SEMA Legislative ALERT - Fuel

[ZWOLF]

Belonging to the SEMA Action Network cost nothing and is something that as car enthuasist we should all support!

 

 

REGULATORY ALERT (UPDATE)

 

SAN Members Say “No†to More Ethanol in Gasoline

 

 

The SEMA Action Network wants to thank the hundreds of members who asked President Obama to stop the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from raising the ethanol content in gasoline. The SAN worked with a number of other organizations to generate more than 22,000 total e-mailed letters. The collective effort spanned a broad cross-section of industries, including boating interests, grocers, convenience stores and, of course, car enthusiasts.

 

 

 

The EPA is expected to rule by late October on whether to raise the ethanol content in gasoline from 10 percent (E10) to 15 percent (E15) for late-model cars. It could permit the use in other cars at a later date.

 

 

 

The SAN is opposing the initiative due to concerns that the additional content will harm automobiles of all ages, including special interest collector and historic vehicles. Ethanol increases water formation in the fuel system, especially when the vehicle sits over a period of time. Under these conditions, formic acid is created which corrodes metals, plastics and rubber. Ethanol also causes engines to burn hotter which could lead to premature engine and equipment failure. The EPA has no procedure in place to adequately protect against misfueling or to ensure that gasoline with no ethanol will continue to be available for owners of older vehicles.

 

 

 

We will let you know when the EPA issues its decision. Meanwhile, we are taking this opportunity to thank our SAN members for their effective response. Questions/comments may be directed to Steve McDonald at stevem@sema.org.

 

Original Action Alert: http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=62807

[cockerstar]

I really wish we could go back to gasoline with no ethanol in it. I was seeing a 12% reduction in fuel economy when the switch was made, and remembered looking for the gas stations in town that hadn't made the switch.

 

I'm very pleased to hear that the message has been brought to their attention!

[jc052685]

So how exactly does ethenal make the engine run hotter?

[BLOZ UP]

But... I'll just richen up my fuel tables to offset it...

[JMortensen]

So how exactly does ethenal make the engine run hotter?

Just guessing here, but leaner equals hotter. I would also guess that the flame from ethanol is cooler than a regular gas flame, so there would be some offset there. That would not be my main gripe against ethanol. [deleted]

[sq_creations]

The fuel I run in both of my cars is up to 85% ethanol already. What should I do. lol just kidding. Its suppose to be.

[TimZ]

[deleted]

 

On the question of whether it runs hotter, Jon's answer is what they are getting at. If left uncompensated (as would happen in a carbureted engine) the E15 will run about 3% leaner than E10, or about 6% leaner than pure gasoline. I'm having trouble believing that this is going to cause a catastrophic increase in temps unless you were on the ragged edge to begin with, especially considering that ethanol burns cooler to begin with.

 

All this aside, I'm not that thrilled about the potential switch to E15 - I'd rather they leave E10 alone and do more to proliferate E85. If E85 could just reach critical mass then we could all have a real choice. I mostly found it disappointing that SEMA would perpetuate the confusion, half truths and internet legends out there, especially when they do have members that sell products for E85 too.

[ZWOLF]

I think that SEMA's concern, and mine, is that older vehicles (and not much older) were not designed with components entirely compatible with alchohol. The biggest problem with ethanol fortified gasoline is the reduced shelf life when used with products that see limited useage (ie; Boats, Chainsaws, Pressure washers, Log Splitters, or even your vintage cars). I have the avilabilty of buying fuel without Ethanol but only use it in applications that see infrequent use. My daily driver get the fuel with Ethanol and I sure wish it lasted longer than it does.

[cockerstar]

ZWOLF,

 

How does one go about buying pure gasoline?

[JMortensen]

[deleted[

[ZWOLF]

ZWOLF,

 

How does one go about buying pure gasoline?

 

A Sunoco station close to me offers fuel without Ethanol. I believe that they are ordering Marine fuel, which in my opinion is even better because it's a mid-grade and they attempt to stabilize the shelf life. Perfect for anything that is going to see only occasional use, and limited use then.

[deleted]

[z-ya]

ZWOLF,

 

How does one go about buying pure gasoline?

 

Race fuel.

 

My beef with ethanol in gas is that it creates all sorts of problems with carburetors, pumps and fuel tanks. Some marine tanks are fiberglass. Ethanol eats right through it. It tends to take any residue in the tank and dislodge it so that it can travel into the carb. It clogged the carbs twice in my ZRX1100 (until I started using Stabil Marine). Anyone running carbs these days should always use an ounce per 5-10 gallons. Cheap insurance. I run it in everything with a carb now: bike, lawnmowers, boat, etc.

 

http://www.amazon.com/STA-BIL-22239-Marine-Fuel-Stabilizer/dp/B000UJG0LE

 

 

Pete

[SHO-Z]

Don't expect to see 15% any time soon. Gas Station would have to add new tanks and pumps for the stuff and few would expend the cost for the changes.

[Tony D]

[deleted]

[ZWOLF]

This just in from Hemmings.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/12/23/legislation-e15-battle-royale-brewing/?refer=news

[johnc]

Guys, leave the government and politics out of this discussion. Focus on the technical aspects of E15.

[Tony D]

Like it or not, there are still many many carburetted vehicles out there.

 

Like when CA changed over to the new blends which worked fine in EFI cars, if you have a carb on your car, you just suck it and live with what's available, warts and all.

 

Technical Aspects of E15? 5% worse than E10 I guess in my daily driver...

[Oddjob]

Here's some technical grist for the mill, courtesy of a long Wikipedia article:

 

"In theory, all fuel-driven vehicles have a fuel economy (measured as miles per US gallon, or liters per 100 km) that is directly proportional to the fuel's energy content. In reality, there are many other variables that come into play that affect the performance of a particular fuel in a particular engine. Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle will result in a 34% reduction in miles per US gallon , given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline. Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, the engine can be made more efficient by raising its compression ratio. In fact using a variable turbocharger, the compression ratio can be optimized for the fuel being used, making fuel economy almost constant for any blend. For E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gasoline), the effect is small (~3%) when compared to conventional gasoline, and even smaller (1-2%) when compared to oxygenated and reformulated blends. However, for E85 (85% ethanol), the effect becomes significant. E85 will produce lower mileage than gasoline, and will require more frequent refueling. Actual performance may vary depending on the vehicle. Based on EPA tests for all 2006 E85 models, the average fuel economy for E85 vehicles resulted 25.56% lower than unleaded gasoline. The EPA-rated mileage of current USA flex-fuel vehicles should be considered when making price comparisons, but it must be noted that E85 is a high performance fuel, with an octane rating of about 104, and should be compared to premium. In one estimate the US retail price for E85 ethanol is 2.62 US dollar per gallon or 3.71 dollar corrected for energy equivalency compared to a gallon of gasoline priced at 3.03 dollar. Brazilian cane ethanol (100%) is priced at 3.88 dollar against 4.91 dollar for E25 (as July 2007)."

 

Note: The energy content of ethanol is 21.2 MJ/l, compared with 34.8 MJ/l for regular gasoline (no ethanol). So trying to run ethanol in a non re-tuned Z would result in an extremely lean mixture and a very substantial performance penalty.

[TimZ]

Here's some technical grist for the mill, courtesy of a long Wikipedia article:

 

"In theory, all fuel-driven vehicles have a fuel economy (measured as miles per US gallon, or liters per 100 km) that is directly proportional to the fuel's energy content. In reality, there are many other variables that come into play that affect the performance of a particular fuel in a particular engine. Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle will result in a 34% reduction in miles per US gallon , given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline. Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, the engine can be made more efficient by raising its compression ratio. In fact using a variable turbocharger, the compression ratio can be optimized for the fuel being used, making fuel economy almost constant for any blend. For E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gasoline), the effect is small (~3%) when compared to conventional gasoline, and even smaller (1-2%) when compared to oxygenated and reformulated blends. However, for E85 (85% ethanol), the effect becomes significant. E85 will produce lower mileage than gasoline, and will require more frequent refueling. Actual performance may vary depending on the vehicle. Based on EPA tests for all 2006 E85 models, the average fuel economy for E85 vehicles resulted 25.56% lower than unleaded gasoline. The EPA-rated mileage of current USA flex-fuel vehicles should be considered when making price comparisons, but it must be noted that E85 is a high performance fuel, with an octane rating of about 104, and should be compared to premium. In one estimate the US retail price for E85 ethanol is 2.62 US dollar per gallon or 3.71 dollar corrected for energy equivalency compared to a gallon of gasoline priced at 3.03 dollar. Brazilian cane ethanol (100%) is priced at 3.88 dollar against 4.91 dollar for E25 (as July 2007)."

 

Note: The energy content of ethanol is 21.2 MJ/l, compared with 34.8 MJ/l for regular gasoline (no ethanol). So trying to run ethanol in a non re-tuned Z would result in an extremely lean mixture and a very substantial performance penalty.

 

Not sure how they got the $3.71 number - this appears to be assuming a ~42% energy/mileage deficiency. If you use the 25.56% number quoted in the text the equivalent price is more like $3.29. That's considerably cheaper than what 93 octane goes for, and if you look at what 109 octane leaded Turbo Blue is selling for here (~6.59/gal) this looks a LOT more attractive.

 

I agree with Tony that this is more of a problem for the carb'ed crowd, since you'd possibly need to recalibrate the carb. As I said before, I'd prefer to see them put more effort into proliferating E85 rather than upping the mix on "regular" gas. E85 is a more deliberate choice and would give better choices for the consumer. My biggest problem with the SEMA notice was that it vilified ethanol in general and made some pretty stretchy claims about the negative effects that were more applicable to running E85 in a gas calibrated engine rather than E15, which would not be very smart. There is a lot of misinformation out there and this wan't helpful, IMHO.

 

Also, talking purely about the energy content per volume doesn't tell the whole story. While you get less energy per volume, max power rich is also richer than what is productive for gas. So, you can generally expect ~5% more power from a properly tuned engine on E85 from the fuel alone, before adding any boost or compression allowed by the higher octane number. You'll also find that EGTs run about 200 degF cooler for an equivalent tune on E85.

 

It's interesting that the thing that gets talked about most is the mileage decrease, even on sites like this one where performance is the main objective, and nobody even blinks at engine swaps that more than double the displacement, or running more than triple the stock boost levels.

Edited December 27, 2010 by TimZ

[Canadianz]

In Canada we run up to a 15% ethanol content in most of our gas. They call it "ethanol enriched" or something to that effect. I really wouldn't be too worried my brother and I run our Z's, one carbed with tripples and one with an RB and no problems. As well our Lancer Evo runs on it just fine (91 octane too ). I really wouldn't be too worried our cars are stored all winter, in the Z's case so thats 5 months or more sometimes and there are no horrible effects, even on the carbed engine. We used to be able to get 94 octane but with the loss of Sunoco its harder to find. It too had 15% ethanol in it. So from our experiences we have never seen any damage to our fuel systems, I am more concerned about getting a bad tank of fuel on a hot day than the alcohol content. I don't think this will change much for our American freinds as I am sure everyone tunes for whatever the best fuel available, carbed or FI. Unless you run a really bleeding edge race car or something to that effect (which would probably be tuned often anyway), there really isn't a need for concern. E85 is an entirely differnt animal in itself, which is well documented on this forum as well. So don't worry about your carbs self distructing or your gas tank melting away on a 15% blend. Its all we can run and its ok!