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Max_S

Moved: Unsure which engine to use, asking for input/opinions

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Not anything really plastic there? The stock intake pipe is plastic as is for almost all cars. Manifold or collector plenum is big cast aluminum unit I believe, which has short comings in distribution so it usually gets replaced.

 

I've seen people mention this a few times. It really doesn't need mentioning. Who wants a peaky 300hp build? Like who takes an 2jzgte, 1jzgte, rb25det, or even an L28et which all have pretty flat-ish power bands and curves and almost make 300hp, and finds a turbo that doesn't spool until super late and then chokes the crap out of it up top so it limits itself to only 300hp? That is running a massive hotside and then basically an equivalent massive wastegate to open the moment it starts to spool. It really does not merit mentioning. That was a thing when turbo manufacturers didn't make anything for gas cars, now they do. Borg warner, precision, garrett, they all have a performance gas engine division now, so no more borrowing diesel turbos and dealing with their characteristics.

 

I am pedantic so a correction. Unique means singular. If it has been done and done more than once, then by definition no longer unique. I mean if you want a unique car, find the excrement of two singularly unique animals and smear it all over your car, it will be by definition unique, with an minute chance of replication. I went to a junkyard last week, and the guy there said he put together a 4 rotor 280z like a decade ago. 2x12A motors with a custom e-shaft. I thought there was only 1 4-rotor S30, even that is not the case.

 

A caged car really shouldn't be on the road anymore. A minor accident can go from a fender bender to a skull fracture. Sheet metal is a lot more forgiving than DOM tube in a collision. Roll bar with anti-intrusion bars may be sufficient for protection. You can get a cage and have it fit really tight to the body and run impact absorption material, but that would be pretty expensive and still it would take quite a bit of visibility away. I can't really speak on this with authority so I'll let others chime in. 

 

Make a list. We'll throw out options and test it:

 

Priority:

"Uniqueness" (super vague, maybe something like not-domestic or german, might be more apt a description)

"Aesthetics" (in regards to an engine is kind of tough, you have to narrow this down more, you mention not having hoses/wires everywhere, well turbo cars are going to generally have more hoses than NA cars etc)

300hp

no 4 cylinder

"Useable" power band

No transmission tunnel modification

 

Regarding your build, how much do you have budgeted for this? 

 

If this in any way feels harsh, here is where I come from. I had a roll bar which I removed it for a couple more inches of leg room. I had a fuel cell which I am replacing with a OEM tank from a camaro because I get fuel starvation on corners. I built my fuel system twice as I went from simple carb only to fuel injected turbo. Plan things out, if your plan can with stand scrutiny then it will be easier to justify going down the road. If someone told me 8 years ago that I would have over $30k in my $500 car, I probably would have reconsidered or done things differently. 

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If I'm honest, I think you should go with the VQ. A VQ35DE out of a 350z would be just fine and fit most of your priorities well. There's also the VQ25DET but they can be a bit hard to find.

 

With how far back you can get the VQ to sit (especially with a forward facing intake) clearing the steering isn't an issue. There's also prefabbed cradles on the market ready to weld in. It's a well established swap at this point, so little custom fabrication if that's your jam.

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@seattlejester First off, to you and all others who have replied here, thanks for the patience with the newbie 🙇‍♂️
The intake on the picture you posted is metal, and looks just fine.
However, when I googled VQ engines/swaps, I mostly found pictures like this.

And that was a bit too much plastic for my taste.
I've seen a few of the metal ones you posted, and two swaps running intake-manifolds from the GT-R, but when I went down that path I pretty soon found an adaptor-kit for that manifold for over 1000 Dollars.
So that didn't seem sensible, spending 1000 Dollars to swap one piece of plastic for a slightly prettier one.

Unique...yeah, bad choice of words.
"Rare" would have been better.
It would just be nice to have something that gets more of a yawned "seen it before" out of other people.
Doesn't have to be literally unique, but also not 1000000x done-to-death (like BBS on a Golf).

As for the cage, I assume you think I mean something like this:
CageKitRally-33000RK.jpg

I don't.
That's far too extreme for a roadcar (and probably a pain to climb through).
I was thinking of a half-cage behind the seats (like those Porsche sticks in their GT3/GT2 road cars), and maybe a bar to the front for some side-protection.
I had a halo-bar in mind for the added safety, but actually backed off that plan since I'm not really planning to run a butt-naked interior (and don't know if I want to cut the dash to bits).
So it's probably going to be closer to this than to this.

The List:

"Uniqueness"/Rarity=It's not going to be a showcar as the main purpose, but if it sticks out a bit/draws attention, that would be great.

So I don't want something that's been done a million times and turned usual business/boring.
As for aesthetics:
A clean engine bay, in my eyes, would be something in this direction:
Clean.jpg


A "messy" one something like this:
Snake_pit.jpg

As I said before, it doesn't have to be completely "tucked", but decently organised.
That fuel-injection means a bit more electrics than carbs is clear, that a turbo means more piping too, I was just looking for good examples here.

The horsepower, as said before, would be nice, but I could be just fine with falling just short of it.
260 is the "must have", 300 would be the perfection.
The power-band, seems like I'm just not "up to date" on turbochargers there.
I know a turbo always has a bit of lag, I'm basically looking for a "compromise" so I got some midrange power, not just when I'm starting to scrape on the limiter.
Trans-tunnel modification/replacement...well, I'd like to keep the stock console, and it of course cuts down on fabrication if I don't have to engineer and construct a new floorpan.
Some widening/raising shouldn't be a big problem though.

Budget at the start (about a year from now) will be around 8-10 thousand Euros (9-11 thousand US-Dollars), if that money is spent I'll go "bit by bit".
As I said before, I got tons of patience, but not endless funds.
I haven't calculated out every Euro yet, but lets say I want to keep it "grounded", I'm not planning a 50k or 80k or even more money build.
Just like you can resto-mod a Mustang and stick 30.000 into it or 130.000.
At some point you got to decide where to put your money.
That's what I meant earlier with looking for a reasonable package, and it's why, for example, I kicked the RB26DETT early on since it would've been much more expensive for me than a 2JZ, which is relatively similar.
My MX5-restoration started out at 3000 Euros, by now it's at 8 grand.
Wasn't expected, but I spent money where it was worth spending, and if I had to wait for a month or two in between, I did that.


 

10 hours ago, Gollum said:

If I'm honest, I think you should go with the VQ. A VQ35DE out of a 350z would be just fine and fit most of your priorities well


It looks more and more like that (I'm still running two plans parallel, so this is talking piston-engines).
They're available, spares can be had at any German Nissan-dealership (even if it says "Infinity" on the engine, as far as I know), they're quite compact, and the heavy bit (the transmission) is relatively centered in the car (while the shifter doesn't seem to move too much).
And they put out enough power.
A problem I've run into is where to find engines in general, the (tiny) German market seems a bit expensive to me.
Or is it perfeclty fine, for example, for a VQ35DE (221kw version) to run at 5.500 Dollars (and more) used (from a company) with around 60.000 miles on the clock?
(Just the engine, no accessories).
Looking at engines I've found ones with shipping to Germany for as little as 200 Dollars, so if they're cheaper there that would be an option.
Or is there a good source in Japan (other than Nissan/Mazda/etc itself)?


Max

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You seem to have several conflicting design approaches in mind. 

 

Asking for opinions will net you as many opinions as there are HybridZ members.

 

Suggest you research HybridZ and Google for German Z car builds (many).  This will help you scope the project according to German market, regulations, part availability and etc. 

 

 

In the end your project will be defined by:

 

  • Local regulations
  • Budget
  • Skill level
  • Project plan  (suggest a "Build spread sheet"  listing all costs and part numbers broken down by system such as engine, drive train, suspension,  brakes etc)

 

 

 

Edited by Miles

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Roll bar/cage etc


That's far too extreme for a roadcar (and probably a pain to climb through).
I was thinking of a half-cage behind the seats (like those Porsche sticks in their GT3/GT2 road cars), and maybe a bar to the front for some side-protection.
I had a halo-bar in mind for the added safety, but actually backed off that plan since I'm not really planning to run a butt-naked interior (and don't know if I want to cut the dash to bits).
So it's probably going to be closer to
this than to this.

 

Just something to hit your head on in a street car.  Or you can wear a helmet on the street.

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Both of the first two pics you posted are the same all aluminum intake as what the 350z had. They just also have the plastic vanity cover that makes an engine not look like a "mess" to non-car folk.

 

If you keep an L engine then EFI doesn't mean the engine bay can't be clean. To the contrary I'd say it's easier to maintain a clean look with EFI, but you certainly need to ditch a lot of the OEM design to it. I have ZERO focus on aesthetics with my car and it looks world's cleaner than that 280zx engine bay you posted.

 

 

20180816_224042.jpg

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Seems like you have same sort of plans with Z that i have. Fast and reliable weekend/holiday car. 

I went to SR20DET mainly because of weight and weight distribution.

If i would think now, i would also consider VQ30DET(T). With two small and easy spooling turbos it might be great engine. 

Of course it has to be JDM rwd engine and needs some custom fabrication. Intake is as silly as VQ35, but these engines are quite cheap.

Edited by TUME

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4 hours ago, TUME said:

Seems like you have same sort of plans with Z that i have. Fast and reliable weekend/holiday car. 

I went to SR20DET mainly because of weight and weight distribution.

If i would think now, i would also consider VQ30DET(T). With two small and easy spooling turbos it might be great engine. 

Of course it has to be JDM rwd engine and needs some custom fabrication. Intake is as silly as VQ35, but these engines are quite cheap.

VQ seems to be a decent option, Rotary is still my favorite (I have to finish calculating that one, though).
V6 with two "snails" on there sounds pretty perfect, but also pretty illegal ☹️
I have to see what the TÜV says to my plans.
There are the "power steps" in approval of 20 and 40 percent, above that and I have to see which requirements my TÜV comes up with.
SR20 still sounds nice, but I'm pretty sure I'll go with a six-banger (I already got a fun four-cylinder from Japan), so don't make me reconsider for the ten-thousandth time^^.
Or maybe I'll have two Zs one day.... 🤔
As I mentioned above, a big question mark is still a source for engines, the German market for Japanese engines is tiny and expensive, and searching craigslist state-by-state is pretty time-consuming.

Max

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The metal manifolds came stock on the earlier years. They make other options too, but it seems like the engines with the dual intakes seem like the later years that have a plastic intake like most newer cars have like the ford ST's the LS engine, WRX cars, etc. They still feature the vanity cover which is removable. If that removable vanity cover keeps you from wanting a viable engine option then it is pretty much at the top of your list there on priorities. Nothing wrong with that, it is just an exclusion requirement for you that we have to factor in.

 

So priority for you:

No vanity cover, even removable ones

No plastic intake manifolds

 

hrdp_1102_24_o-project_erod_1979_chevrol

No LS engines

1998-nissan-skyline-gtt-rb25det-neo.jpg

No RB's

2jz-fse-crown.jpg

No 2jz's

 

Kind of reduces your options a bit.

 

Breaking the "mold" is fine, you just have to be aware that the more you break the mold, the better your skills will have to be as there will be less people who have gone down that route. Your reasons for breaking the mold though have to be really on point at least for you, just because you want some stranger to say "oh I have not seen that before" is not really going to outweigh being broken down on the side of the road because you need a custom serpentine belt that takes 3 days to ship. If it does outweigh it for you then more power to you, that "wow factor" is higher on your list of priorities than serviceability. Keep in mind with the internet, there aren't that many surprises left for those who know how to use google. 

 

Not having a halo bar would make this more of a roll bar than a roll cage. You will find terminology is pretty important here. I did remove my door bar after about a month as slipping in the car became an exercise in foot placement and weight management. 

 

Think things through. You are as miles pointed out on a swap haven, almost every type of swap has been conceived or witnessed on here and elsewhere, V10, V12, flat 4, rear mount V6, rotary (2, 3, and now even 4 apparently), 4-cylinder (even a 4g63, among SR20, FA22C etc), even electric. The reasons people have done it or started it range from because they had access or they were bored to pointing out the benefits in engineering, serviceability, familiarity, or whatever. Narrow it down, to a couple candidates that have good pros that outweigh any cons and ask specifics. One thing that might help in reality check terms is asking how much people have spent getting the swap into their cars, because in the JZ side of things the average cost is a suggested 7-10k just in getting the engine in and running with minor supporting systems like coolant and fuel, not including chassis, rear end, suspension, brakes.

 

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I think you should look at british market for JDM engine. 

I can feel your pain, we have here in finland maybe even more tight regulations with cars. I can go +20% with power, +25% displacement and so on. Not funny at all. That is main reason i went to SR. It just fit with regulations, but i can always tune it. Lets say double the horses for a start...😁

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