize discussion, if we start with the assumption that a vented front rotor is a "must", then there looks to be a couple of options for low buck vented rotor upgrades. With all set ups it is important to buy decent pads and keep the brake fluid fresh. #1 "Oxandale Junkyard" 280ZX/300ZX 280Z calipers 300ZX vented rotor Needs a few shims to mount the caliper and need to turn the rotor to reduce the overall diameter (easily done at a brake shop) No wheel spacers and no rim clearance issues? True? Excellent write up: http://www.zhome.com/rnt/FordPower/BrakeUpdate.html #2 Toyota 4x4 calipers and vented rotors Essentially Mike's Stage 1 package http://www.fonebooth.com/brakes_zcar.html I guess the disadvantages would be this set up is heavy, requires a wheel spacer and may have clearance issues with some rims? True? Advantages: more massive caliper, possibly more piston area and definitely more pad area. Plus a very nice kit available from Mike above. One variation is to machine some Maxima rotors and avoid the wheel spacers. There are issues with this http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001298 #3 Mike's Stage 2 package with Outlaw brakes Totaly bitchin (but maybe not cheapo?) Any clearance issues or wheel spacers required? #4 Misc Have seen posting saying Jag 4 piston calipers will "bolt right up" http://www.hybridz.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001298 But this was still a swap in theory. Have seen others saying the 240 spindle is the same as a 62 chevy. Any others? Also what is the issue with wheel spacers? One post said some sanctioning bodies do not allow them. Are there any issues with changing the total wheel offset? Can this cause wheelwell/suspension clearance issues or affect handling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Jim, have you looked at the 300ZX rotor/280ZX caliper front brake option? This is again a JY cheapie that uses the vented rotor and larger caliper (floater). I seems to be a fairly popular swap too. This is what I used until recently. Combined with KVR carbon pads, 280ZX 15/16" m/c and 280ZX 2+2 booster, it was a very good option. My problem is that I have 11.5" rear brakes and could not take advantage of them and I got a good buy on 12" Vette brakes. However, they found a good home and will continue to stop a hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Originally posted by Jim Powers: #1 "Oxandale Junkyard" 280ZX/300ZX 280ZX calipers 300ZX vented rotor 240Z hub Needs a few shims to mount the caliper and need to turn the rotor to reduce the overall diameter (easily done at a brake shop) No wheel spacers and no rim clearance issues. True? True - with these changes. Note the calipers are 280ZX, and require the threads in the strut to be drilled out, and custom shims (washers) to properly align the caliper to the rotor. If this is for a 280, you need the 240 hubs. You also have to do some grinding on the caliper to clear the factory 14" alloys, but I would think any 15" wheel will clear. A true budget brake upgrade - cost me about $275 including new street pads, rotors, machine work, used calipers (rebuilt), and scrapyard hubs with new bearings, seals and rubber brake hoses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Scott Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 Sheeesh! Thanks for the replies. From what I can gather maybe I'll go with the good pads (carbotech??Where?) and fluid, for now, and save my pennies for a vented upgrade. I've got a feeling that this engine is going to really crank, I need to be driving to keep inspired, but want some stopping power. I was the one who said common sense is the best safty device.... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 *** NUMBERS FOR BRAKES *** CARBOTECH ENGINEERING 954-493-9669 PORTERFIELD 949-548-4470, Outside CA. 800-537-6842 / website www.porterfield-brakes.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deMideon Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 I have heard alot of people say use good shoes in the rear... (good pads are easy to find!). Who makes good shoes and where can I get them? Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 JTR manual says the 280zx swap sucks because of the smaller rotor, but they are not talking about the 4 lug 300zx rotor turned down like Terry (Blueovalz) is talking about. This seems to be the best bang for the buck, especially if you have a 240 with the correct scalloped hubs. $60 for new rotors, $50 for a new ZX master and a set of used 280zx calipers for $25 (That's what I paid) Near 11" rotors and vented to boot, with change back from $150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.