Need some help with college (longgg rant)

[josh817]

Hey guys. Some background info, I'm a sophomore at UTA for Aerospace Engineering.

 

My problem that I have right now is I am not enjoying anything that pertains to the subject, at all. I failed calculus (90% fail rate at UTA), made a D in Physics, and just took a test in Chemistry "For Engineers" which was the second one that was ridiculous, I'll probably at best skate by with a C. Now I understand college isn't meant to be easy but this is horrible. I'm going to try to word how I feel, as accurately as possible so any ideas you may have will be helpful.

 

First my list of complaints:

1)Anything that has to do with engineering, it seems UTA automatically makes ridiculous. 90% fail rate in Calculus? I took Cal 1-2 in one semester senior year in highschool, made and A and a B. I understand this is college now. So I expect a fair C for Calc. One and haven't even made it to Calc. Two yet. 90% fail rate, and that's with supposedly the "best" teacher on campus according to statistics and Ratemyprof.com. I admit, he explains things well and they have tons of free services to help you. I did perfect on the homework, raped on the test. The class was too focused on whether you could follow instructions. Why? Because he handed out 50 problems twice a week. Fine with me. 2 hours worth of homework turned into 10 pages and 6 hours each night because he wanted you to write out the instructions from the book, show work, answer in complete sentences. This is easy, its busy work but painful. Here is where I disagree; when grading, he tells his people to grade only 5 problems which is fine. However, say he grades problems 10-15, if on problem 2 you didn't write something in complete sentences, your paper doesn't get graded and you get a 0. This really wasn't a problem for me, but its still ridiculous.

2) Just took a Chem test and it was also ridiculous. Why do I hate that class? Because he is the type of teacher who has the mind set of "a 70 is a good grade in my class". Really, why? My idea of grading is if its perfect, you get a 100, if you have minor (seriously, minor) errors, its a 90, and if you missed a few here or there its an 80. 70 is barely skidding by. However he seems to think otherwise and his tests show since class overage was a 62. In a room of 200 students, if a 62 is a class average, its not the students fault its his fault for being a sucky teacher. A good test isn't one that has a below 70 class average. I view this as just another thing that college throws at you. However shame on UTA for making a Chemistry for Engineers (different then general chemistry by far) and choosing him to be the professor.

3) I feel like I am fighting against the current. I don't expect for this to be easy but I also don't expect to not be able to pass ANY engineering class. I made A's and B's in English, history, political science, drafting/autocad, etc. As soon as you enter into Physics, Calc, and Chem, all for engineers, its ridiculous. This qualifies under what I said in #2, a failing rate that's high, doesn't make you a good engineering school, it means you aren't doing something right. As I previously stated, I feel like I'm fighting up current. I feel like UTA is trying to fail me out rather then help me PASS. I didn't say help me make perfect grades but just to PASS. I know you may be saying well there are tutors, make study groups, talk with the professors, maybe its your study habits. I admit I have a hard time trying to effectively study. I have had several classes where I study in bulk for hours a night a week before a test and still bomb the test. That's not the problem though, otherwise I wouldn't have done well in any class.

 

First semester during orientation, UTA gathered the students, you were all crammed into a room with your adviser and then he TOLD you what classes you will take. Then they put us in a room with computers and said select your classes. When you were done you were scooted along so someone else could use the computer. AKA no one used rate my prof, we didn't learn about that concept until 2nd semester. However this meant there were some of us that had the same schedule. There were 7 of us, this was our friend group. We studied together for all classes. This is important because my brother in law who has graduated as an engineer said I need to make friends so when you get into your professional courses you know people to study with and do projects with. So I thought hey I'm on the right track. By the time we finished Calc. 1, 2 of us had passed barely (not me). Because of this, we automatically get put onto academic probation and then we can't move onto the next courses because the way the degree program is setup you take cal 1, 2, 3, back to back. You bomb 1, then you can't take a handful of classes that require it. So now our friend group is dead. My second semester I'm a hermit, but that's ok because it was English, history, those sort of courses, I did fine. This semester in Chemistry, I see one of my buddies from Calculus. He is in Calc. 3, but Chemistry has killed him and Statics. I call him just last night to see if he is ready for today's test and he said he's dropping chem and changing his major, which is what struck this whole thing up. So, out of all of us friends, we either failed or just left the program. I am friendless now and getting closer to my professional courses, if I can even get through. I was under the impression that these classes are weed out classes and it will get better once you're in the department. If I'm wrong, I don't want to have anything to do with engineering at UTA.

 

Ideas like go to another school are possible but I ask myself, how many times will I switch schools, retake classes, etc. before I finally get it. All that wasted time and money and I'm just spinning my wheels. How many failed courses is it going to take for me to say its the school, or its the class, or its my studying, or perhaps its just not for me. I wanted to be an engineer because I love building things and working with my hands and I was good at math. The true test started coming with Calc. 1 and 2 in highschool. Now I'm in college and you go further than Calc. 1 and 2. Its difficult and when I try my hardest and can't get it, I get a sour taste in my mouth for the subject. I'm starting to wonder if being an engineer just isn't for me. I constantly tell myself that these calculations won't come around to haunt me in my career with whatever company but I am 95% sure that it will. Knowing this, I'm not to sure if I want to go down that path. Like I said, I don't mind a challenge but if I barely scoot by college, A) who will hire someone with a horrible GPA (not my worst fear), B.) will I even be able to do the tasks they ask of me?

 

I look at my girlfriend and she's a first semester nursing program at UTA. Apparently UTA is really good at nursing too. What did they do? They have to take an Intro course the size of 30 people and it sounds dinky but its all about making friends and participating around campus. They make them sign up for clubs and talk to certain people. She has many friends that will probably stick with her through her college years. I have 0 friends, going down a path that requires teamwork and group effort studying. I try to make friends and when it happens, like I said, we don't all make it through certain courses and some just get tired of it. I haven't met a single engineer at UTA that hasn't gotten raped in a more then one class. I was told to talk with the alumni from UTA engineering departments. I can try but I don't see how that would work. When this is a barrage of ridiculously hard classes, the few that make it through with their sanity are the ones that are alumni. Generally speaking they will have stories of how they either A) spent a lot of years and money just to get there, B.) it was easy for them because they're brilliant, C) say they had difficulty but pulled through. So being super smart, not me, having difficulty, that's me, but "pulling through"? May not work out, and then spending a lot years and money to just to graduate, no that's not me. That would be filed under the "at what point do you change majors and find something you enjoy rather than wasting a hell of a lot of money and 6-8 years of your life retaking classes until you get it, if you get it."

 

So after that long rant, I'm seriously considering changing to a different major before I sign up for a second semester of classes that lead me in the wrong direction. I want something that I will enjoy, and that pays well. When I talked to my chem buddy who dropped on the phone, it was the first time we had a serious moment. He told me he wanted to be an engineer for the money but after seeing what its all about, he hated it. I don't necessarily hate it, but I can't see myself doing these calculations for my career. I'm good at math, I like math, I don't want ridiculous math. I'm thinking about maybe changing to Accounting. I was also thinking a teacher but if any of you guys have read some of my stuff, I suck at explaining things if I'm even right to begin with. Accounting has numbers, taxes, etc. I Like that stuff. I can work on a computer all day if I have to. I looked at the career outlook and accounting is skyrocketing like nursing is. I've seen estimates of $40-56k salary, which is fine by me. I don't need to be rich but I don't want to be in a financial hole. My mom is a teacher for over 25 years, she gets around the salary I just mentioned. Single mom, two kids in college, she has her tight months but we still have the finances to have family fun and live in a nice town.

 

I figure I can be like my father and have a job that doesn't require him to design things or do ridiculous calculations but instead he gets his mechanical enjoyment by working on his personal race car at one time. I have my Z, as long as I have the funds to tinker, have a race weekend every once and while, I'll be happy. I think when I said I liked doing this sort of thing, I meant on a hobby level, not on a serious, build a bridge if it falls lose your job, level.

 

So after that huge rant, my mom would typically say "so whats your plan". I'm meeting up with my adviser to discuss next semester courses. My adviser is also a professor for the AE department. I want to ask him if once I'm in the department, will this nonsense end. Will I have a relationship with my professor? Will I be a name and not a student ID number, unlike all these classes that have 200 students and 20 pass? No matter how hard you try to interact with the professor, he doesn't care who you are or your problems. I can voice these opinions to instructors and UTA all I want, it won't change anything obviously. The answer I will get is "welcome to college", which is one I would typically assign to some boob who expects his teachers to give him a free A. Hopefully you understand that's not what I'm looking for, nor am I looking for special privileges. As you can see, I went in with the hopes of perhaps having a ridiculous class every once and a while but having that feeling of "woo, I made it through, never have to go through that again" but when there is a barrage of these classes and when its likely that your career is based on that stuff, then no.

 

I don't know if its a good idea to tap out and change majors. My direct family would be disappointed in me. They were all saying "be an engineer, its a prestigious job, you love that sort of thing, you won't have any trouble finding a job because its a great degree". To them, changing degrees would be a sin, if I didn't bother going to Tarleton University (where my brother in law went and everyone loves him) and giving it a shot. Its a smaller university and Kyle keeps in contact with his professors even though he has graduated. Of course he speaks highly of the school and everyone but my dad wanted me to try that school to see if I do any better. Once again, how much money and time will I invest before I decide yah I like it or no I hate it? If I say its not for me, I will then be at Tarleton, a place I don't exactly love (out in the country), and the only reason why I packed everything up to go out there was to pursue something I may or may not like. At this point it would be a bad idea to call up the people who adore Tarleton and say help me pack my stuff up and transfer over to the school that gave me hell initially. That wouldn't make sense to them.

 

 

Thoughts? Degree advice (good pay, good demand, math, etc.)

 

 

EDIT: Oh yah and I'm trying to get into Calculus and Physics at our community college but can't even score high enough to place in Calculus. My highest score had them saying I need to start 4 classes below Calculus. That's 2 years of math just to get into a class I should have had my first semester. Granted I only took the test once and surprised me. Obviously it would be over precal, which I haven't had in almost 4 years now. I was planning on retaking it ofter reviewing through an old precal book I have. Even then their scoring system says I need a 105 to get into Calculus, I was making an 80-something, and its 20 questions no calculator. Not sure how their grading system works but I obviously didn't know enough to take Calculus.... even though I have now taken Calculus twice, I know what its about.

Edited October 26, 2010 by josh817

[jt1]

The first couple of years in engineering school aren't to teach you engineering. They are to establish basics, and to see who has the determination, desire, time management skills, discipline, and basic talent to be a good engineer.

 

I was pretty frustrated my first couple of years. I went to a small, rural high school where all I did was sit in class and make straight A's. No study skills, no time management, no educational discipline, and liked fast cars, women, and parties way too much. I nearly flunked out my first year. At first, you're loaded up with a lot of boring grunt work, long hours, high pressure schedules, and never ending labs, to see who wanted to be there. It wasn't hard to get into NC State School of Engineering, they let anyone in. It was hard to stay. 18% of my freshman class graduated.

 

My best advice is to talk to as many seniors and grad students as you can, and see what kind of projects they're working on. If you have a fsae program, try to talk to some of those guys. Talk to some real working engineers about what they do at work. If all that interests you, then you've got to decide if you want to tough it out and stay. If you're not a pretty strong math student, engr is gonna be even harder, so take that into consideration. If you decide to stay, it's gonna be a lot of work and you've got to commit yourself to do it.

 

Best of luck with your decision.

 

John

[rturbo 930]

Sounds like the problem isn't your major, but your school. Switch schools dude. I failed Calc twice, but that's because I was a dumbass and didn't go to class. Take it currently now, and I got a 90% on the first test, with a horrible teacher that wants us to show all our work. Pales in comparison to yours though.

 

Sounds like UTAs engineering program is bullshit. Or at least their calc classes.

 

As for the chem professor, I totally agree! I haven't had a teacher like, that, but a guy on another forum once told about a professor he had that didn't give As because they were reserved for perfection. I don't like professors thinking they're clever by having BS rules like that. It's really just stupid.

[josh817]

Yah I understand what you're saying. No one said it would be easy but honestly I am not enjoying it at all. I resent college and I hate resenting it. I tried to get myself excited but anything that has to do with engineering, its that sour taste. Last semester I was actually eager to get to economics, this semester I'm eager to get to political science.

 

I'm so tired of hearing my friends talking about how excited they are to go back to school at the end of summer. I want to be excited to but instead I wish I was in high school again. My buddies are to the point where they are bored with coming home to Keller and being with their parents, they count down the days they have left in Keller so they can go back to their apartment/dorm. I'm the opposite. I think last night it finally clicked for me when my one friend that I managed to have another class with (and hopefully more classes) said he wasn't interested in it and maybe it just wasn't for him. Not only did he put the bug in my head but because he was like the last survivor who didn't change degrees or universities, hearing him say "maybe I'll see you around" I was like now I have no friends and if I make more, will they all fail out or leave too?

 

For math, I'm good at it but not as good as I use to think. I just excelled at it at first probably because it clicked for me but not for others. For the longest time I was the math wiz and made better grades than everyone but it was a "growth spurt", if you want to call it that. Calculus 1 and 2 were the classes that put me in my place. Little Johnny who I use to make way better grades than is now making the same or slightly better than me in Calculus. My talent leveled off. If I were to make an accurate prediction, probably by Calculus 3 I'd be busting my butt to make sense of it. The math part of engineering would be difficult for me.

 

Just got off the phone with Mom and she was surprisingly calm when I mentioned it.

 

 

Rturbo:

I think the problem may be that certain teachers, generally older, have forgotten what its like to be a student. Or perhaps "back in their day" they didn't do the things we do or face the things we face. From what I've seen in all other classes, teachers within 10 years of getting their PhD's or whatever are generally pretty cool dudes. They aren't easy tests but they teach in a way that they know will work. They utilize computers and powerpoint slides rather than a blackboard. They know how to grade a test. Perfect is 100, I made 85's and higher, which is ok by my standards. I try to avoid saying its UTA Engineering Department because the definition of being "good" seems to be open. I'd argue that being good doesn't mean the system is built in a manner that kills everyone but a few but then again, you have to weed out the crowd like JT said. They're good because the people leaving with their engineering degrees worked for that and made it through the mine field. As I stated before, they either stayed for like 8 years and persevered, they were smart and got it without a fight, or it was tough but they managed. However that brings up another issue but its more like an all around "its just how it is" type of thing. That is, if someone gets a different teacher who isn't as anal, they pass with flying colors and they may not even know the material as they should. Therefore some just get the pick of the litter while others get the crappy teachers. Without a set standard on tests and grading policy, how is any degree legitimate. The university trusts in the teachers to make good judgment and setup a system that works but lets get real, once the teachers teach for so long they can't be gotten rid of unless a major infraction occurs (I forget what the term is for that). There are some that just make retarded systems knowing nothing can happen.

Edited October 27, 2010 by josh817

[JSM]

Yes, I would go the community college route to get the basics out of the way like Calc and Chem. Not fun courses. If I could have stayed off, ahem, mind altering things during those years, I would have been a Dr now! I digress into early years of stupidity though.

 

My dad always taught me, just get the stupid piece of paper, they teach you what they really want you to do on the job. So far he's been right on. (I know not applicable to every job.)

 

Don't get sucked into the mentality that it really matters you went all 4 years to a university. To me some of the smartest folks I've run into went to Community College or none at all.

 

Just my .02.

[JSM]

Side rant and this is not saying this is you Josh, but my 16 year old has got it made in High School. If I could go back to school I would get straight A's. Public schools are a joke. They (Gov. Schools) have made it so easy to pass. The things they tolerate now and the level at which the teach suck in my opinion. Make up work, late homework, 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances, it is crazy. Now I know I'm in FL and schools are not that great down this way, but still. I know it is a double edge sword too.

 

I say all this because I believe my son is going to be in a world of hurt if and when he decides to go to college. I don't think college standards have changed as they are privately funded to a point. High school standards have slacked from my experience (working with my son) to simply move the masses through and some politician can look good by saying look at how many have graduated.

 

All smoke and mirrors.

Edited October 27, 2010 by JSM

[josh817]

Side rant and this is not saying this is you Josh, but my 16 year old has got it made in High School. If I could go back to school I would get straight A's. Public schools are a joke. They (Gov. Schools) have made it so easy to pass. The things they tolerate now and the level at which the teach suck in my opinion. Make up work, late homework, 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances, it is crazy. Now I know I'm in FL and schools are not that great down this way, but still. I know it is a double edge sword too.

 

I say all this because I believe my son is going to be in a world of hurt if and when he decides to go to college. I don't think college standards have changed as they are privately funded to a point. High school standards have slacked from my experience (working with my son) to simply move the masses through and some politician can look good by saying look at how many have graduated.

 

All smoke and mirrors.

Oh trust me I know what you mean. My mom has been a teacher for over 25 years and the past couple of years things have been going down hill. Without getting too much into politics, I honestly think it was the no child left behind thing. They didn't fix anything, they just lowered standards. Mom gets pissed about it because get this, she's a 6th grade teacher and the principal has now announced to the staff that late work can't be punishable. NO POINTS TAKEN OFF. I'm young but BACK IN MY DAY you had 30 points off for 1 day late AKA best you can do is pass. Mom describes it as a joke, the accommodations she now has to make. She's told that if a student is doing poorly, make him have tutorials during recess. She laughed because recess is 8 minutes long. By the time a 6th grader sits down and focuses, recess is over.

 

She has told me this year will be her last. She went to the doctor and asked about a stress test, apparently 3 other teachers have been there about that. Mom says she's meeting up with her teacher friend and hubby because the hubby works some government job. Apparently the government is hiring tons of people (wonder why?) and with that job it is set hours. From 9-5 he works. One day he tried to stay a little after to finish up something, they told him to go home. He said he will take his work home and finish it up, can't do that its confidential. Mom wants that. She's tired of having to start her day at 7 and end it at 6 or 7 after all her meetings with parents and staff. Then she has to grade papers when she gets home. All this with no pay raise. They asking Mom to go paperless. That's great but their computers are old and never work even with a technician. I remember being in 6th grade and the log in never worked.

 

So there is some insider tidbits from the Texas education system as it is today.

 

 

My academic adviser who I'm speaking to seems to be as clueless as the others. Last time I saw him I said I was planning on going to a community college. He asked me why, with like a surprising look. I wanted to be like

 

"Are you even real? Is there someone sitting in that chair or am I all alone and going insane? You have my grades right in front of you. You are a professor in the department that fails over half its students out and you've been working here for how many years but you can't seem to understand why I want to go to a community college for these credits?"

 

To cut to the chase. I'm still just a name on a list to him. When I went through orientation we were told numerous times to interact with our academic advisers since they will be with us every step of the way and "guide" us. When I failed calculus I asked him how to go about it, what are my options. He said to just take it again next semester. Was there any thought to that advise? Once again, are you even real? Do you exist or are you just a figment of my imagination, just another one of those little people in my head that always mislead me. Retake a class known to crumble you.

 

To say the least, in two days when I go back, any crap he pulls will be dealt with an increase in vocal volume considering his door is open during the advising.

Edited October 27, 2010 by josh817

[rturbo 930]

You might try going to a smaller school. I get the feeling you have pretty large classes where you don't even have a chance to meet with the professor. None of my classes have more than 40 people. Some of my teachers even know my name, depending on the way the class is taught. I don't really like my school but one thing I will miss about it is definitely the class sizes. Feels a lot like high school in that respect. I think larger classes would definitely be detrimental to your academic success.

 

That no child left behind thing is BS. What ever happened to sink or swim? In the real world, or even college, late work won't fly. I don't get how that mentality could even be considered acceptable.

Edited October 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[Challenger]

It seems like now everyone has to succeed even if they physically cant. People who are lazy, incompetent, stupid shouldnt be given the same treatment as people that work hard and succeed. My fluids HW is due at 10:00am. 10:01am and you get a zero, no excuses, zero.

 

I am glad I went to a small school. My classes are like 20-30 students.

 

Ill first ask, what is your definition of studying hard? Are you studying like a a few hours a night or all day. I and all my other engineering friends dont really do anything by study. Engineering classes are lightyears ahead of any english or political science class, and they take that much more effort. I literally do nothing but study. Generally Ill get to school 8-10am and Ill study till midnight or later. I do have class and generally work about 1.5 hours a day at my work study job but the rest is studying.

 

At my school freshman year is cake, sophomore year you think your super cool with all your engineering classes but most of them are pretty easy compared to the junior and senior courses. Once you get into fluids, thermo, and heat transfer youll know what hard is. From the sound of it, if people arent passing calc and physics, I cant imagine how hard thermo would be...

 

As for community college, I think everyone should do it. Its cheap, and will let you decide what you want to do. I did running start in highschool where I went to community college for my junior and senior year. I was able to get all my math out of the way, physics, gen. ed classes, etc. Once I transferred to my four year I started into the engineering courses.

 

I cant say for sure but it sounds like the engineering program there sucks. You might consider transferring to a different school. What it comes down to is your parents arent making the decisions anymore, your in college now and your pursuing what you want. Dont let their desires or bias affect your decisions.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Challenger

[josh817]

Lol good advise but scary at best. I really wish I started out as an undecided major. Undecided's get to take classes from any program, without being in the program. Allows you to poke your head around and see what you like. The only reason why I didn't transfer this semester to a different school (Tarleton) was because I had so many unknowns. Housing, courses, registration. I didn't want to rush in it. I talked it over with my dad and I know his true intentions are to keep me lingering around Arlington so I can work on the BMW that he knows I'm not interested in however he did make a good point. IF I went to Tarleton I would have to change my degree to mechanical. With AE, there are like 20 kids. He said think about it like this, all you guys graduate, company has 10 spots. 50% you get hired, as compared to ME where there are 200 graduates. Plus he said something, I think he pulled it out of his ass but it was "an AE can do the job of an ME but an ME can't do AE"........................... I kinda rolled my eyes at that one.

 

I'll honestly say that when I get into this degree, I wasn't thinking about the future. I wasn't thinking about job stability, security, if I can even get a job. I just said hey I'm good at building ****, hey I kinda like airplanes lets do that it sounds cool. As you can see, the way I view things now is I never really wanted to sit down and design all this crap. I like designing and building as a hobby. I'll build myself a shed, not an airplane. I awnt to look at other alternatives that can satisfy my demands, as stated before, opportunity, stability, security, salary, those sorts.

[BLOZ UP]

0 Friends? I see how it is.

 

You're pretty much in the same boat I was (and still am, really). I hate to reveal this on the internets, but I think I'll survive.

 

I've been in college for 7 years. The first 3 were at a community college, where I just took the basics and tried out what I thought my major would be, computer science. I was tempted to switch to English after I dropped Cal 1 there. Then I transfered to UWYO, which was a great school. The math was still getting me but I loved the COSC professors and courses. Unfortunately, pretty much none of those courses transfered to UTA when I transfered here in Fall '07.

 

The **** started to hit the fan at UTA. I failed Cal 1 twice. Well, I got a D the second time, but it doesn't count anyway. I stopped and took a look back at myself and found that I barely studied, worked 20-30 hours a week, had 2 houses (it's complicated...), a pool, horses, cats, cars, and a girlfriend/wife to maintain.

 

So, after taking classes full-time for most of those 7 years, I decided to go part time. I wish I had done this earlier. When I started out in community college my parents insisted that I had to take 12 hours or more. For some reason, I always assumed I had to do this and never considered taking less. Big mistake. I wasted a lot of time and money (my parents and now mine) and credit hours getting a full load and then dropping half of the courses after census date anyway.

 

So, now I'm studying more, actually doing my homework ahead of time, reading the chapters. You know, all the stuff they recommend. While I can't say I didn't "have time" before to do this, I just managed my time poorly. Knowing that I can't just flip my attitude over just like that, I decided taking 6-10 hours per semester would give me more room to breathe.

 

So, the problem, I believe, started in high school. I slept through it without opening very many books. All I took away from HS was how to take tests. That is, how best to take a test when you do or don't know the subject matter. I passed Cal AB with an A and failed BC in high school (after I discovered it wasn't necessary, I just slept), but only Pre-Cal was required to graduate, so I thought I would be better off for college. Yeah, right. So, I entered college having the worst habits ever, and expected them to work in college. And in some courses, they did. But there's a big difference between English 1301 and Calc 2, or linear algebra.

 

I had a point there somewhere but I can't remember what it was. Anyway, UTA has a great engineering program, it's what they are best known for. They also have a great Nursing school, so I've heard. Those two departments are growing like crazy. However, Calculus and a few of the intro engineering courses are designed to weed people out. UTA has a horrible retention rate, one of the worst in the country, IIRC. To try and keep their statistics for Engineering graduates up, they try and weed people out before they make it to the professional track. Even then it's still abysmal. I'm not trying to say that it gets easier, but the courses definitely lose the feeling of "they really want me to fail".

 

Take as much as you can at TCC, it's cheaper, easier, and it all transfers over to UTA.

Edited October 27, 2010 by BLOZ UP

[cygnusx1]

  OMG, I am going to have nightmares of Engineering school tonight.  I have the recurring nightmare at least once a year, where I didn't show up for any of the classes except the first one, I don't even know where the classroom is, and I need to take the final exam. I've had my degree for 20 or so years now, and it still haunts me sometimes.  What a ****** those days were. I am having flashbacks already.  I agree with the smaller school advice, and maybe slow down the course load if you can.  No rush.  The job market isn't going to open up the gates anytime soon anyhow.

 

I'm not sure if this is any consolation but I struggled with my first two years of ME school (Manhattan College) with the basics, but when the real engineering courses began, my grades took off.  I enjoyed the engineering way more than the prep stuff.  The basics just didn't hold my interest, so I spent more time playing with cars instead of studying.  

Edited October 27, 2010 by cygnusx1

[Sparky]

Many academic advisers at a Freshmen of Sophomore level don't care or don't know what the right course of action should be...they look at a big book and highlight things you have to take for your first two years. It's not until you get into your department that you get real life advising. The closest thing you can get is by scheduling an appointment with someone in the department of your choice that's not an egotistical jerk that likes to scare "kids" because that's what happened to him. Ask alumni or upper level students you trust for the right name.

 

 

Not everyone get just jump right into college and be successful and of those several end up with jobs in their chosen fields only to leave them a few years later when they realized it wasn't for them after all. If your floundering now and you have the opportunity to go the community college to take some interesting classes AND get your basics out of the way I would do that. While it's true that some HR people might look at that as being a negative the majority won't really care either way as long as you can prove your responsible enough to get a degree.

 

The key is to really do something you know you can love and will provide you with what you need for the remainder. If your good at math and love to design and fabricate have you thought about industrial design or any other design type degree?

[rturbo 930]

  OMG, I am going to have nightmares of Engineering school tonight.  I have the recurring nightmare at least once a year, where I didn't show up for any of the classes except the first one, I don't even know where the classroom is, and I need to take the final exam. I've had my degree for 20 or so years now, and it still haunts me sometimes.  What a ****** those days were. I am having flashbacks already.  I agree with the smaller school advice, and maybe slow down the course load if you can.  No rush.  The job market isn't going to open up the gates anytime soon anyhow.

 

I'm not sure if this is any consolation but I struggled with my first two years of ME school (Manhattan College) with the basics, but when the real engineering courses began, my grades took off.  I enjoyed the engineering way more than the prep stuff.  The basics just didn't hold my interest, so I spent more time playing with cars instead of studying.  

I'll agree with the smaller course load too. I am by no means the hardest working, or smartest person, and a far cry from being organized. I have pathetic time management skills, but I'm trying to do one thing at a time since I'm pretty much starting from scratch. BLOZ UP's high school story sounds familiar, but I did put a little more effort in. I can't imagine taking 18 credits a semester full of full on engineering courses. I'm taking something like 14-16 credits, the courses being College Composition II, Calc 1 (for the last time), Physics, and College Algebra, since I've forgotten a lot of it and it makes for a good GPA booster as well, which I desperately need. I could still study much harder, but I'm finding that putting in a fair amount of effort is resulting in some pretty decent grades. Not amazing, but still much better than ever before. And the real shocker? I'm kind of enjoying it.

 

Sorry for the additional posts, but I am continuously being reminded of things that have either been a problem, or been to my benefit.

Edited October 27, 2010 by rturbo 930

[Michael]

A few points. By way of background, I was an aerospace engineering undergrad in 1990-1993, then did the graduate school thing, and have since been in aerospace research. I do not teach, but occasionally give lectures, advise grad students, and collaborate with aerospace professors on various research projects.

 

1. There are “weed-out†classes, but 90% failure rate is unconscionable. 50% occasionally happens, but 90% is obscene. If this genuinely happens, complain to the department chairman, or the dean. Faculty who fail 90% of their students will have trouble from their superiors. The occasional big man on campus can rock the boat if he brings in lots of grant money, but for most professors it’s just plain idiotic to treat their students so roughly. Something just does not make sense here.

 

2. Upper-level engineering classes are conceptually more complex than the lower-level, of course, but the raw level of problem solving skills is actually less acute. What I mean by that is, you will be using more sophisticated machinery, but the stressing of your problem-solving skill is in some regards actually less. What does that mean? It means that if you struggle through the first two years, then the final two years are actually less stressful.

 

3. You said that you’ve taken calculus in high school. Did you take the AP exam? What was your score? If you scored “3†or higher, there is no reason not to be getting at least a B. Again, something is just plain wrong here.

 

4. If you genuinely like engineering, stick with it. Almost certainly things will get better. If engineering was just a passing fancy or a toss-up between several viable alternatives, switch now. If you feel that you conceptually understand the material, but your grades do not reflect your knowledge, stick with it. If however you feel that you’re not learning in class – just going through the motions – this could be a sign that your approach is wrong.

 

5. The “rate my professor†service is not to be taken seriously. It is entirely possible that high-rated professors do not deserve their rating, and vice versa. Often the most committed teachers only receive mediocre reviews. The most common complaints is that “professor XYZ is too theoreticalâ€, or “he assumes too sophisticated of a backgroundâ€. But an intense instructor is not the same as a teapot despot, an ******* or a “researcher†who finds teaching to be merely a perfunctory chore. Sometimes freshmen can’t tell the difference… and the more irate ones bother to post on ratemyprofessor, skewing the results.

 

6. In a big state school with a research bent, the freshman classes are the lowest priority of any function on campus. Expect to be treated like dirt – it’s unfair, but unavoidable.

 

7. The ideas of calculus are quite important in engineering practice, but the calculations themselves are rare, and are generally automated. You need to understand limits, derivatives, series, integration, special-functions, matrices, and the like (I’m mixing 1st and 2nd year math here), but you will almost never write out calculations on a sheet of paper. It’s all computerized.

 

8. Indeed a good plan is to take calc/chem/physics at a community college and transfer those credits. Community colleges are notorious for being “easy†(lax standards), but teaching freshman is their bread and butter, and classes are smaller. If you are having trouble on their placement exam, most likely your school didn’t prepare you sufficiently and you should consider taking a step back. This brings me to my main point:

 

9. Dis-enroll (do NOT drop out!) from UTA and spend a year at the community college. Take pre-calc, basic physics and general chemistry. Then take their calc sequence. Either that gets transferred to UTA, or you would have an advantage if you are forced to retake those classes.

 

 

By the way, in product-design engineering (industry) – whatever that means – perhaps the engineering job differs markedly from school. But in research – government and academia – engineering work is very much like engineering school, except that the problems are broader, more amorphous and harder to pin down, while the available tools are more sophisticated.

[h4nsm0l3m4n]

Having just recently graduated with an ME degree and gotten out into the "real" world I'll put my 2 cents in...

 

I think Challenger is absolutely correct. When I was going to school it was more than a full time job (I'm really enjoying working ONLY 40-50 hours a week ). I too was in class typically 8 or 9 every morning and though I didnt stay till midnight (I went home) I still was busy studying or working on other school related projects until about the same time. I did not have time to do anything else. During my senior year I only had classes 3 days a week and in addition to studying and doing homework all the rest of my spare time was spent either doing design for my senior project or in the shop fabricating parts for it.

 

As far as difficulty with classes and professors I feel thats a necessary evil. I've had many classes where the tests that have an average score of 50 or below, these are just hard tests... What I saw was that there are people that STILL get 100s on tests even when the rest of the class gets 30s and 40s. If SOME people are doing ok it certainly means you can too, theyre not super-human. I have found that in engineering classes it is extremely important to understand the concepts you are learning first. If you can understand the basic concept you should be able to find an equation that will lead to the correct answer. I found this particularly true for classes like Thermo and Heat Transfer.

 

Your Calc class story doesnt sound very surprising, though I do think that 90% seems a little high. 50% is something I've seen routinely. With 200+ students TAs have a hard enough task wading through the drivel thats typical of most people's homework assignments. If someone is given clear instructions on how to setup the problem for the TAs to grade and they cannot follow simple directions thats their own fault. If one cant follow simple instructions how can they be expected to solve complicated problems in a real situation.

 

Finally about choosing a major. The average college student changes their major several times during their academic career. It is perfectly normal to want a change and there is nothing wrong with making it. I think your family will be much happier to see you graduate with a degree that you are genuinely interested rather than struggle through a degree that gives you nothing but pain. Also (and this is me being an idealist) I would not choose a major simply because of money, or how "stable" a job seems to be. Ive worked at several engineering companies and let me assure you MANY engineering jobs were lost when the economy tanked. Many of those guys are still not back in work. I also know quite a few engineering graduates who have not been able to find work. Another thing to consider is that many technical jobs are going overseas. My point is there never is a "stable" job, everyone is always playing the game trying to stay afloat. Secondly, I feel money should not be a factor in your decision. If you are smart about what you do you can turn any degree into something you can make money with. Focus on doing what you want and what interests you. Being interested in you studies makes you that much more devoted to them and later will make you that much more passionate about the work you do.

 

One last bit of advice: Get involved with the professors. They are always thinking/working on some kind of new, cool, research. Put yourself out there as a volunteer and get involved with what they are doing. It will give you a better sense of what exactly youre working toward and really give you a good idea if you like what you are learning. Plus its an awesome way to do some really interesting things and get a good reference for when you apply somewhere else to work!

[kamikaZeS30]

I am 26 years old and just now about to get my AA degree. I have been attending college classes since I was 16, with a 6-year hiatus for military service. Why? Well, we're not all lucky enough to be born into upper-middle class families. (Well, I was but, when I was about 5-years-old my dad's heroine addiction [he was an aerospace engineer, by the way], the subsequent divorce and my mom raising me single-handedly on one income with no child support took care of that.)

 

I graduated high school at 16, 6 months later, the high school I went to shut down. I was ****ed because it was a small private school and hadn't been accredited by the state board of education, yet. So, I had to take the CHSPE (it's an actual H.S. Diploma, but colleges around here look at it as a GED, especially when you don't have any transcripts). Don't get me wrong, I had a solid primary/secondary education, just no paperwork to establish that fact.

 

So, I started at a community college fall of 2001, did very well, I made the "chancellor's list" several semesters consecutively. Eventually, in order to continue paying for college, my car, and all the expenses that come with living (I was trying not to be a burden on my mom since she let me live in her house) I was working 70+ hours a week at 3 different jobs. This eventually started impacting my grades and I knew I would never be able to afford to transfer to a four-year university, because I was considered a dependent until 24-years-of-age and my mom's income just barely disqualified me for any financial aid. So, I joined the military, did that for 6 years, all the while watching my friends graduate from college and generally attaining other life-goals while I was sent off to different corners of the world to enforce someone else's idea of right and wrong.

 

Today, I am almost 1 year out of the military, I am still at community college, but I should be transferring to SDSU in Fall of 2011 (I'll be 27) as a Junior. I decided to double-major and I'm trying to clear my prereq's for my second major before I transfer.

 

Where you go to school can have some impact on whether or not someone will hire you, but not usually. College degrees, especially in this day and age, are more like a sign of "Hey, I'm willing to buy into someone else's bullshit and stick with it for at least 4 years. So hire me." Professors vary like opinions, and as everyone knows, opinions are like ***holes. I know (from taking a lot of math courses), that engineering faculty are typically more hard-nosed about grades, grading scales and expectations of their pupils. Why? A number of different reasons, but a lot of them have professional experience in their field and get tired of working with idiots that don't know what they're doing. Ask any engineer, that's their general attitude: everyone else is an idiot. Your professor is right about "70%" being a respectable grade, however, that's assuming he sticks to what the scope of the course is and doesn't just throw in questions that aren't within the scope of the course on the exam just to see if he has any "super-students." The counter-point to that is, if you're meeting course objectives and the exams are designed to emphasize knowledge of class material (lecture, text, assignments and in-class exercises), and you're only scoring 70% is it really going to help you to go to the next level, where it's assumed that you know 100% of the previous course material?

 

Engineering is not for everyone, I decided on a more strictly math degree rather than engineering. Why? Because if you look at a lot of the big firms and their requirements for filling positions, unless it's a highly specialized/specific field of engineering, they'll just as soon take someone with a Math or general science background.

 

The question really becomes what do you want to do? I am also majoring in Japanese, that was my original goal, because that's something I enjoy, I eventually found out that I really enjoy math, as well. So, I went with that, as well. Having a specific field is nice, but getting a piece of paper is getting a piece of paper, specializing is what graduate school is for.

[josh817]

All your advise really helps guys, especially from those who have graduated and are living out your careers. The amount of hours I'm taking is 13-14. Academic probation limits you to 14. My first semester, according to the degree plan, had everyone taking 17 hours. My biggest gripe about that was say for instance this Chemistry class. Its 4 credit hours. I translate that to be hours a week. Wrong, we all know that's wrong. I spend 2:40 a week in lecture and 4:00 a week in lab.

 

"Yah its a 4 hour class, but you're in class for almost twice that.... mhm"

 

As you can see, 17 sucked. Even the kid who bailed was taking 14 hours. I still don't know if I want to persevere though. What you guys say is invigorating but when I look at how far behind I am already it kills me. I only heard 90% fail rate from someone, Nick do you know anything about that?

 

 

It may be private but if you guys don't mind me asking. What positions did you start at for your first job and how was the pay. I agree I shouldn't be concerned about pay but I also don't want to negotiate for something less than what I can make while still enjoying it. My job only requires me to work a few select weekends per month. Its not really a job, I'm a corner worker at track events, so I don't have to compete with hours.

 

I know I have a little more juice in me to push on and places where I can improve but I don't know if its enough to make a difference. Say I get through all this and get into the department. From the sounds of things, it never lets up its now just more personal. I personally feel that if I'm going to have a headache every day by enduring this and then getting out into the "real world" and its once again the same thing but like you said bigger problems that are harder to pin down and better equipment... I'd rather just cut a portion of my check and go into something I'm good at and enjoy. I get enjoyment from being good at something. I enjoy doing stuff on the Z because I understand how to do it before I dig in, so when I get to it, its like clock work. I know there will be things to overcome in life but I don't want everyday of my career to be a hurdle that I don't know how to cross, constantly making me worried.

 

I would seriously like to see careers of an aerospace engineer. I want to go in there and see what they do and the things they have to do. My ignorance of the real working world makes it so bliss for me. You see shows of people working in cubicles doing the same thing over and over again with no promotion and then you see shows where its all in depth hands on type of job. For example I haven't a clue what your job entails, Michael. When you say aerospace research do you mean your boss says hey I want to know this by the end of the week, and you create a presentation? Honestly, I'M CLUELESS.

 

Again the question becomes, how many times do I retake this. I can't make the placement grade I need as of right now because like I said I haven't had precal in a very long time. The Physics was basic physics or physics 1. I'd like to blame the teacher who spoke Engrish but it was my first semester and I screwed around that semester too much anyway.

 

I will continue to take at least 12 hours. I think you already know this Nick but its 12 because that counts as full time to get financial aid. I get a good amount of help considering the family situation. I recently learned from someone in class that you can take 8 hours of community college and 4 hours of UTA, and those will add up to 12. I thought you had to have 12 at one university. This is a good thing so I don't have to risk leaving UTA for community college and then trying to re-apply for UTA and they tell me no.

 

Once again let me reiterate. I chose aerospace simply because I was like hey I like working on mechanical stuff, it pays well, and I could possibly apply it to cars. Indeed I like doing those things and problem solving, fabricating, etc. but I may just like it as a hobby... but it just sounds so cool with all the machines and stuff! I saw a think for an "internship" which was basically working with a professor in the lab. Pays $12/hr and 10 hours a week. I wrote down the email and I am needing to reply. I need to figure out how next semester is going to work before I tell him I can work. As you can see, all sorts of doors are open for me to take which is why I created this. I need a little bit of guidance, considering its going to affect my life.

 

First thing is first, talk with advisers and counselors, get a list of other degrees and what sort of job opportunities come with it. I think another area for concern is that it seems almost as if an engineering job sets you up well for the time being but if you ever lose your job its going to be a pain to get back up for whatever reason, your education may be outdated or whatever. When my dad was laid off he didn't have anywhere to go because his education was from the 80's in an electronic field... Then again I see that happening for any degree... except for journalism? It gets off subject and I'm clearly ignorant of whats going on out there, but it seems like a secure job isn't something that happens anymore. Our generation is beep-bopping around.

 

 

Edit: Kamikaze I really like what you said. I hope its how you explained. I told my mom the same thing I typed. I jumped into aerospace because I thought airplanes were cool, that doesn't mean I want to build them really.. I just think they're cool. Who thinks jets are cool? I figured even with any other degree. If I like airplanes so much, get something that has me working in the office of Lockheed rather than the assembly line or research facilities. If I go with something other than engineering, I'll probably go back for my masters just to make me more useful. I'm not going to lie, I feel the family pressure. Sister is doing sociology, which I make fun of her for but she makes straight A's and is going all the way to the top with her Doctrines. Her husband, Kyle, is like a manufacturing engineer doing his graduate school online. Mom has her masters. Dad I'm not sure about. He may have an associates or bachelors and it would be in EE. He emphasizes my education though because he is a perfectionist. He finds no reason to make anything but A's, considering he went to school while my sister was a little baby. Plus since he did the whole military thing for a while too, he feels that I have a great opportunity here, going to a full blown state university and he wants to see me do well. So I'm being compared to family here, but when I ask them about it they say no I'm not because engineering is way different than sociology, a good excuse not to make straight A's.

 

I don't think it helps my efforts that I've propped myself up on this "engineers high horse". I can't say liberal arts without giving a little bit of a dirty stink eye squint. I'm not even in engineering just yet and its busting my chops. Considering anything else always seemed like a downgrade to me of course until now when I bow out.

Edited October 27, 2010 by josh817

[Challenger]

Check with your financial aid office before you take classes elsewhere. In some cases taking classes elsewhere and accepting another colleges financial aid can void what you have at UTA. Make sure everything is in order, dont want suprises.

[kamikaZeS30]

I think if you take a step back and analyze your personal strengths, and make a short list of your personal goals, then use those as a sort of filter (kind of like a Boolean search algorithm) you'll find something you want to do.

 

I picked a language and a science because 1) I would like to continue traveling abroad, possibly even living abroad after college and 2) in addition to being able to speak, read and write in another language I will need some kind of hard-skill to market. Broad spectrum degrees like Math, Business, English, Sociology will always be applicable to something.

 

When you ask for examples of work, it's kind of difficult, because yes there are a lot of engineering jobs that are cubicle, stuffy office, shirt and tie salary man jobs. I had a friend that graduated from Columbia with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, he ended up doing basically accounting for a division of engineers at Boeing, not playing around with aircraft like he wanted to. He hated his job and ultimately quit working, ran up his credit card debt and then his rich parents deployed the financial safety net and dragged him back home to the East coast. I have another friend that has an A.S. in Information Systems with an emphasis in network security, he works for a subcontractor with SAIC doing HF engineering (RDF, Radar, etc.). My mom has her B.S. in Agricultural Animal Science (I don't know if that's even offered anywhere anymore), she ended up doing mainframe software development and support for Pacific Bell for over 30 years (well, she was only in data processing for about 28 of the 35 years she worked for the company, but whatever). What I'm saying is that your degree will not necessarily dictate your profession. Even in today's highly competitive workforce that isn't true, and I don't think it ever truly will be.