New Dyno Numbers

[rsicard]

This would come under my definition of 'performance maximization'...

 

Recall we gained 40HP on the Bonneville car by swapping to EFI and ITBs from identically sized Weber DCOE's. Even our dyno operator said it "You could have gotten that power with 55 Webers, but you wouldn't have had the reliability without the crankfired igniton."

 

It's all how you define tweaks and polishing. I never said idiots. I said some people just don't think any variation from standard assembly tolerances is acceptable. We put the Bonneville engine together in a Home Garage in Clairmont. It was covered with a Hefty Bag when we left for the evening. This stuff isn't rocket science, but there may be a bit of art to it.

 

If you are searching for a concrete quantification or scientific explanation, I proffer you won't get one. That would put his setup into a Factory Assembly Manual mode---the next guy goes and follows all the exact same dimensions (lets say to 5 decimal places, for argument), follows the same component list, and then yields 20, 30, 40 HP less.

 

How do you explain it?

 

Many of these EP gurus you speak of, do they punch out the engine and warranty how much power it will make before putting it on the dyno? Unlikely, they will give you a 'range' and if it's not up to their liking, it comes back apart. If it is, they go 'whew' and send you the bill.

 

But until it goes on the dyno, even knowing every component is what it's supposed to be...they don't know for sure till it runs!

Tony D: You are right on the mark. It is about the tweaks and polishing. Knowing that there are certain things that help make MORE power.

[MONZTER]

I am really glad this thread is still moving along, everybody is putting in some great comments.

Like I said before, I am no pro engine builder, I just do this as a hobby, so I don’t know what is text book correct or not. I just try to use my common sense. I have always heard the head makes the power and the bottom end keeps it all together.

You know I design bicycles for a living. Think about how many different ideas have been done before for a bike frame, So when I approach a new design it is never something obvious, and it is never anything that hasn’t been done before. what is always the difference is how the design and engineering aspects are put together. A little here and a little there all add up, and when I get it just right, wow it’s is just right. Remember it’s the sum of the parts that make up the whole project. So just an intake, or just a port job, or just fuel injection won’t do it alone. It is how all of these things act and work together, nothing too big nor too small.

So I have been working on my turbo project for years now, trying to keep the same approach of everything working together. The right size turbo, the right size header, the intake, plumbing ect. Even down to the hardware that will hold it all together. I am hoping I have the same luck when it’s all finished someday.

Hey since we’re talking about crazy welded heads, have you guys ever seen the pics of my welded CNC machined head? It was a P-90. The ports and chambers have all been designed in Pro Engineer and the CFD validation run in Starr CCM + The Plugs have been angled towards the exhaust valves and the intake ports raised as much as possible, even welded up the two center exhaust ports to make them the exact same size and shape as the others. I had to weld up and reshape the flange surface for the raised ports. The thermo housing outlet and fuel pump mount have also been welded up and shaved off, It will be running reverse coolant through a bolt on distribution manifold similar to the 432 motor.

Just like you guys are saying “how is that little cam be making good power†I want to hear how is that little turbo making 500+ HP. We’ll see.

Remember the devil is in the details:twisted:

Jeff

 

 

 

 

 

here is the intake I designed but have not built yet, You can see the cooland fitting integrated into the mounting flange

 

[Filmjay]

At OP...That is AWESOME! Yeah, the guy probably had to sign an NDA, so he couldn't tell you any details. I've tested games before for EA and Harmonix (my testing group even got a credit in "Rock Band") and had to sign NDA's.

So you MIGHT even get a credit or a "special thanks".

 

Sounds like it was an awesome Sunday.

[RUZN]

I dont care what anyone says about the Dyno Numbers on this Car.. It sounds F$*king Awesome!!!!! Almost liek my friggin CBR 900RR Honda Fireblade - about 3000rpm LOL But shiat man you can clearly see power past red line as the car even breaks loose on occasion in that Vid at like 6000rpm

[M.Creer]

I don't have much technical experience yet, but I do believe in my driving, and sense of clean fast cars. I think Monzter's N/A motor is one of the nicest I've seen and the car is equally clean. An while I am lost a little now I hope to get to the point where I can post and understand everything going on here.

[HowlerMonkey]

Best thread ever.......love that angle plug head.

 

Is the plug angling done to place the plug for the reason of flame travel or is it to get a better plug angle relative to the chamber?

[Drax240z]

I haven't read this entire thread (but most of it), but one thing is crystal clear to me.

 

STOP COMPARING DYNO NUMBERS ON DIFFERENT MACHINES

 

Any percieved performance gain of one setup over another based on dyno numbers, not only different dynos, but different brands of dynos are flawed. It's so pathetically easy to influence dyno hp numbers, and many shops inflate their numbers to keep their customers happy. As a customer you have no way of telling other than asking, and even then, every dyno manufacturer has a "different" horsepower. The only proper way to use a dyno is to use the same one over and over again and compare with itself.

 

Back to the origional thread. I think this is simply the best sounding L-series I have ever heard, and I applaud your build. It's enough to make me want to drop my turbo and build a 2.4L screamer.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Drax240z

[Daeron]

It's enough to make me want to drop my turbo and build a 2.4L screamer.

 

That first exhaust note that I can remember hitting my ear, back when I was two years old... THATS what had this effect on me.

 

Glad to see you post pictures of your "REAL" head there man!!

[Noddle]

 

Are you going to use o-rings or gasket to seal the water ports (head side of flange) ?

 

Nigel

[MONZTER]

 

Are you going to use o-rings or gasket to seal the water ports (head side of flange) ?

 

Nigel

 

I was planning on using a gasket

[iheartz]

Nice, sounds like old Zs are making a comeback. First they make it into the new FandF movie, now a video game (and all of them are HBZers )

 

 

im up next... lol, someday...

 

 

nice work, beautiful 240...

[letitsnow]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, That combustion chamber looks just like the ones on my Trickflow sbc heads. The ports really resemble some pictures of AFRs that I've seen. Did you remove the valve seats before welding?

 

That head is beautiful. Maybe someday.....

[TimZ]

Hey Jeff - is this your car? The sounds, that is...

 

http://jalopnik.com/5250435/jaw+dropping-stop-motion-vintage-japanese-toy-car-chase

[RS Speed]

wow that was a nice read, I just went through all 6 pages. I think you have done an amazing job on your car and I love the attention to detail. Looks beautiful under the hood and it runs like a champ too.

[MONZTER]

Hey Jeff - is this your car? The sounds, that is...

 

http://jalopnik.com/5250435/jaw+dropping-stop-motion-vintage-japanese-toy-car-chase

 

 

Hi Tim,

I doubt it but that is funny stuff. Thanks

 

Jeff

[Viper Guy]

I am really glad this thread is still moving along, everybody is putting in some great comments.

Like I said before, I am no pro engine builder, I just do this as a hobby, so I don’t know what is text book correct or not. I just try to use my common sense. I have always heard the head makes the power and the bottom end keeps it all together.

You know I design bicycles for a living. Think about how many different ideas have been done before for a bike frame, So when I approach a new design it is never something obvious, and it is never anything that hasn’t been done before. what is always the difference is how the design and engineering aspects are put together. A little here and a little there all add up, and when I get it just right, wow it’s is just right. Remember it’s the sum of the parts that make up the whole project. So just an intake, or just a port job, or just fuel injection won’t do it alone. It is how all of these things act and work together, nothing too big nor too small.

 

So I have been working on my turbo project for years now, trying to keep the same approach of everything working together. The right size turbo, the right size header, the intake, plumbing ect. Even down to the hardware that will hold it all together. I am hoping I have the same luck when it’s all finished someday.

 

Hey since we’re talking about crazy welded heads, have you guys ever seen the pics of my welded CNC machined head? It was a P-90. The ports and chambers have all been designed in Pro Engineer and the CFD validation run in Starr CCM + The Plugs have been angled towards the exhaust valves and the intake ports raised as much as possible, even welded up the two center exhaust ports to make them the exact same size and shape as the others. I had to weld up and reshape the flange surface for the raised ports. The thermo housing outlet and fuel pump mount have also been welded up and shaved off, It will be running reverse coolant through a bolt on distribution manifold similar to the 432 motor.

 

Just like you guys are saying “how is that little cam be making good power†I want to hear how is that little turbo making 500+ HP. We’ll see.

 

Remember the devil is in the details:twisted:

 

Jeff

 

 

 

 

 

here is the intake I designed but have not built yet, You can see the cooland fitting integrated into the mounting flange

 

 

What a great read! And to think this is just a hobby for you! Good for you. I enjoyed this vary much. Keep up the great work and positive feed back. here is a bump for ya

 

VG

[Tony D]

Remember the L4's have similar passages in their manifolds for coolant evacuation from each pair of cylinders.

Same as the LY head, and the L-6 FIA head!

Nissan put what they thought would be best for a low-horsepower street application. For serious performance work, there ARE (were) other alternatives that were far more suited to the specific application.

 

Doing my own investigation into the old early 80's turbo projects of some of the bigger Nissan Teams has uncovered many little tidbits they did to keep it all together.

 

Let's all remember they did it when it was new, and didn't have 30 years to get it right! When I think of the electronics (or lack thereof!) they had used to make the numbers they did, my hat is off to them!

[JayBee280]

For those saying this is not possible...please i ask you to stop being bottom feeders. if it made those numbers truly or not it made those numbers. And its not that farfetched ive been around honda guys making what most of you guys make on 6cylinders, when they only have 4....the power is in the head who knows what the engine power responds to the best but i believe hes making that power just from watching the video. Its actually highly possible, just gotta find the right setup not alot of people have clean N/A setups like yourself good stuff

[tech9]

Sorry to butt in, but that video of the drive is pretty damn awesome. Best sounding / driving NA Z i've ever seen!

 

Good work!

[STRATTON]

You keep saying the same thing Tony, as if I'm comparing what Jeff did to something built by a half-witted idiot in their garage, but that's exactly what I'm NOT doing. His motor makes A LOT more than a Sunbelt EP engine (using hp specs per Coffey), and makes hell of a lot more hp/liter than the motor that was built for the Bob Sharp car. It makes more than Rebello's engines (even at his suspiciously high bhp numbers). My point is that there is an explanation for it, and I'm not chalking up a gigantic hp increase to "polishing this and tweaking that". All of my examples I've listed use carbs. It could be that the carbs are a choke point for the intake. I'm pretty convinced that there needs to be a fundamental difference in order to get a hp bump of that magnitude. The only thing that it could be seems to be the carbs. That's why I said I'd like to see what he can do in an EP legal build. If the numbers remain that high and if he can transfer his advantage from engine to engine (not much market for Z engines anymore), I think he'd get a lot of business building race engines.

 

I would assume the difference in whp numbers is going to boil down to what dyno its on. all dynos read differently, mustang dyno's, dynojet dynos and dynodynamic dynos will post similiar but never spot on numbers as ive seen living in my 4 cyclinder world. also, dynos from different states seem to vary alot also, ie: north east dynos to down south florida dynos.

 

My second guess would be the difference in carburated l's to his fuel injected l. i skimmed the thread but is this car running a stock 280z ecu or a aftermarket standalone. i would wager that being the huge factor in him making more whp then most.

 

but it boils down mph in the 1320.

 

beatiful zed by the way !

 

stratton.