LS/T56/240z Project Mentor Wanted

[RebekahsZ]

I am about to start the project of putting an LS/T56 in the 240Z I have owned and worked on for 17 years. This is a street-legal track car that is shiny on top and bottom, but gets driven very hard at events. I'm looking for a mentor who has done one or more LS swaps. I will buy an engine/trans drop-out in November and start collecting parts, hoping to start hard into the swap in January. I want to do a straight-forward, clean install, hoping to keep it as simple as possible with the goal of being at the local drag strip in the Spring with drag/autocross throughout the summer. I want to keep it simple and avoid making avoidable mistakes and spending money on things that really don't matter, but I don't mind spending money to save time and aggrevation. Clean fit and finish desired. Body, interior and chassis is already sorted out. I want to alter my stock wiring and fuel system as little as possible. No posers, punks or tire-kickers, please - only answer posts if you know what you are talking about.

[RebekahsZ]

Shopping for a drop-out. I want to go fast without having to modify the donor motor/trans. Is a 2005/2006 6.0 GTO LS2/T56 a good drop-out unit to use? Any swap problems/issues with this model compared to others? Is there a better power vs. dollar LSx unit to use? Any issues with the belt-driven accessories or oil pan, etc? I have a source within 1-hr drive.

[Pzary3233]

Welcome to the LSx game! I too am working on an LS swap but in an M3.

 

The first thing I would suggest is to read read read and read some more! But more importantly ask questions.

 

Here's my little bit of advice... You want to be able to corner hard (Obviously because going straight sucks ), you need a good fuel pick up and fuel slosh prevention in the tank. A drop in electric pump assembly would work wonders here. You need more 50psi or so, a LOT more then your carbs. I'll dig up some links in a moment but that would be a good start. You'll need to plumb a feed and a return line for your fuel system. So I'm sad to say that the fuel system will have to be altered a good bit to provide a good basis for your swap.

 

Tanks, Inc. makes drop in fuel pump kits that will feed an LSx motor

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=61/home_id=61/mode=cat/cat61.htm

 

The other option and something you might want to research is how much of the 280z EFI fuel system you could borrow and adapt.

 

You Then need a fuel filter and regulator. GM did us swappers a GREAT favor in the '99 vette. This little gem is not only a filter but a regulator as well!

 

Check out my two blog posts...

Fuel System Planning: http://lsxe36m3.com/?p=25

Fuel System Parts: http://lsxe36m3.com/?p=100

Fuel System Install: http://lsxe36m3.com/?p=114

 

I grabbed my filter and adapters from Speedway Motors, they had the BEST price by far.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/LS1-Fuel-Delivery-Kits,41791.html

 

I would also not go with the braided stainless again... it sure looks nice but it's function seems to suck. With Ethanol in the gas it breaks down the lines faster and people are getting that gas smell with them after short periods of time. Earls has some hose called their "Twist Loc" Which I am going to re plumb the system with at a future time.

 

As far as filter placement I would put it towards the front of the car so that you do not vapor lock the pump and allow the fuel to "cool" before it returns to the tank.

 

One last thought... Behind every good fuel system is a good fuel pump.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Pzary3233

[Pzary3233]

Shopping for a drop-out. I want to go fast without having to modify the donor motor/trans. Is a 2005/2006 6.0 GTO LS2/T56 a good drop-out unit to use? Any swap problems/issues with this model compared to others? Is there a better power vs. dollar LSx unit to use? Any issues with the belt-driven accessories or oil pan, etc? I have a source within 1-hr drive.

 

It depends on what the ULTIMATE goal is.

 

The LS2 is a drive by wire motor, IF you want drive by wire great, if not then you will need an LS6 intake and an Ls1 throttle body along with the associated harness and PCM. I personally use the Vortec Truck harnesses because that is what I can get my hands on AND it has longer wires to nicely tuck things where I want. If you want drive by wire (and I don't really suggest it because you're removing safety features built into the oem system) you need the pedal, control box, and all associated wiring from that as well to make the PCM control the motor correctly.

 

Otherwise I really like the LS2 motors. The T56 If I remember correctly has a slightly different shifter position but I could be wrong on that.

 

I was going to also suggest that depending on your end goal, you might drop the T56 in favor of a well built 5 Speed like the TKO500 or TKO600. They are lighter and better shifting transmissions that can handle more power. But that is modifying the donor motor and transmission.

 

I do suggest checking the clutch and flywheel and at the least replacing the clutch and resurfacing the flywheel if not a lightened flywheel. It's no fun to have to replace that shortly after it was installed.

 

When you're serious about trying to find a swap, let me know I can get just about any Motor/T56 you want.

[palosfv3]

What suspension., differential and brake system is under your car ? How fast do you want to go ? How much do you want to spend ?

I sure you have read through most of the LS threads. There is a lot of good info posted but you have to really read through it carefully. I recently added up the costs on the LS conversion we completed at our shop last year and in just the partsexpenses totaled over $30K. After going through this build I would change several items, suspension arms and wheel/tire combinations, rear axle ratio. There is a hell of a lot more work and planning needed to make this swap really work well . Its a little more involved than what your first impression can be. Not to be discouraging but to many make it sound like its just getting a engine/trans and a weekend worth of work and your up and running.

[Cable]

Shopping for a drop-out. I want to go fast without having to modify the donor motor/trans. Is a 2005/2006 6.0 GTO LS2/T56 a good drop-out unit to use? Any swap problems/issues with this model compared to others? Is there a better power vs. dollar LSx unit to use? Any issues with the belt-driven accessories or oil pan, etc? I have a source within 1-hr drive.

 

Where are you located (city/state)?

 

The '05-'06 GTO LS2/T-56 is a decent engine/trans, however you will have to change the alternator bracket to a '98-'02 F-Body. You will also have to change out the GTO LS2's oil pan, oil pickup, and windage tray from a '98-'02 F-Body or '05-'07 LS2 Y-Body (Corvette).

 

Depending on how much you can get the dropout setup for it still might be worth it. Generally in my experence, the truck engines are much more cost effective dollar for dollar (see this post for more detail: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/92580-down-on-truck-engines/ ). The LSx mounting kit from JCI (www.BrokenKitty.com) is the only way to fly IMO. There are two shorty header options available, however I am developing a set of a long tube headers for production as we speak ( http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/95480-who-is-genuinely-interested-in-buying-lsx-long-tube-headers-for-s30s/ ).

 

Most will agree here on Hybridz that I know my stuff, albeit sometimes a little direct. I have done more than a few LSx swaps (25+), including a few S30's. I am usually pretty up to date on things and happy to help. Feel free to PM any questions you have that might not need an entire thread started to answer.

 

Take care.

[RebekahsZ]

Interesting about the fly by wire, hadn't considered that; was mostly thinking about 400hp/400lbstq...Lets consider the the opposite end of the spectrum: 5.3 iron block with a 5-speed and a carburetor kit: Is there a no-brainer kit to allow joining the 5.3 with a 5-speed and fitting it in a 240z? If there is, we may be onto something. I can get a 5.3 at a wrecking yard near my house for $800 with no accessories. But, a nice carb is $500 and the manifold and control box is $800. A clutch kit will be about $500 and a fresh 5-speeds is $1400...Now I'm at over $4k...which really isn't bad if compatible parts are available so that I don't get bogged down in a bunch of parts that won't work together...

[RebekahsZ]

Cable: Thanks. Have seen your header thread. I'll look at the truck thread and PM you if I can figure out how. Direct is good. Thanks.

[Cable]

Interesting about the fly by wire, hadn't considered that; was mostly thinking about 400hp/400lbstq...Lets consider the the opposite end of the spectrum: 5.3 iron block with a 5-speed and a carburetor kit: Is there a no-brainer kit to allow joining the 5.3 with a 5-speed and fitting it in a 240z? If there is, we may be onto something. I can get a 5.3 at a wrecking yard near my house for $800 with no accessories. But, a nice carb is $500 and the manifold and control box is $800. A clutch kit will be about $500 and a fresh 5-speeds is $1400...Now I'm at over $4k...which really isn't bad if compatible parts are available so that I don't get bogged down in a bunch of parts that won't work together...

 

$800 is way too much IMO for a 5.3 missing things. I can get complete turnkey 5.3's with all accessories, harness, PCM, sensors, MAF, etc for less than $600. Even with freight, its a better way to go.

 

The drive by wire or DBW is super easy to deal with. Too many folks raise a stink because they are scared of it or something. Keep the factory EFI. You won't save a dime going with a carb after buying a carb and the correct intake manifold and ignition box.

 

The T-56 is also a great trans for your goals. Yes, a World-Class T-5 will also work, but its a much weaker trans and really wouldnt save alot of coin.

[RebekahsZ]

Last post of the night (central time zone). Just read entire LS Truck motor thread. Manual trans is mandatory for me; all else is optional. I don't see many adds for COMPLETE T56 assemblies with a clutch and pressure plate, but I may not be looking in the right places... What do you think about a 5.3 w/ LS6 cam kit, LS6 intake and a T56 with some sort of electronics to make it work? Would I be better piecing that together or just buying a 2002 Camaro pull-out? Also, is the 5.3 oil pan good for 240z, or am I looking for a 2002 Camaro pan either way? If dollars were equal would you go Camaro LS1 or GTO LS2 with a Camaro oil pan kit? I'm old enough to know that this car will always will suffer some compromises as a road race / drag car. It will never be great at either, but is already respectable as both (for a n/a 2.4L). Already very quick around the cones, and the guys at the dragstrip love my cute little sissy car, but I don't want to be in the 10-second 1/8th mile bracket anymore!

[Pzary3233]

If you're looking into 5.3s you may want to look for the '04-'05 L33 5.3 It has 799 heads (LS6/LS2 casting without the goodies) and an aluminum block. This was an option in 4wd trucks. Mostly Z71s. This was a "Hotter" motor then the usual LM4 and other Iron 5.3 blocks. That is the motor I am using in my build.

 

5.3 engines are getting more expensive... the days of $500 complete 5.3s are over... we have had to mark ours up to keep the supply of good motors. We used to have 100s of them laying around and would core good motors... That has since changed... A lot. We sell long block 5.3s daily for $700. That is without accessories, harness, etc. That is now the going rate with warranty. Can you find them for less? Of course! But you get what you pay for...

 

I would read through the Drive By Wire thread on here a bit more before you embark on a DBW build. Yes it's not hard to get it to work, but the safety and redundancy that was built into the stock system is stripped away when taking it out of the donor vehicle.

 

AS far as the oil pan goes... Either way you are looking for a Camaro oil pan, windage tray and pickup tube.

 

I would stay away from the carb set up, you'll have more money in it then an LS6 intake, harness (if you diy), injectors, fuel rail, and PCM. Besides EFI is great!

 

The WC T5 would be an ok transmission for your power goals but it will break. I would suggest a TKO500 or TKO600 depending on which gearing you like more. I still don't understand why everyone is on the T56 bandwagon when these transmissions shift a lot more smoothly then the T56 and dollar for dollar are a better deal (Compared to an equally built T56 not a stock one).

[m1noel]

I would read through the Drive By Wire thread on here a bit more before you embark on a DBW build. Yes it's not hard to get it to work, but the safety and redundancy that was built into the stock system is stripped away when taking it out of the donor vehicle.

 

???

 

I'm using the stock pedal, wiring, and computer from the donor car. It was extremely easy to install, didn't have to purchase any linkage parts, and don't see how safety is compromised at all. Just my thoughts.

Mike

[Pzary3233]

Because the ECU has other inputs that we do not use when we swap drivetrains, that all help to create a safety net in the drive by wire.

 

I too felt that DBW was just fine.

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/95321-drive-by-wire-280zx/

 

I am now more gun shy about DBW swaps.

[Blown77Z]

Cable knows his **** for sure ! All of the previous responses hit on the MAJOR portions of the swap. Just follow most of the build threads to get an idea of what other people did. That's what I did when I built mine. Another thing you will have to think about is the rear end. The stock 240 R180 rear end with the stock axles = eventual failure behind the LSX...

[mxgsfmdpx]

Not to be discouraging, but you really need to read and research more (which it sounds like you are doing.) Awesome.

 

I have learned so much about this swap by just reading on here for hours and hours. Not just reading a thread but studying it and reading it again, really understand what you are doing on each different part of the swap; and what parts you need to get it done.

 

This is a lot more than simply getting an engine, tranny, wiring harness, and ecu; then spending a couple weekends doing the swap.

 

Some key elements to keep in mind that you didn't mention...

Suspension/Wheels/Tires/Brakes: What set up do you have? Having more power is awesome, but can be negated with traction/poor handling issues. Wider wheels with wide sticky tires are needed, as well as a good suspension set up for traction and handling. For braking it looks like you might have the factory brakes? You will be doubling the hp/torque output of your car, it's a good idea to double your braking ability by switching to good disc brakes at all four corners.

Rear End: Your stock R180 will be a definite weak link. Visit the drivetrain section, I spent about 15 hours reading that section alone. Amazing info there.

 

Fuel System: Your stock fuel tank will also be a problem in a couple different areas. Fuel slosh is an issue, and well as the delivery to the fuel injected LS motor. You will need to modify your tank, use the F Body or equivalent tank, or an aftermarket fuel cell. An upgraded fuel pump/filter is needed, as well as new fuel lines (feed and return line included.)

 

Replace the easy things: There is no better time to replace wear and tear parts then when doing an engine swap. Make sure the transmission/diff don't need rebuilds, replace the clutch/flywheel, drive belts, spark plugs, injectors, head gasket,water pump etc etc etc. Don't skimp out on doing the easy things, while it's an easy time to do them!

 

Excited to watch this build, have fun!

[RebekahsZ]

I really appreciate the suggestions. I put the pictures of my car on my lead post to try to discourage folks from telling me about all the distracting things that will waste money and time. The car has great brakes with racing pads and stops on a dime, a full coilover system with camber plates. It has a new LSD with rebuilt axles and u-joints. It has all new hardware on the drivetrain. It has a clean gas tank, a new and serviceable fuel system with clean lines. I have never experienced fuel starvation (or slosh) while autocrossing or drag racing. I have run an electric fuel pump before so all the wiring is there and I should only have to switch to a high pressure unit. The chassis is clean, rust free and all insullation has been removed. It has no interior save for seats, rollbar and dashboard. I have owned and raced this z for 17 years.

[RebekahsZ]

Have any of you installed an LS engine with a new, clean, stock radiator? Has anyone tried this, and suffered from overheating before going to an aluminum unit? Has anyone retained the stock fuel lines-are they truly inadequate? Has anyone retained the stock fuel tank and just added an aftermarket high-pressure fuel pump, filter and regulator? If so, was the stock wiring to the fuel pump ok? What is my best option for a "stand-alone" engine wiring harness and ECU? Have any of you actually broken your R180 before switching to an R200? Specific experiences from builders/racers only please.

[RebekahsZ]

I talked to an LS supplier in my region. Barry at bksautoliquidators@yahoo.com. Anybody dealt with him? He specializes in wrecked LS GTOs. He is about 2 hours away and can deliver the drop-out. Question: Is the GTO T56 compatable with the JCI mounting system and driveshaft? Is the Camaro/Firebird T56 any different from the GTO T56? Any preferences?

[Blown77Z]

Have any of you installed an LS engine with a new, clean, stock radiator? Has anyone tried this, and suffered from overheating before going to an aluminum unit? Has anyone retained the stock fuel lines-are they truly inadequate? Has anyone retained the stock fuel tank and just added an aftermarket high-pressure fuel pump, filter and regulator? If so, was the stock wiring to the fuel pump ok? What is my best option for a "stand-alone" engine wiring harness and ECU? Have any of you actually broken your R180 before switching to an R200? Specific experiences from builders/racers only please.

 

I had my stock 280z tank boiled/recoated for me. It works great.... however, I had to add inlet/outlet fuel fittings for my aftermarket fuel lines. I do believe the 280z gas tank was the only one that came with internal baffles... I'm also using a high flow external inline fuel pump bought from JCI and an Aeromotive filter and FP regulator. The stock wiring was fine on my car for the fuel pump.

 

You can have the STOCK ECU flashed for cheap. VATS, secondary O2 sensors, EGR, AIR is what most people have removed from the programming. This is what I did for my swap.

Wait4meperformance

Edited October 27, 2010 by Blown77Z

[cheesepocket]

Specific experiences from builders/racers only please.

 

Funny. Don't be afraid to use the search function, as has been referred to several times.

 

Welcome aboard the LS train.

 

+1 on wait4meperformance. The wire harness and PCM are not insignificant parts of the build. I had them do up the harness and PCM from a '98 Trans Am, and after some careful wiring, my car started up and ran fine on the first try.

 

Also +1 on Tanks Inc. I know it looks to be easier to adapt your 280Z tank and I've read of people doing that on this forum. But if you want to start with all new stuff, their universal tank with in-tank 190 lph pump is pretty nice, and allows for room on both sides for serious exhaust. You would just have some fab work, including removing the spare tire well, to mount it.