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Brakes! Who is running what?


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#21 ckrell

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:06 PM

wilwood 4 piston (1.75" diameter) front rotor adp. I made rears are 1.71" offset wilwood rotors are 11.25" diameter 1.25" wide all in side 14" wheel

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#22 Silver Mine Motors

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:13 PM

another factor you should consider is if you want to have an e-brake. our rear stage 4 kit has an e-brake and AZC does not if i'm correct.

Big Brake Kits for 240z, 260z and 280z go to

 

Silver Mine Motorshttp://www.silverminemotors.com/

 


#23 S30 SPL

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:46 PM

The Silvermine rear brake kit is pretty nice, I have it myself.

The one thing that nobody mentioned (I don't think) is to make sure whatever you decide on, there are plenty of pads available. This is one of the main reasons why I decided to use the MM front Cobra kit plus the Silvermine Mustang kit in the rear, SOOO MANY choices. And the front can easily be upgraded to the Cobra R Brembos if you needed that extra 2 pistons and bling. I figure 13" front and back should stop the car plenty fine. Throw in a larger master and adjustable proportioning valve, it should work ok. Not too expensive, but is easy with upgrade potential.

#24 SleeperZ

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:17 PM

I've got 280ZX calipers with R4 pads and turned down '84 Z31 rotors on the front, stock drums and OEM shoes still in the back, driving on Hankook Ventus R-S3 tires. Had a blast last year on the track (30 minute sessions) without any braking issues. I am not driving to the limit though, and my setup is very front biased.

This summer I am going to install rear 280ZX discs with '86 Maxima calipers and R4 pads, as well as the 15/16 master and 280ZX proportioning valve to see if I can equalize things.

Although I am happy with the brake upgrade options, I've run with faster people using well-maintained bone stock brakes. It is amazing what good fluid and pad/shoe materials can do on the track. I think there is more bling and less real performance with "upgrades". I don't mind admitting I really hate drum brakes though.

1978 280Z -->  L28ET, MS3, T3/T4 (V1/V2), 440cc injectors, Spearco IC, BW T5

 

Otherwise all stock.


#25 Leon

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:40 AM

Although I am happy with the brake upgrade options, I've run with faster people using well-maintained bone stock brakes. It is amazing what good fluid and pad/shoe materials can do on the track. I think there is more bling and less real performance with "upgrades".

Amen! :2thumbs:

People love doing "upgrades" for the sake of upgrading. Tires matter magnitudes more than your calipers. A properly-maintained stock system with agressive friction material and high-temp brake fluid works great, even on the track. Ask the ITS guys.

Put your money into your tires and it will change your car. Nice call on the R-S3, I plan to get the same for my Z in the near future.

#26 JMortensen

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:05 AM

The problem is that the stickier the tires, the more heat you can put into the brakes. For tracking a Z with sticky tires I think you need some pretty serious ventilation to allow the stock calipers and rotors to keep up. I've been on the track with slicks and half-assed ventilation and boiled Super Blue brake fluid in less than 5 laps with 4 piston front on solid rotors and 280ZX rear disk. When this happens the pedal goes straight to the floor, no warning, pumping doesn't do much, you're pretty well screwed. Getting a vented rotor in the front seems to be the key to running on the track without a lot of ventilation (vent tubes tend to get torn up on the street so not the most desirable fix). Toyota calipers on stock rotors is better than stock in terms of increasing heat capacity, but not by much, and can really screw up the bias and lead to less effective braking even if it works for another lap or two before it fails. Pads help a lot, but you still need to be able to dissipate the heat, and if you can't get the heat out of the system you're still going to have trouble, although you might put it off for a couple more laps because your pads didn't give up before the fluid boiled.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#27 Leon

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

The problem is that the stickier the tires, the more heat you can put into the brakes. For tracking a Z with sticky tires I think you need some pretty serious ventilation to allow the stock calipers and rotors to keep up. I've been on the track with slicks and half-assed ventilation and boiled Super Blue brake fluid in less than 5 laps with 4 piston front on solid rotors and 280ZX rear disk. When this happens the pedal goes straight to the floor, no warning, pumping doesn't do much, you're pretty well screwed. Getting a vented rotor in the front seems to be the key to running on the track without a lot of ventilation (vent tubes tend to get torn up on the street so not the most desirable fix). Toyota calipers on stock rotors is better than stock in terms of increasing heat capacity, but not by much, and can really screw up the bias and lead to less effective braking even if it works for another lap or two before it fails. Pads help a lot, but you still need to be able to dissipate the heat, and if you can't get the heat out of the system you're still going to have trouble, although you might put it off for a couple more laps because your pads didn't give up before the fluid boiled.

Jon, I understand that. However, the ITS racers must use stock brakes and don't lose the pedal during a race. I'm sure they utilize brake ducting but it appears as though stock brakes are good enough when properly maintained and set up.

In fact, after reviewing the thread, you made essentially the same comment in post #17. You have also divulged that your brake ducting was inadequate.

I think we can conclude that the stock brakes, with aggressive friction material, high-temp brake fluid and good ducting will work just fine, even on extended track sessions.

Edited by Leon, 16 May 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#28 JMortensen

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:15 PM

I agree, but think you're underestimating the hassle of proper ducts. Do some searching on that and you'll see that you probably won't be able to turn the wheel all the way to lock and you'll lose some ground clearance. If you put ITS ducting on a street car I think it would be ripped off in a couple hundred miles.

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#29 SleeperZ

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:37 PM

Fortunately we don't need ducting on the street. Vented rotors are very nice, and definitely help with keeping the brakes cool during extended sessions. For other uses like the street, strip or even autocross, there is not time to develop much heat, so heavier components and/or better pad materials are just about all that is required as upgrade.

1978 280Z -->  L28ET, MS3, T3/T4 (V1/V2), 440cc injectors, Spearco IC, BW T5

 

Otherwise all stock.


#30 Leon

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

Take the ducting off when you're driving on the street.

#31 ablesnead

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:04 PM

I have many years racing ITS datsun 240s....our brakes suck , if you need to use them , ( particular tracks ) , then you are at a distinct disadvantage..ducting carbo tech rear lining , latest porter field ....they still suck , I have finished 1 hour enduros with the calipher piston all the way thru the pad metal...no brakes , but we expect that, still won !

#32 JMortensen

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:50 AM

calipher piston all the way thru the pad metal...no brakes , but we expect that, still won !

That must have looked a lot like my pic from the previous page!

Jon Mortensen, owner/operator www.petdoorstore.com


#33 SleeperZ

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:46 AM

@ablesnead -- I absolutely agree that vented rotors are very nice to have on a road course, and more pad area distributes the heat better. But in terms of single braking events or low speed/short duration like autocross and street driving, stock brakes can do the job as well as any of the "upgrades".

And I wonder whether brake rotor cooling is impaired when such large rotors are fit so tightly inside the wheels. I use 15" wheels, and the Silvermine rear disks may fit some and not others - I question whether they would perform any better than the 280ZX solid rotor in a 15" wheel...

1978 280Z -->  L28ET, MS3, T3/T4 (V1/V2), 440cc injectors, Spearco IC, BW T5

 

Otherwise all stock.


#34 S30 SPL

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:51 PM

Wheel design is also very important for thermal management, wheels that have solid faces for example (extreme) are not very good at moving air around the hot parts.

#35 johnc

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 07:49 AM

However, the ITS racers must use stock brakes and don't lose the pedal during a race.


Yes they do. Depends a lot on the track and how aggressive the driver is. Ran a 6 hour enduro and we had to do a front pad change halfway through. Try changing brake pads quickly when they come in smoking.

The Silvermine kit is probably the best bang for your buck ready-made kit available. It also has good balance as shipped. The 280ZX and Maxima rear calipers tend to not have enough rear bias when used with the Toyopta S12W caliper up front.
----- John Coffey, Fabricator at Benton Performance, LLC

#36 Leon

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 09:54 AM

Yes they do. Depends a lot on the track and how aggressive the driver is. Ran a 6 hour enduro and we had to do a front pad change halfway through. Try changing brake pads quickly when they come in smoking.

The Silvermine kit is probably the best bang for your buck ready-made kit available. It also has good balance as shipped. The 280ZX and Maxima rear calipers tend to not have enough rear bias when used with the Toyopta S12W caliper up front.

Ok, I'll concede that stock brakes may be inadequate for 3 hours of endurance racing. :P

#37 galderdi

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

I am running hydraulic handbrakes in both my track cars.

I had a close call yesterday when I had a complete hydraulic brake failure. It occured at the fastest part of a Motorkhana test (similar to your Autocross) coming in to the finish. I went for the foot brake, it went to the floor, I went for the hydraulic handbrake, it offered no resistance. By this time I was well past the finish line and was looking for gaps between the parked cars waiting for their turn. I managed to apply the standard cable handbrake which started to slow me as I threaded the needle between a parked car and a trailer. The gap was actually narrower than my car which meant I had to clip the trailer but it was only the ramps so no damage was done.

So it turns out there was nothing wrong with my installation of the system. It was perfectly suitable for the purpose and had been operating well up to the incident. The problem was that I must have placed pressure down on the handle at some stage during my run. All that was holding it back was the standard circlip which popped out allowing the brake to explode and lose all its fluid.

So finally here is my point. If you run a Hydraulic handbrake make sure it rests on a stopper when not in use. That way if you do happen to lean on it the stopper will take the weight not the circlip.
I have now installed a stopper under my handle and I feel more comfortable with the setup. Personally I think these Hydraulic handbrakes should have a stopper built in as standard.

#38 Zinpieces

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

Attached File  Photo783.jpg   49.2KB   75 downloadsI am using stock Q-45 rear brakes mated to a T3 rear suspension setup. For the fronts I am using 12.2 in Wilwood rotors and lightweight 4 piston calipers on T3 five lug front hubs. Technotoytuning has developed a five lug hub for 240Z spindles that really is sweet!

#39 _X_

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

..edited post

Edited by _X_, 05 November 2012 - 02:28 PM.


#40 Racin_Jason

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

A belated thank you for this thread!

 

I am about to get around to 'refreshing' the brakes on my V8Z (425ish @ crank) and I was about to purchase upgrade kits for the F&B that wouldve set me back over $1200. This is a street car and nothing more (well..drags).

 

This opened my eyes to the idea of putting good pads on my stock front brakes and doing a basic pieced-together rear disk setup - apparently it'll do the job! This will save LOTS of money and ease installation.

 

How is the balance on a system like I just described? Can I even use the stock proportioning block?? Oh..do I need to upgrade the MS for added capacity in the rear calipers?

 

Thanks!

Jason


Edited by Racin_Jason, 27 February 2013 - 01:06 PM.

One of these years...




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