Supra Running Gear in a Z?

[Spydr26]

Hello all, been lurking for a while and finally getting at it.

I have a 71 240 that I have gutted and would like to make a nice street machine with the possibility of some track days.

Thinking around the 300-400hp mark, I plan to beef up the frame significantly to handle the extra hp.

I have the opportunity to pick up an 87 turbo Supra with the 7mgte cheap, and was thinking about also using the front and rear suspension from the Supra.

I figure I can graft on the sub frames for the front and rear Supra suspenion to the 240.

It is a double wishbone suspension with 5 bolt lugs and sway bars front and rear.

Just wondering if anyone has done this already (the suspension not the motor) and if anyone can think of a reason why it is a bad idea?

I would appreciate any input.

Thanks,

[jc052685]

If you dont already know that the S30 will handle 400whp fine then I doubt you have what it takes to "graft" MA70 suspension onto the car also.

[rturbo 930]

I somehow don't think the F+R suspension from a Supra will fit under the S30, width wise. You need to get a lot of measurements to see if the swap is even feasible, or if the benefits would be worth it.

[Spydr26]

wow JC aren't you king **** of the universe.

I never asked if the 240 could handle the power, I said I am beefing up the frame, personal choice.

I am looking at the Supra parts because it does alot of things for little investment:

Modern suspension, lsd rear end, steering rack, 5 bolt lugs etc...

Let me decide what I can and can't do, nice attitude, wanker.

 

I realize the Supra stuff will be wider however I am fairly certain flares will compensate for that.

I was looking for any info if anyone had actually done it, I saw some posts about interest in it but nothing further.

[hoov100]

wow JC aren't you king **** of the universe.

I never asked if the 240 could handle the power, I said I am beefing up the frame, personal choice.

I am looking at the Supra parts because it does alot of things for little investment:

Modern suspension, lsd rear end, steering rack, 5 bolt lugs etc...

Let me decide what I can and can't do, nice attitude, wanker.

 

I realize the Supra stuff will be wider however I am fairly certain flares will compensate for that.

I was looking for any info if anyone had actually done it, I saw some posts about interest in it but nothing further.

 

 

There is no need for a "modern" suspension, when the s30's suspension has proven itself to be just as good. I suggest you go and read through the suspension section and see what people have done in the past with suspension swaps. If anything, the only thing that really needs to be improved in the front suspension setup, but even that's pretty easy with a little ingenuity.

[19762802+2]

wow JC aren't you king **** of the universe.

I never asked if the 240 could handle the power, I said I am beefing up the frame, personal choice.

I am looking at the Supra parts because it does alot of things for little investment:

Modern suspension, lsd rear end, steering rack, 5 bolt lugs etc...

Let me decide what I can and can't do, nice attitude, wanker.

 

I realize the Supra stuff will be wider however I am fairly certain flares will compensate for that.

I was looking for any info if anyone had actually done it, I saw some posts about interest in it but nothing further.

 

If you didn't want constructive answers why did you post the question? I'm sure Jc was trying to say that the 240z can handle the power and with less modification or basically You don't have to go all out to achieve what you want. Also the suspension may be to wide for the underbody of the Z which would require a lot more modification then just added flares, whenever trying to graft suspension designed for another car onto a different frame you most likely will end up with a lot of modification depending on the suspension and frame. Why not go with the s13 suspension swap? its been done, its modern and has its pros and cons also. I can see where you might be wanting to try something new and thats fine.

Edited September 16, 2010 by 19752802+2

[jc052685]

wow JC aren't you king **** of the universe.

I never asked if the 240 could handle the power, I said I am beefing up the frame, personal choice.

I am looking at the Supra parts because it does alot of things for little investment:

Modern suspension, lsd rear end, steering rack, 5 bolt lugs etc...

Let me decide what I can and can't do, nice attitude, wanker.

 

I realize the Supra stuff will be wider however I am fairly certain flares will compensate for that.

I was looking for any info if anyone had actually done it, I saw some posts about interest in it but nothing further.

 

What things do the MA70 suspension do that the S30 does not? Only benefit I see is it being 5 lug and better brakes. For the hours invested in a suspension swap why not just build your own equal length upper/lower control arms and fabricate a set of QA1's under the car?

 

BTW the S30 has no "frame". And a cage will do all the strengthening you should ever need. There are plenty of other companies making tubular/adjustable control arms for these cars as well as probably a dozen different coilover kits. Also plenty of brake swaps too. There is a factory LSD diff you can find if you are willing to look hard enough. What is wrong with the factory steering rack? Maybe you have not seen all of the 5 bot conversion stuff floating around. And why the need for 5 lug?

 

All of these things just bolt on for the most part. What more do you want?

[FlatBlack]

wow JC aren't you king **** of the universe.

Let me decide what I can and can't do, nice attitude, wanker.

 

Seriously??

 

Go to another site if you just want people to agree with whatever willy-nilly idea you dream up.

 

Calling him a wanker for giving advice. Really?

Edited September 16, 2010 by FlatBlack

[Meph]

for all the extra work its probably a lto more sensible to upgrade the stock components with readily available parts, and check the toyota l6 forum for engine swap details. 7m's are known for a lot of different issues, im really happy with my 1jz swap

[Spydr26]

What advice did he give, he insinuated that I was too stupid to acomplish the project without knowing anything about me.

Therefore he is a wanker.

 

I thought this was hybrid Z, is everyone afraid of a little hard work, or is it because it is a Toyota.

I didn't ask for anyones 2 cents. I asked if it had been done, or if there is a legitmate reason why it can't be done.

I don't care if you don't think it is a good idea.

The 7m's are fine, I have read about them.

Again I didn't ask for your opinion about my motor choice.

 

Forget it delete this post.

[19762802+2]

What advice did he give, he insinuated that I was too stupid to acomplish the project without knowing anything about me.

Therefore he is a wanker.

 

I thought this was hybrid Z, is everyone afraid of a little hard work, or is it because it is a Toyota.

I didn't ask for anyones 2 cents. I asked if it had been done, or if there is a legitmate reason why it can't be done.

I don't care if you don't think it is a good idea.

The 7m's are fine, I have read about them.

Again I didn't ask for your opinion about my motor choice.

 

Forget it delete this post.

 

Everyone was just looking for your best interest such as giving their opinions on better options for suspension and engines. No one is afraid of hard work and their are lots of members who have done some awesome stuff but you also shouldn't have to do more work needed when there are methods already out there that can be equal or greater then some new ideas. If you really don't care then why did you say "I would appreciate any input" Don't ask if you don't want a reply that may be constructive criticism.

 

In before the shed, also you can edit your own post if you feel necessary to erase what you said.

Edited September 16, 2010 by 19752802+2

[jc052685]

What advice did he give, he insinuated that I was too stupid to acomplish the project without knowing anything about me.

Therefore he is a wanker.

 

I thought this was hybrid Z, is everyone afraid of a little hard work, or is it because it is a Toyota.

I didn't ask for anyones 2 cents. I asked if it had been done, or if there is a legitmate reason why it can't be done.

I don't care if you don't think it is a good idea.

The 7m's are fine, I have read about them.

Again I didn't ask for your opinion about my motor choice.

 

Forget it delete this post.

 

 

You did not answer ANY of my questions.

[hoov100]

What advice did he give, he insinuated that I was too stupid to acomplish the project without knowing anything about me.

Therefore he is a wanker.

 

I thought this was hybrid Z, is everyone afraid of a little hard work, or is it because it is a Toyota.

I didn't ask for anyones 2 cents. I asked if it had been done, or if there is a legitmate reason why it can't be done.

I don't care if you don't think it is a good idea.

The 7m's are fine, I have read about them.

Again I didn't ask for your opinion about my motor choice.

 

Forget it delete this post.

 

Because of this:

I would appreciate any input

 

And this

Just wondering if anyone has done this already (the suspension not the motor) and if anyone can think of a reason why it is a bad idea?

 

 

Do a little (lot) more research on this and actually understand and comprehend what you intend to do, as when you say "I'll just graft on new subframes after I beef up the non existent frame" tells me you know nothing about what you actually plan on doing.

[kamikaZeS30]

On unibody reinforcements: I welded in the bad-dog frame-rails. Called it a day. The car feels really solid, now.

 

I am still learning about angles/travel/caster/camber/toe (and how it effects the cars attitude) but from what I've read it seems like the stock A-Arms are actually really decent (other than they're not adjustable), they're the strongest for their weight-- at least that's what I am told.

 

I am right around that 400HP mark you're going for, and also at about the same in torque (before 4000 RPM, yeah, baby). I run the Tokico "blues" with the ground-control coilovers, and I replaced all of the rubber bushings with either prothane or energy suspension, the rest of my suspension is otherwise stock (I did do the bump-steer modification described in the JTR manual) and it's a blast to drive. I'm with the others that the stock suspension, with the right aftermarket components (poly bushings, right struts, right coils-overs and the right spring rates will take you a helluva long way) is more than adequate.

 

I'm unimpressed with the 7M/MkIII Supras, they're much heavier than the S30, yet surprisingly enough, they're much more "flexy." I would be wary of using suspension components from any other car, for fear of weight gains (in the places it makes the biggest impact).

Edited September 16, 2010 by kamikaZeS30

[RTz]

Spydr26, Tone it down.

[Pharaohabq]

Hello all, been lurking for a while and finally getting at it.

I have a 71 240 that I have gutted and would like to make a nice street machine with the possibility of some track days.

Thinking around the 300-400hp mark, I plan to beef up the frame significantly to handle the extra hp.

I have the opportunity to pick up an 87 turbo Supra with the 7mgte cheap, and was thinking about also using the front and rear suspension from the Supra.

I figure I can graft on the sub frames for the front and rear Supra suspenion to the 240.

It is a double wishbone suspension with 5 bolt lugs and sway bars front and rear.

Just wondering if anyone has done this already (the suspension not the motor) and if anyone can think of a reason why it is a bad idea?

I would appreciate any input.

Thanks,

 

 

If you've been lurking a while, then you know this is not a malicious atmosphere. So don't jump on anyone who disagrees with you. Perhaps JC was harsh, but your retorts didn't help your case.

 

As for your Swap Idea. I personally haven't seen anyone do it, Though Mark on here is Swapping Vette suspension into his 240Z VQ project in the Nissan V6 forum. Look into the suspension forum and see if anyone's done anything other than S13 suspension. It would be interresting to see how your Toyota Suspension swap compares to S30 Suspension in weight and performance. They'd said the S30 suspension was ahead of it's time, and I believe it in a lot of cases. So If you have reason that the Toy Suspension is better in your opinion then Go for it, Blaze that path. If it's amazing then people like JC can eat their hat. But without specific examples of why it's better, and worth the swap effort, you might not find support for your attitude. The Toy Engine swap has been done, but for the cost there's cheaper solutions to get to that power. But hey, it's your car do with it what you will, and F anyone who tries to tell you you Can't do it. So Go for it and show us why it's better and don't forget the picts, we love picts.

 

Phar

Phar.

[Spydr26]

Thank you Phar for your response.

I was going to bail on this thread but after reviewing it I think I will try again.

I do apologize for being harsh, i guess I was just turned off by JC's response to my first posting here.

 

Let me add this, I can get the complete car(Supra)for about $1000.

It is a low mileage car and my understanding is that the R154 5 speed is a very good transmission, the rear end being an lsd as apposed to the vlsd in the q45 is a better option and can handle gobs of power.

The 7m for me is a cheap may to get a modern fi,twin cam,turbo motor. My understanding is that they have very stout bottom ends and can handle major power upgrades. The head gasket issues are an easy fix and they have good aftermarket support as opposed to the vh45. I would love to do an RB motor swap however the intial cost and parts availability limit that option.

 

So with that in mind I felt that the addition of the front and rear sub frames from the supra would give me a modern and strong supension, being designed in the mid 80's as opposed the late 60's.

it is generally held that a double wishbone is better than a macpherson system, I understand this will be a point of debate however that is the general concensu.

The use of this supension in my mind was to get the 5 bolt lugs (free upgrade) to have access to a better selection of rims, and potentially better supension upgrades in the future.

The brakes and steering rack should be better designed and easier to replace. I understand all these options are avilable for the S30 however the cost difference between and parts avilablilty should favour the Supra. Although I am not certain of that fact.

I understand that some major problems will creep up, like the width of the suspension to the car and will the suspension fit or even work in the Z.

This was the kind of info I was looking for.

Preliminary measurments say I am about 10 mmm to wide with the Supra stuff. but this is just a rough guess so far.

 

As I am not independtally wealthy, I plan to complete my car in stages, but I want to get the foundation right the first time.

 

Oh and I'm not an idiot I know there is no "frame" in the Z, but when you connect both sub's like I plan to do and replace most of the sub frame with new metal, then it is almost a "framed" car.

 

Now does this make anymore sense, or am I still way off base?

[kamikaZeS30]

the rear end being an lsd as apposed to the vlsd in the q45

 

A VLSD is still an LSD, the Torsen differentials that Toyota used didn't arrive until the JZA70 Supra. Otherwise, they're all CLSD. Also, you don't get much stronger than the R200/R230 differentials, unless you start looking at some of the crazy rally rear ends or domestic muscle.

 

I agree that the 7M is a good motor (I would've actually considered it instead of the 2JZ, just on cost vs. performance), and the R154 would probably make a good transmission to go with it. I would look at what your gear-ratios are going to be though, I wouldn't use the Toyota diff, just because the R200 is already a bolt in swap and we know from some of the other members on this board that it will withstand repeated beatings.

 

I still don't understand the impetus for swapping the Supra suspension into the Z. Really, a few minor, low-to-no-cost modifications (such as changing the roll-center by raising the LCA-K-bar mount point 7/8") and some stiffer bushings on the T/C rods makes a huge difference in the attitude of the Z.

 

So with that in mind I felt that the addition of the front and rear sub frames from the supra would give me a modern and strong supension, being designed in the mid 80's as opposed the late 60's.

 

Except that the Mk. II/Mk. III Supras had more issues with chassis flex than even the S30s, and were 750 pounds heavier. Have you looked at http://www.baddogparts.com/ ? There are probably a half-dozen different places that sell weld-in unibody reinforcements for the early Zs, bad dog was the one I chose because it was cheap and still makes an immense difference in stiffness. The suspension in the Z isn't "weak," I can't tell you how many of them with the stock LCAs and spindles I've seen take heavy track/street abuse.

 

I'm not knocking your project. I just think you will ultimately end up spending a lot of time, probably more time than you think (cause that's how it goes with any car project), for something that won't give you noticeable gains, but could end up taking you one step back (adding a lot of weight)-- I am talking about the suspension/subframe modification. If I were you I would definitely buy that Supra (a decent shape MA70 for $1000, where do you live?!) keep the motor and tranny for yourself (maybe the seats if they're in okay shape) and sell the shell to make back some of the money.

 

 

The brakes and steering rack should be better designed and easier to replace. I understand all these options are avilable for the S30 however the cost difference between and parts avilablilty should favour the Supra. Although I am not certain of that fact.

 

What's wrong with the Z steering rack? Unless you plan on having power steering, but in such a light car who needs it? There are tons of awesome home-brew cheap brake upgrades for the Z (there's a thread full of them in that subforum). The Toyota Hilux 4x4 4pots both vented/non-vented are great, relatively cheap swaps, and 280zx/maxima brakes for the rear.

 

I guess it really depends on your definition of "better," quite honestly, I think you're just looking to add a bunch of weight. The steering rack in the Z was designed for the Z, it's lightweight and will hold up to the abuse most people can dish out, the Supra steering rack was designed for the Supra, not the Z. It'll probably work best with the Supra suspension geometry, which may change when you try grafting it to the Z.

[Tony D]

Seriously??

 

Go to another site if you just want people to agree with whatever willy-nilly idea you dream up.

 

Calling him a wanker for giving advice. Really?

 

 

"Legitimate" reason for not doing it is terribly subjective, if you leave open-ended phrases like that in a post you ask for what you get in return. I know plenty of legitimate reasons not to do some things, yet people will discount them nonetheless.

 

If this is an engineering exercise for the point of doing it SAY SO UP FRONT. Putting in statements that "you have read about the engine" gives the impression that you aren't operating in the real-world sphere of possibility.

 

I wouldn't touch a 7M if you gave it to me. Bad experiences in the past.

 

2JZ, different story. Cheap, plentiful, a real popular swap into BMW's here in Thailand.

 

But a 7M? I got to go with the above comment about it's host being a boat and the suspension being a wash.

 

Get a ZX and start with a competent platform to begin with if you want 400 (+) horsepower to be useable. Then you can go 5 lug with ease and it's a bolt-in swap.

 

But again, unless you are competing where a 5 lug is mandatory (for instance 200+MPH at Bonneville...) why bother?

Edited September 18, 2010 by Tony D