What characteristics of a car makes it handle better?

[RaDeuX]

So lately I've been wondering what actually makes a car handle better. Sure you could put the best suspension parts in the world, and gut out as much weight as you can. However, I don't think that is the case.

 

I like to look at Top Gear's Power Lap sort of as a benchmark. The Bugatti Veyron that weighs nearly 2000 kilograms beats the much lighter cars like the Ariel Atom (approximately 500 kilograms). Maybe if there were more corners on the Power Lap the Ariel Atom could beat the Veyron.

 

I've also gotten comments on how a car that is a much older generation does not have the kind of performance capabilities that newer cars have. Wouldn't that problem be solved with an RB swap on an S30, replace the original suspension parts with race quality ones, and install reinforcement parts like strut bars and sway bars? I mean a car is not all that complicated with the exception of the engine and electronics, so a car that is a few decades away from another is not too different. At least that's what I think.

 

So then what characteristics of a car other than its suspension settings and chassis stiffness makes it handle better? Perhaps the lower center of gravity (which is already accomplished by lowering your ride height anyway), the dimensions of the car, the aerodynamics of the body, et cetera.

 

Thoughts? Comments?

[sky40z]

weight distribution. big motor in little car without proper weight distribution and you just made a drag strip racer....sure if you have deep pockets and could afford to re-engineer a car you to can make it handle better with a custom suspension but it is just not realistic. certain cars just have limitations. the ariel atom has an amazing power to weigth ratio and just look at its suspension design.....put it on a track with a ton of twistys and the only thing that could keep up would be a bike. i put the best brakes i could find for my car on my z. wilwood 6 piston....a stock nsx has 4 piston brakes but can stop in a shorter distance because the weight is over the back load of the car....so again i leave you with weight distribution.

[Savage42]

No substitute for technology. You'd be hard pressed to find any new modern sports car that has anything like the stuff you find on a Z. Typically a double A-arm setup, better geometry, etc. All that aside, you can probably make an S30 handle as well and be as fast as many top supercars, but it won't ride as nice, would be much noisier, basically not hardly as civilized. We all try to have the best of both worlds, but decades of engineering and billions spent in technology makes it very hard to compare a nearly 40 yr old car with anything of this modern era.

 

I was at Daytona years ago for the Rolex 24 when they launched the C6 Vette. In stock street trim, that Corvette ran the same lap times as the full blown, factory Corvette race car from only 10 years prior. Vehicle and tire technology closed that gap. So, it's tough, but I've seen many old Datsuns (and other '70s & '80s vehicles) set new track records at road courses, hillclimbs and autocross due to improvements in setups with new shocks, tires, spring rates, etc. You can have it all, if you can live with a street legal race car.

[RaDeuX]

No substitute for technology. You'd be hard pressed to find any new modern sports car that has anything like the stuff you find on a Z. Typically a double A-arm setup, better geometry, etc. All that aside, you can probably make an S30 handle as well and be as fast as many top supercars, but it won't ride as nice, would be much noisier, basically not hardly as civilized. We all try to have the best of both worlds, but decades of engineering and billions spent in technology makes it very hard to compare a nearly 40 yr old car with anything of this modern era.

 

Ride comfort along with high performance is like a black art in the automotive industry. However, I believe that a true performance vehicle doesn't need to be comfortable. As long an S30 can beat those jerks in German and ricer cars who think they're the king of the road, then I'll be more than content.

[EMWHYR0HEN]

So then what characteristics of a car other than its suspension settings and chassis stiffness makes it handle better? Perhaps the lower center of gravity (which is already accomplished by lowering your ride height anyway), the dimensions of the car, the aerodynamics of the body, et cetera.

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

Your question is quite complex to me. If we're just talking about how fast a car can corner you can get an old s30 to corner just as fast as most modern sports cars today. However, If we're talking about lap times it's a whole differnt ballgame. Todays sports cars have fancy traction/stability controls, sophisticated drivetrains and better suspension geomerty which make them very easy to drive at the limit and reproduce results. The S30 on the other hand is as simple as it gets and can be a handfull to control at speed making it harder to be consistent.

 

Just take the car for what it is. It's simply a raw form of car and driver feedback which cant be found in most cars today. I like to think that's one of the s30's strongpoints and use it to my advantage. Anywhich way you look at it theres alwasy someone faster than you. I'm sure anyone can be fast with any car with enough experience behind the wheel.

[260DET]

Just look at the suspension type. The S30 was very good in its day with struts all round making it fully independant. With the right dampers etc and setup it can still perform very well.

 

But most sports cars today have double wishbone suspension or similar all round, which is a superior type of suspension to the S30's struts. Plus they have better built in geometry. Their bodies will be way more rigid than the S30's which helps keep suspension alignment under the stress of high speed cornering.

 

With strut suspension camber change is directly proportional to body roll, not so with a well designed double wishbone suspension where camber change is much less.

 

There is plenty more but...............

[RaDeuX]

There is plenty more but...............

 

Oh please, do tell

[Lazeum]

Better suspension parts might help but the main contributor to car behavior is the geometry.

 

Dependng of the geometry many variables will change such as:

- Caster (for high speed stability vs. Vivacity)

- Camber vs. Suspension Stroke (If you're in full compression stroke, how the car will handle since left and right side geometry is different?)

- Toe in vs. Suspension Stroke (ditto, stability/vivacity will change according to suspension stroke)

- Steering angle variation vs. Steering angle (what kind of feedback in the steering wheel do you want? - You want it stable with curve at high speed and very quick with slow steering change) To change this, you'll need a new steering gear...

 

Most of those criteria can be very hard to change.

What we can do is to make the car stiffer to be more reactive and to improve the feeling of the driver.

You can also play with Camber angle, Toe in angle. With stiff suspension, variation will be reduced anyway but you've never get completely rid of the initial characteristics of the car IMHO.

[B00STDZ]

One word... Bose.

 

They know what their doing. I think theyre onto something with their new electromagnetic suspension system. The best of both words... Is acclaimed to have an electronic leveler. Runs off magnets. With this leveler there is no body roll, no body movement over bumps.

 

The Bose Electromagnetic Suspension System

[johnc]

Define "handling..."

 

Are you talking about lap times, which is what I think since you use the Top Gear example. If so lap times around a race track are a combination of power, weight, traction, and balance.

 

Are you talking about responsiveness? A Lotus Elsie is about the best you can get but a Z06 Corvette will beat it on pretty much any autocross or road race track.

 

Are you talking about ride quality? Any big Citroen is the winner here and they can get around corners surprisingly well.

 

Are you talking about ultimate lateral Gs? George Bowland's series of A-Mod autocross vehicles are the clear winners here. They will crack your neck with corner loads.

 

First you need to define what you mean by handling...

[johnc]

Bose has been trying to sell someone, anyone on their suspension system since 1997. No OEM, race team, or small build manufacturer has stepped up. Why is that?

[JMortensen]

Bose has been trying to sell someone, anyone on their suspension system since 1997. No OEM, race team, or small build manufacturer has stepped up. Why is that?

Not familiar with Bose's system in detail, but the reason for its lack of acceptance might be because "active suspension" was banned from F1 in the 80s and it's a pretty good guess to say that Bose's version would also be quickly banned from any lower class that it was used in, if for no other reason than it is an "active aerodynamic device". There is a whole chapter devoted to the old style active suspension in Competition Car Suspension by Staniforth. It's a good read, and Staniforth clearly thinks its a good idea in principle. In reading the info at the Bose page, it appears that it is a similar idea and looks as though it could be tuned to do all of the amazing things that Staniforth got so excited about in his book:

 

Consider the remarkable range of things it acheived in - even by Formula One standards - an unbelievably short time:

 

It put springs, dampers and anti-roll bars in any conventional sense into the museum.

 

It managed to beat the very best of the established Grand Prix opposition twice on the rougher street circuits of Monte Carlo and Detroit, to pick up a string of Grand Prix placings, to stick tight within the first two rows of the grid almost all year (including one pole position) and post the fastest race lap twice, putting up a new record at the quick, demanding and classic home of the Italian Grand Prix - Monza. And without being unkind to the dogged and reliable Nakajima, those results were effectively achieved by one driver, the fabulous Senna, in a single season.

 

It could maintain a steady ride height with a varying load of fuel which, if it had no other ability at all, would make it worthwhile to any Grand Prix car.

 

It could abolish nose-dive under braking and squat under acceleration.

 

It could, although nobody at the time wanted to do so totally, get rid of roll.

 

It did not need bump stops, corner weight adjustments, spring changes or damper alterations.

 

It performed all the tasks of a component that designers have dreamed of - an infinitely adjustable, sensitive and variable anti-roll bar.

 

It was already able to carry out these delicate tasks despite the endlessly variable baselines of four contact patches, track surfaces, weather and altitude.

 

Finally, it not only did them, but recorded everything; critical for later analysis.

[Flexicoker]

This is a good start:

 

http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html

[JMortensen]

http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html

If you're not an engineer or haven't taken physics and calculus, this book is pretty hard to understand. I learned a bit reading it, but I'd say most of it required me looking at the math and saying "OK, I guess I'll have to take it on their word that they solved that equation correctly. Moving on..."

 

For simpler starter books, try How to Make Your Car Handle, Tune to Win, and Competition Car Suspension. You can also just search and read here. There is an amazing amount of info here. Amazing.

[Flexicoker]

Man, that book is hard to understand regardless of how much math and physics you have taken

 

.

 

What makes a car handle well is the best compromise for the given situation.

 

For example, a double A-arm suspension CAN be made to handle well, but it doesn't mean that it WILL handle well. There are so many variables to a system as complex as a vehicle suspension that there is almost never a blanket statement you can make regarding it.

[260DET]

Oh please, do tell

 

Too lazy

[RaDeuX]

Too lazy

 

[tube80z]

So lately I've been wondering what actually makes a car handle better. Sure you could put the best suspension parts in the world, and gut out as much weight as you can. However, I don't think that is the case.

 

I like to look at Top Gear's Power Lap sort of as a benchmark. The Bugatti Veyron that weighs nearly 2000 kilograms beats the much lighter cars like the Ariel Atom (approximately 500 kilograms). Maybe if there were more corners on the Power Lap the Ariel Atom could beat the Veyron.

 

You do realize much higher up the board is the Caterham R500. You don't get much lighter or simpler than one of those. Almost as fast as the Veryron.

 

So then what characteristics of a car other than its suspension settings and chassis stiffness makes it handle better? Perhaps the lower center of gravity (which is already accomplished by lowering your ride height anyway), the dimensions of the car, the aerodynamics of the body, et cetera.

 

It's simple, you need more newtons (F=Ma and the rest of this forms of this equation)

 

Cary

[letitsnow]

You do realize much higher up the board is the Caterham R500. You don't get much lighter or simpler than one of those. Almost as fast as the Veryron.

 

 

 

It's simple, you need more newtons (F=Ma and the rest of this forms of this equation)

 

Cary

 

cough*faster*cough

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

 

[tube80z]

Cool, I looked at a wikipedia entry and I could have sworn that there was a car in the 16s. Good to know the little caterham beastie punched in well above it's weight.