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johnc

HybridZ Is Not Automotive 101

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Chaparral2f    2

This thread seems to have degenerated into an arguement over teaching technics which isn't where it started at all.  There are a lot of people who post stupid questions, (Where do I buy a timing light?)  and there is no doubt these are stupid. But this begs the question of just where does stupid end.  I've building cars for more than 50 years most of what I know was gained hands on. There was no one to ask, I learned by dragging a pile of tools out and taking things apartit was a process called common sense. I guess that today no one does that sort of thing, and I think that's what John was talking about.  Lucky for a lot of us he sets his "thats to dumb to answer" window pretty low, and graciously answers most questions. I just think it would be nice if before posting people could figure out which end of the hammer to hold on to.

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thedarkie    2

Old-timers circle-jerk thread! I like it.

 

I asked a stupid question (clunk from the rear suspension) when I first joined, but I also asked for some clarification on certain parts if I remember correctly. Anyways, first time Z owner, and I bought a highly (though thats relative) modified example to boot. Not even knowing what kind of parts you have on your car is a tough place to start, not to mention it renders most of the factory manual useless. Regardless, off my thread went to the dump.. though John decided to grace me with his mighty wisdom by pointing a finger in the direction of the gland nut. I tried to search for more info but decided to just take the rear suspension apart and find the problem myself. The gland nut was indeed merely 'hand tight'... haven't driven yet to see if it fixed the issue... but I digress.

 

 

There's no doubt that a wealth of info resides at this forum... unfortunately some (most?) of it is buried within threads, and sometimes ones which started in a completely different direction. Using google to find answers on this site is definitely the way to go; but some shit just has to be asked multiple times. You wanted to be master overlord of a forum, deal with it. 

 

I don't think I'll ask any more questions for fear of being labeled a nuisance... hopefully it won't cost me money and unnecessary parts. We'll see!

Edited by thedarkie

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johnc    724

Regardless, off my thread went to the dump.. though John decided to grace me with his mighty wisdom by pointing a finger in the direction of the gland nut. I tried to search for more info but decided to just take the rear suspension apart and find the problem myself. The gland nut was indeed merely 'hand tight'.

 

And you didn't even say thanks... :-(

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tfreer85    20

I haven't posted in Hybridz in a long time.  Things change personally and publicly.  This forum has changed, its gone through revisions, layout changes, and the like.  I don't frequent here much anymore because my obsession for knowledge has slowed with the slowing of my z-car.

 

I have a couple of suggestions, since most of these problems have been around since the beginning:

 

Create a wiki for Hybridz.  It can serve as our "FSM" (not to hard to setup, can be a great place to send people who are new) Quality content doesn't get drowned out in the noise.

 

Put time restraints for new members and limit them to certain Topics.  (1-week only can post to Non-tech, from there only xyz, etc.) Yeah it may put some people off from coming back, but it will keep a lot of rift raft out.

 

Improve search functionality.  Back before the site overall the search function was decent.  But it needs touching up.

 

Include a "Welcome Pack" on sign up.  This could automatically direct them to a wiki, FAQ page, etc.

 

Heavily promote the Terms of Service of Hybridz.  We are on your playground, make sure people know what is expected. Slip in a "What color was the cow?" type question to allow them to progress into the forums.

 

Just my .02

Keep on trucking...er...z-ing...

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I hate it when the family fights....... :icon50:

 

Haha

 

But yeah, I agree with John and the "older crowd"

 

My generation is definitely generally lazy, and I am NOT proud to be associated with them. Luckily, I was born in the late eighties, JUST before the internet, so I was raised to be self sufficient. An ideal, that I feel no longer exists for the vast majority of the populous. It forces you to be creative (that and living in a Lighthouse for the first 14 years of my life, far from the reaches of kids my age)

 

But when the technology came along (IE: the interwebs), my creativity only grew. As did my quest for knowledge, which was NOW readily available at my finger tips!

 

I have very little patience for people just asking for answers, considering GOOGLE is only a few clicks away.

 

There should be NO question unanswered, if you are willing to contribute the time.

 

And if you aren't willing to put in the time, you probably shouldn't be doing this type of work.


 

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Tony D    143

It wasn't a technique of teaching digression as much as an example of people who dealt MUCH MORE STERNLY than a "snarky" comment or banishment to the tool shed. People whine about how they're treated online....but NOTHING here compares to getting something thrown at you! Nothing!!! Grow a sac, for gawd's sake...

 

What it digressed into was exactly how does one identify the people too lazy to THINK... Which really is, at it's core, the ROOT issue here.

 

There have been PLENTY of "answered a thousand times" questions posted by raw noobs where I personally have answered in detail. Not because of charity, but because the guy asked it cogently, showed his work thus far, and most importantly drew a conclusion that he was seeking confirmation/assistance in determining if his logic was correct! No thought and a brainless repetitive question...you deserves what you get.

 

When THEY put effort into it (not a BS "I searched and searched, honestly don't flame me!" Claim) then I'm thinking most here WILL assist.

 

Even at ZCar.com.

 

But the corollary point is those individuals are seriously few and far between!

Edited by Tony D

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Wedge    12

Putting a google search bar that does the *XYZ* site:hybridz.org would help find stuff faster imo. I am not from the old crowd but I found over the time that this site has been linked quite alot on other forums for people wanting RB specific info and it brings the wrong crowd wanting to get the info spoon fed to them. We are victims of our great knowledge base. I think it is ok to be more "agressive" against lazy new comers.

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PLATA    18

I am a "new comer", but not to the brand or the Z, I see your valid point. In my case I am an aficionado , yes I can do some light wrenching, but can not diagnose/or have the mechanical know how. I  get my info from your archives, it's full and vast with tons of info.We suffer for the instant temporary mentor on a present crisis.  We are victims of instant info thanks to Google.  FWIW

Edited by PLATA

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Tony D    143

And now that it has been brought to my attention how to do it, I suggest the following to those noobs who don't appreciate humour, or the WAY someone answers their question.... In stead of whining in the post:

 

1) While Logged in...

2) By your username on the top right, click the drop down...

3) Click the 'manage ignore prefs'...

4) Add the screen name of the offender to your ignore list...

 

PROBLEM SOLVED FOREVERMORE!

 

Just be wary that I think this may affect searching for previously posted solutions, and you wouldn't want o compromise your moral indignation by accepting advice from such an insensitive and coarse individual!

 

 

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Six_Shooter    13

Mike

Tony

Administrators

Founders

 

If, after 15 years, you are still disappointed  with the types of people who join the site, change the rules to what you think is neccessary to select people who are a good fit for your vision of the site. Just honestly state on the website marqee and in the rules what the criteria is for membership: professional/experienced car builders, automotive techs, mechanics, engineers etc.  Discourage all others not to apply for membership.

 

I've been suggesting this for years.

 

I probably spend about 20x time searching Hybridz threadz than posting.  There should be a rating for Posts and Searches!

 

In truth, hasn't every single issue on a Z  been discussed 18 times over. Everything!

How much is really truly new?   Yet.. I read 10 threadz on the same damn thing and in between the lines, among the coal and fossils  I'll find a little diamond... that one little diamond. I'll cross refernce to what the FIAT guys are doing with Webers, or the Porsche guys with blowers and I might even see what the Suby guys are doing with R180s (but not likely).

 

In the aviation world we struggle on type-specific forums and groups to keep the quality up, yet run through enough new candidates to promote the best.

A forum called "Beechtalk" does a superb job of this.  VERY tight to the Terms of Use and zero tolerence to the decorum rules.

(Airplanes are aluminum so we have to be more gentle with each other.)

 

My problem is I have a WP, a veritible  "Mama's boy" and I want everyone to get along and have a good time like I am.  So I pick on CertainD members because I perceive them to be "mean", When they probably, most likely, by all means, (maybe) they aren't.  

 

But if we don't allow or or if we discourage posting of Old-Business there is a risk of squashing good information and new ideas and tricks and new angles on old problems which is the heart of Hybridz.

 

Tj

 

 

The problem is that even though the majority of membership own cars that are 40+ years old, there is still new technology and ideas being thought of, tried and developed everyday.

 

My car is a prime example, while I have read many threads here and found many ideas, I have not come across anybody who has done some of the things I have done to my car (1973 240Z), so has everything really been discussed over and over again? Nope, not in the slightest. I can see many other's car in the same way, or their ideas.

 

On the flip side, there seems to be a pretty common "recipe" used to modify the S30, and that's fine, those are the topics that can be search for.

 

I think part of the problem is people read a title and expect to find the same old question, and without really reading the post, can sometimes go straight to the "Search yo foo" response. 

 

I find it ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS how the admins and moderators of this site try to make it sound so difficult to keep the site up and running. I'm an admin on other sites along with being a moderator on others. These are for the most part pretty technical sites or subjects as well. It's not difficult at all. To put it another way, it's only difficult if you make it that way.

 

Sure some people will ask a question without searching, it's always going to happen, more FAQs, a Wiki, or reduced posting privileges will NOT keep that from happening. If they aren't searching for the answer to start with, what makes you think they will read an FAQ, or similar post before asking a question?

 

I will reiterate the point of the board's built in search function being quite lacking, though I have been able to find some information through its use. The Google search, while better is not much, when you get results that have the same posts in them, and I'm not talking about the same subject matter, I'm talking about the posts that say "Search you foo!!" That's what I'm doing! :facepalm:

 

Lately I've been finding more information off site, than here. I'm not sure if that's due to more information being found by Google now, or if it's due to how more recent posts are being handled. Maybe it's just due to lack of new posts because people are afraid to ask a question for fear of being ridiculed  no matter how thought out the question is. I've seen some pretty technical and thought out questions "shedded" which has me confused. I remember when new posts were every few minutes, now it's every few hours, and even then it's usually lacking any technical knowledge, seeming for fear of being ridiculed, if they are wrong, even on one small tidbit of the info.

 

I come here mostly to see what some of the new members are trying, occasionally what some of the older member's new builds are, and encourage experimentation of people's ideas, where some older members may poo-poo the idea, simply because that's not how they would do it, it may not be how I would do it either. Knowledge can be gained by trying new things, not discouraging them. If I had listened to half the people that have told me not to try the things I have, I wouldn't have 90% of the knowledge I do, or half the cool projects I have built.

 

So while this site may not be "Automotive 101" there has to be some give and take to help people get to the level that this site was created around.

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Tennesseejed    10

Interesting thread.

 

Any person who comes to HybridZ to read and post a little learns quickly that they bear at least some burden to ask a nominally intelligent question.  While I don't recall having done it myself, its not uncommon for the general membership to give both barrels to a first time poster with some innocuous, ordinary or mudane query.  This site does have an attitude and seems, by and large, to be self-policing.  I like that. 

 

To the extent management perceives a problem with the site being overrun by dimwitted peasants, I guess I don't see that.  Or at least I don't see the low information poster substantially cluttering what is an otherwise invaluable, free public resource on Z cars.

 

The chassis specific forums, where most of the wheel offset and 'slamming' questions originate, seem to allow for more generalized discussions than the tech specific sections.  There is a troubleshooting specific subforum for the 'help, my car doesn't start" questions, and the tool shed for posts for total garbage posts.  I think the site works very well.

 

Despite not being a spring chicken myself (45), and freely admitting to the desire of developing into a Class A cranky old man before I push up daisies, a few thoughts in defense of the new poster with simple questions:

 

1.  We were all beginners at some point in our life.  At least some of the new posters, even the ones with dumb questions now, will eventually overcome and meaningfully share in the common hobby that binds us together.  While I have no desire to rub internet elbows with a bunch of 'ricers' on a regular basis, does a legitimate desire to protect the Hybrid Z temple of knowledge justify kicking sand in the face of every 17 year old who just purchased a rusted out 240Z and wants to know how to wire his starter?  

 

2.  Sometimes you just gotta ask a simple questions.  The wealth of information here on HybridZ is deep; it is also sometimes conflicting or so theortical and esoteric so as to not provide a straighforward answer to your question(s).  Electronic questions, such as 'how do I make my tach work with MSD' or 'where does the white wire on the HEI module go,' will not always reveal simple answers after an hour or two of searching.  There may be no "best" here on HybridZ, and engine building may be as much art as science, but many questions related to Z cars do have right and wrong answers.  Not every person can rebuild a 5-speed transmission while blindfolded.  I don't think someone asking  "why does my transmission pop out of reverse" should be out of bounds. 

 

3.  It's o.k. to mingle with the humans a little.  I completely respect that HybridZ is a knowledge base first and a social site second.  But what's the fun of poring over dozens of pages of search results only to find your own answer and then quietly go into the night.  Sure, there are garages, and build threads and project threads aplenty, but the 'search first, ask questions second' approach, when taken to the extememe, has a chilling effect on conversation.  To be clear, though, I am fully onboard with requiring a poster to bring a modicum of reasoned thought to the table when posting.  I suppose that I am just trying to say that if the goal of turning a wrench on a Z car is to create a vehicle that provides the driver with a joyous and exhilerating driving experience - as mine does thanks to this site - its only natural to want to spend a little casual time sharing your happiness with others and getting a pat on the back, or vice versa.  That this sort of commentary doesn't relate to optimum piston to valve clearance in consideration of the quench characteristics of the P90 head, or derive the airspeed velocity of an unladen european swallow, doesn't mean its a bad thing.

 

Just my .02.  Thanks to the keepers of this great site.

 

Sincerely,

 

TennesseeJed

Chairman of the Dumb Questions Department

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Tony D    143

"1.  We were all beginners at some point in our life.  At least some of the new posters, even the ones with dumb questions now, will eventually overcome and meaningfully share in the common hobby that binds us together.  While I have no desire to rub internet elbows with a bunch of 'ricers' on a regular basis, does a legitimate desire to protect the Hybrid Z temple of knowledge justify kicking sand in the face of every 17 year old who just purchased a rusted out 240Z and wants to know how to wire his starter?  "

 

If one were to say "Yes" would that make them a bad person?

Seriously, what's wrong with keeping your mouth shut and LISTENING?

 

Because one exists, does not mean one MUST make one's presence known. 

Because you get here for free doesn't mean all questions are welcome. Everyone is welcome to learn "but please don't hold up the rest of the class"...

Today's educational system is mired in feel-good "everybody has a voice and that voice is special" --- as a result the PROCESS OF LEARNING has STOPPED. It's not about LEARNING now, it's about making everybody feel special and valued, without any hurt feelings. Pish Posh---you want that go back to elementary school!

 

Is it kicking sand, or is it teaching proper social interactive skills and respect in an advanced FOR ADULTS learning environment?

 

It seems for those defending or advocating the right of people to ask basic questions on a forum dedicated to ADVANCED knowledge and the furthering thereof that it's "kicking sand"...

To those here wishing to further ADVANCED knowledge, and not rehash the basics ad-nauseaum... the advice to keep it quiet or go elsewhere in find it is just reminding people to have respect for their time.

 

The old saw "We were all beginners once" may be true. But if we are to accept that, then conversely the thought that the majority here when beginners knew when to keep their mouths shut, OBSERVE, and when making a query respected the people they were asking enough to at least ask a GOOD question.

 

Asking a bad question wastes everybody's time.

As a beginner, the person's time to waste is YOUR OWN---spend it looking for the answer. If you can't find it here, go elsewhere and search some more.

 

Yes, we were all beginners once. And we knew how to respect everyone's time. That's what's lost.

 

As I said above: "The IGNORE" function is mightily powerful. I, for one, am going to use it. I am using it. The board looks better today because of it!

 

Please don't ask a bad question then get MAD when people IGNORE you! Forever. 

 

THINK about what you're going to post.

 

THAT IS ALL THAT WE ARE ASKING!

 

How hard is that?

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BlackdogNY    0

Please don't ask a bad question then get MAD when people IGNORE you! Forever.

THINK about what you're going to post.

THAT IS ALL THAT WE ARE ASKING!

How hard is that?

 

The problem is,  if I am not smart enough for find the answer on my own what makes you think that I will know if I am asking a stupid question??

Ignore/delete I said that about 50 posts ago.  Why get your draws in a bunch about someones inexperience.  Spend your time helping people you feel are worthy.

 

Is prof. Rudy in, should I duck for cover now....

 

B&G

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kiwi303    29

"kicking sand in the face of a 17 yr old wantign to wire his starter"? hell yes, High volume leafblower blasting him and dump a bucket of sand in the airstream!

 

 

For that case, there is Zcar and Classiczcar... it is AFTER those site run out of utility that HBZ comes into the picture.

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Tony D    143

Indeed!

Like others replied 50 posts ago: that sn't what this site is for (kiwi303 nails it!)

 

Go where it's appropriate and use the forum as not ended.

 

Eventually the nipper at you pocket going "mistermistermistermistermistermister!" While you're trying to carry on a conversation with another adult needs a whack.

 

If they never get the whack, they never learn.

 

As the merchant seaman's manual states " if one may only be moved by a kick, then a kick is rightly applied and is within the spirit of the law!"

 

It's called "school of hard knocks" for a reason. It's not called "Barney give you a hug and a kiss for refusing to read the rules and disrespect the forum school"!

 

As I said: how hard is it to think. If they are too stupid (as YOUR classification states), then I posit SWIFT KICK or Harsh Flame is necessary to get "the stupid" to learn.

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BlackdogNY    0

I think what I was trying to point out is it is impossible to keep this site for 'experienced z owners'.  If you wanted that you should have kept it between the few worthy 'overseer's'.  Complaining that you have to deal/answer/smack a 'little nipper' is silly.  It is like spraying for mosquitoes, you may get a lot, never get them all.  It only takes a few to be a pain in the ass(if  you let them bother you).  I choose to ignore and move on.  Not much of the 'grumpy oldtimer' type. Is it impossible to 'teach' a student without corporal punishment?

Tony, do you ever make it way over here to the N'east for any events? 

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Six_Shooter    13

I think what I was trying to point out is it is impossible to keep this site for 'experienced z owners'.  If you wanted that you should have kept it between the few worthy 'overseer's'.  Complaining that you have to deal/answer/smack a 'little nipper' is silly.  It is like spraying for mosquitoes, you may get a lot, never get them all.  It only takes a few to be a pain in the ass(if  you let them bother you).  I choose to ignore and move on.  Not much of the 'grumpy oldtimer' type. Is it impossible to 'teach' a student without corporal punishment?

 

 

Well said.

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RTz    264

What I always hope comes out of threads like these is... All of our members come from all walks of life. Different educations. Different financial backgrounds. Different needs. Different wants. Different goals. Different priorities, Different preferences. Different perceptions. Different ideals. And on and on and on. What should be taken from this is that no forum can accommodate all of you. We can’t and we won’t even try. Some will be happy, and some won’t. It’s life. Bitching about it because it doesn't meld with your perception of idealism is birdbrained.

 

This staff tries to balance our own ideals with the membership the best we can. The result pleases a large percentage of our members, and leaves others cold. If the latter is you, deal with it. If it doesn't measure up to your standards, simply leave. You’re not a prisoner.

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