Make a 240z safer.

[AlexPie]

I had an (ex girlfriend now) swerve to miss a poor little bunny

and just about put the both of us into a ditch

 

so what tony said about the biggest safety device in a vehicle is the driver

speaks volumes to me

[Tony D]

"Most of us take off the heavier 260/280 bumpers. How much difference do those really make in a higher speed accident?"

 

70+ mph into the back of a free-rolling Dodge Neon going ZERO mph? A LOT OF DIFFERENCE!

 

It was the difference between wrapping the entire engine into the firewall due to no absorption and spreading of the impact (look at the 240 I posted earlier) and being able to simply jerk the front end back straight and continue racing for another 7 hours.

 

I don't know about you, but hitting a stationary car full-rearend at 70mph is pretty high speed in my book. And the bumper was not damaged! It sprung back out. And in fact was the anchor point for my F250 to jerk the front end back relatively straight. The radiator was the crush-zone that absorbed the final bits of energy.

 

Into a solid reinforced concrete wall at 70mph? Maybe a moot point there. But in practical application: taking those off is colossally stupid from a safety standpoint!

[cygnusx1]

...The biggest safety device in the vehicle is the driver. Period. Drive like everybody is out to get you and chances are you will go quite a while before someone succeeds in getting you!

 

 

The trouble is, I am starting to believe that everyone IS out to get me...maybe that's a good thing.   

[Pharaohabq]

"Most of us take off the heavier 260/280 bumpers. How much difference do those really make in a higher speed accident?"

 

70+ mph into the back of a free-rolling Dodge Neon going ZERO mph? A LOT OF DIFFERENCE!

 

It was the difference between wrapping the entire engine into the firewall due to no absorption and spreading of the impact (look at the 240 I posted earlier) and being able to simply jerk the front end back straight and continue racing for another 7 hours.

 

I don't know about you, but hitting a stationary car full-rearend at 70mph is pretty high speed in my book. And the bumper was not damaged! It sprung back out. And in fact was the anchor point for my F250 to jerk the front end back relatively straight. The radiator was the crush-zone that absorbed the final bits of energy.

 

Into a solid reinforced concrete wall at 70mph? Maybe a moot point there. But in practical application: taking those off is colossally stupid from a safety standpoint!

 

I certainly see your Point. So we'll add that to the list:

 

6: Don't remove Factory bumpers.

 

How about the idea of reenforcing the earlier flimsy 240Z bumpers with a strip of solid steel? hidden behind the 240Z bumper. Yeah we wouldn't have the shock absorbers, unless we drilled and mounted a set far enough back for nicer spacing with the bumpers. A solid steel backer might allow for more impact transference to the frame. front and back would likely add 100Lbs.

[Tony D]

Understand the reason for 5mph bumpers was to keep the lights and signals intact when in a parking-lot collision. The resultant liability introduced for automakers by this government nanny-state edict resulted in grossly overdesigned bumpers for a while. Look at the bumpers on a 77 Impala, and a 77 280Z. Not much difference. Standardization of design by engineers (ugh!)

 

Most grey-market companies federalizing the non-USA models simply welded pipe into the stock skinny bumper and showed 'engineering calculations' that it reinforced it enough to protect the lights. It did not, however conform to the mandate that the bumper return to it's stock location within 30 (seconds?) minutes. Hence the shock-absorbers...

 

There really is no way to take a car pre-73 and make it act like a 280Z. The 73 did have 2 1/2mph bumpers, and the early 74's had narrow bumpers that met the interim 2 1/2 standard with the return to stock position mandate (add distance, mount on shocks.)

 

What you are MISSING here is that the body is a DISPOSABLE STRUCTURE. You DO NOT WANT something that will remain intact. The fact of the matter is when you hit something you will break the car, and likely it will be rendered useless.

 

ALL bumper standards revolve around reducing the incidents of loosing signal and main illumination in parking-lot low speed fender benders. In higher speed crashes (defined as above 5mph, even though currently there is no 5mph bumper standard, they have returned to 2.5 mph standard so the conformal bumpers with good aerodynamics and ligher weight can remain on the car to help the producers of product jump through the other governmental nanny state dictate of CAFE...) the body is the deforming crash structure.

 

The goal here is OCCUPANT SURVIVABILITY, the survivability of the early 240Z in a 40+mph frontal offset crash is shown in my previous photos. It looks decent enough. Had some internal things been changed there would have been less injury, but given the severity of the imapact what the driver sustained was very minor.

 

The biggest thing about surviving that crash was THE DRIVER PUT HIS SEAT BELT ON BEFORE LEAVING HIS PARKING STALL!

 

Had he not done that, chances are real good he would have ended up on the hood of the vehicle that hit him, or in the middle of the intersection after being flung out of his seat and thrown out of the vehicle while it spun in mid-air.

 

I have seen this firsthand on the 60 freeway where a passenger made like superman as he exited a blazer's windshield (his fists punched through it seemed) and was flung out into traffic lanes while the truck did a pirrouette on it's front bumper before rolling several times (in his direction, I was ready to look away should it land on him, but ultimately it did not). The driver (who chose to wear her belt) was still in the seat a little bumped up and bleeding. He was in the fast lane with a rager indicating a severe spinal injury (I watched him bend over and his nose and upper maxillary was broken when he kissed his own knees on impact).

 

Again, the biggest safety factor is the driver. Wear your seat belt and AVOID accidents. That is cheaper, and IMO probably the MOST EFFECTIVE WAY to make a 240Z safer!

 

Seat belts being in a car doesn't make it safer. WEARING THEM DOES.

Passive restraints in a car doesn't make it safer if the driver then ASSUMES he's invincible because he has airbags, and drives like an idiot.

 

Statistics are starting to prove this out. It was first suggested to me in the readings from the old Hippy John Muir and his idiot book for the VW. As I age, the more of his sage advice comes back to haunt me in my own thoughts.

 

People are stupid, and people die. Perhaps we shouldn't be protecting people from themselves through governmental mandates and oversight. Ultimately this seems counterintuitive to the best interests of the human race...

[bjhines]

heheh.. I thought of a few more things.

 

A marker flag on a 4' tall flexi pole would aid in finding the little cars in parking lots(full of 7 foot tall suburban assault vehicles).

 

A 3rd brakelight mounted on the roof(as high as possible so it is visible through the windsheilds 2 SUVs back).

 

Train horns http://trainhorns.net/

 

DRL foglights and driving lights.

 

Replace the fatory seatbelts. Only 5 years lifetime for sanctioned racing, Why would anyone rely on the antique Datsun seatbelts.

 

Door reinforcement. Already mentioned, later years are better.

 

Full chassis reinforcements without a cage. Check out the head-safe cage with roof reinforcements http://www.modified.com/features/0611sccp_opera_performance_nissan_350z/index.html or the S2000 http://www.modified.com/features/0611sscp_opera_performance_honda_s2000/index.html

 

Floor/footwell reinforcements, This is something I have seen discussed before... John C. ???

Edited December 10, 2010 by bjhines

[johnc]

Train horns are for pussies.

 

[Pharaohabq]

Tony: I agree, People are the #1 safety feature of a car. But people also need to be protected from themselves. I agree Seatbelts are a Primary line of protection in an accident. You'd be stupid not to wear them. As for the car, I'm not saying I want to reuse the car after an accident, I want it to do it's job and protect us from injury. I'm trying in this thread to explore methods of updating the S30's Safety features to better protect us in the event of a wreak. I'm not trying to protect the car. If it keeps me or my passengers from being hurt, the car is 100% disposable. Yes I would like for it to be repairable, but not at the expense of injury.

 

 

...

The goal here is OCCUPANT SURVIVABILITY, the survivability of the early 240Z in a 40+mph frontal offset crash is shown in my previous photos. It looks decent enough. Had some internal things been changed there would have been less injury, but given the severity of the imapact what the driver sustained was very minor.

...

 

I'm trying to make a list of some of the "...some internal things been changed..." to help improve occupant survivability.

 

 

So, Again I'm agreeing with you that people need to use the provided safety equipment. You've given a lot of advice and introspection on the nature of accidents. Your posts on door padding and occupant responsibilty have been great. What other areas do you know, that are weak from a safety viewpoint in the S30 chassis?

 

 

BJhines: Great suggestions. The 3rd tailight idea I've been thinking a lot about, I'm sure there's a thread on here somewhere about adding one. Also, your point about the Age of the seatbelts is definitely valid. our S30's are 35+ years old. I certainly wouldn't climb using a 35 year old rope that's been dried and sunbaked, so replacing the seatbelts or at the very minimum inspecting them for wear is certainly warranted.

 

Driving lights, and DRL are a great idea too. I dunno if a bicycle flag is worth being able to find my car in a parking lot, a Remote trigger and a train horn sounds easier

 

I really liked those articles about the Safer Rollbar setup, and ESPECIALLY the parts in there about the OEM sheetmetal bolstering. Welding additional layers of OEM sheetmetal in strategic points to strengthen known weakpoints might be a really good idea. This may help limit chassis intrusion in areas where a roll cage may not be sufficient or dangerous. Along with the Impaxx foam padding (shaved and covered for a nice interior) to limit occupant accelleration, sound like good ideas.

 

That Doran Cunningham horn is amazing, but a bit of an overkill for an S30. One that loud would likely be a safety hazard in itself, quite dangerous in traffic anyway, not to mention your ears.

 

Phar

[Tony D]

The point being that from the ultimate goal of driver survivability, the answer would be 'nothing'...

 

The softening of what you will hit, and decreasing acceleration distances is it.

 

Everything else is external and affecting external forces that might hit the car---they all come under 'defensive additions' DRL's, Ships Fog Horns, strobes in the brake lights, head lights that act as flamethrowers, LPG Blowtorches that incinerate would-be carjackers...

 

All these things prevent the WRECK or aim to AVOID the wreck (and it's 'wreck')

 

Point being on additional sheetmetal 'known weakpoints' --- it's all opinion. I don't know but one KNAF Licensed Roll Cage Structural Engineer on this forum, and he has not contributed. If you are going to obsess about every possible impact, you car going to miss the point of vehicle design. You must design for the most LIKELY impacts. Offset frontal, Frontal, Side Impact each is a compromise.

 

in short, yo uaren't going to do anything spectacular to change anything on a car that is already eminently survivable. All you will do is 'cushion the blow' somewhat more.

 

Really, that should be the limit of your focus. Start dicking around with structural things without knowing damn well what you are doing and chances are better that you will make something deadly out of something which formerly was simply injurious.

[bjhines]

To meet todays standards you would need higher bumpers, and frame connections that would not allow them to fold under. The entire way a new car crumples is built into every piece of sheetmetal. We can't easily model the chassis and wreck it... can we????

 

You don't want the engine in your lap

You don't want the fuel tank splashing you or the entire undeside of the car

"" legs pinned

legs smashed into column and pedal box

ejection

roof in your head

doors pinned against you

 

I just don't think you can shoehorn modern chassis safety engineering into a 240Z. Making the car stronger also makes it more likely to injure the driver and save the chassis.

[Tony D]

Last Statement BJ says is CORRECT!

 

A 73 240Z already incorporated many improvements that were 'refined'. The long and short of it to the OP's question is "buy the latest model you can get" it incorporates the most comprehensive FACTORY ENGINEERED SAFETY SYSTEM.

 

Anything done aftermarket by an individual is VERY limited, and is within the realm of what I mentioned above.

 

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's a post 67 FMVSS Engineered Chassis, it is lightyears ahead of ANYTHING designed before that standard existed. It addressed most of the glaring 'fashionable' deathtrap features prevalent in most vehicles of the time.

 

Frankly, Safety Circa 1967 is good enough for me. I'll spend my time AVIODING the wreck, and making my car capable of AVOIDING a wreck. If I do wreck (as shown by the photos posted earlier in this thread) I know the vehicle will do what it is supposed to do to protect me.

 

I daily drive a 1974 260Z to work, my backup is a 1976 FAIRLADY Z 2/2---less safe than the 74 US model (I've removed the hack-job federalization stuff!) but still just as safe as a 1970 240Z. That's good enough for me.

[Pharaohabq]

Right, okay, so without scanning the whole car into some fancy computers to model some actual wrecks there's not really that much that we could or, in your opinions, should do to change the actual structure of the S30 chassis. This makes sense to me, though I would love to see simulations at work. So limiting our modifications to what we've listed is really the best idea at this point.

 

Just to recap the list:

 

Learn to drive - drive like people are trying to kill you (easy advice, but not really a car mod)

Door bolsters - To limit body accelleration in a crash. Impaxx foam

Rollcage - Does this really help in a daily driver?

Seats - Newer seat design can hold a passenger to help prevent body accelleration

ABS - Haven't seen anyone put in in an S30 yet. Are ABS calipers much different than standard calipers?

Don't remove Factory bumpers

Better lighting - DRL, 3rd brake light.

USE SEATBELTS (replace/inspect) - Using the provided protection is your #1 resposibilty in keeping yourself from getting hurt.

 

Anything else to add?

 

 

 

Oh and thanks for wrecking you car, as compared to wreaking havoc.

Phar

[surfer.tech]

I wouldn't do the roll cage. Try banging your head on it, now imagine that in a impact.

[ezzzzzzz]

I put my 240Z into a 20' container, strapped it down and padlocked the doors. It's pretty safe now but sucks to drive in that short space.

[asuly]

well if you pad up the roll cage real well wouldnt you think that it would offer an even softer impact than the interior panels? I would assume at least a rollbar is a must because either way you cant realy hit your head on it as long as it is behind the seats, probly better to pad it up anyway though.

[hoov100]

well if you pad up the roll cage real well wouldnt you think that it would offer an even softer impact than the interior panels? I would assume at least a rollbar is a must because either way you cant realy hit your head on it as long as it is behind the seats, probly better to pad it up anyway though.

 

No, roll cage padding is to reduce the impact while wearing a helmet and you would be amazed at just how far you actually move in a wreck, even while tied completely down in a seat,

 

My motto is "the safest car is the one on jack stands in the garage"

[asuly]

Ok then a padded rollbar is fine right? I was also thinking of welding in a couple of bars to the rollbar to protect from side impact.

[hoov100]

Ok then a padded rollbar is fine right? I was also thinking of welding in a couple of bars to the rollbar to protect from side impact.

 

If it's behind you when the seat it fully reclined.

[getoffmyinternet]

"Passive restraints in a car doesn't make it safer if the driver then ASSUMES he's invincible because he has airbags, and drives like an idiot."

 

That's exactly what's happening. People take safe cars for granted and drive like they're playing gran turismo. I see way to many people buy huge cars under the assumption that they are inherently safer and drive like assholes. In fact I wish I had a tally of all the times I've been cut off or passed by someone whose weaving with the pedal to the floor and put an actual statistic on just how many of those are large trucks and SUVs. The higher the lift on a vehicle also seems to correlate with how terrible the driver.

 

 

I've heard of very few insurance predator stories, but nevertheless I thought we were talking about actual accidents here. If you find yourself in a deathproof plot then I suppose you've got bigger problems. I'm also not sure how illegal aliens are tied in, could they really cash in on you? If I smashed into an illegal alien that presumably didn't have insurance to boot, I'd assume to be pretty much off the hook, but I don't know how that works for sure.

 

But yeah, I totally lied about living in Socal, busted...

[Nelsonian]

^^^ "People take safe cars for granted and drive like they're playing gran turismo. I see way to many people buy huge cars under the assumption that they are inherently safer and drive like assholes. In fact I wish I had a tally of all the times I've been cut off or passed by someone whose weaving with the pedal to the floor and put an actual statistic on just how many of those are large trucks and SUVs. The higher the lift on a vehicle also seems to correlate with how terrible the driver."

 

My thoughts and experiences virtually on every days commute to and from work.