grumpyvette

that dyno chart seems to indicate your volumetric effiency falls off pretty fast after about 4500rpm,what goes in needs to go out, it could be a restricted exhaust, a the lt1 heads are better than most stock sbc heads but hardly race quality and the stock cams fairly mild, what converter stall speed and rear gear are you running? have you done a cpr test?

theres nothing WRONG with the cams themselfs,in fact they are milder than ideal for maximizing the hp, its the CONVERTER stall speed limiting what can be effectively used without having an engine thats a P.I.T.A. to drive in a street car engine with the gearing, because the converter won,t allow smooth operation at ideal and slightly higher rpms, you can easilly install and have a nice responsive engine combo or even a larger cam,with a MANUAL transmission or HIGHER STALL CONVERTER. heres two SIMILAR CAMS http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=114132&lvl=2&prt=5 despite what the card info says this runs pretty smoothly with a stock converter and low compression 350 with a 2.87:1-3.07:1 rear gear ratio EVEN thought its designed and works BETTER with a 2500rpm stall converter and 3.73:1 rear gear or higher http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=114142&lvl=2&prt=5 this one produces noticably better upper rpm power but if used with a stock converter its a P.I.T.A. to opperate in traffic and jerks the car when you place it in gear and basically runs like crap untill you hit about 2300rpm, then pulls hard from about 2700rpm up to about 5500rpm match either cam to a 3.73:1-4.11:1 rear gear and a manual transmission in that low cpr 350 and you have a nice torque band from about 3000-5500rpm which for a street cars not basd with that rear gearing. bump the cpr up to about 10.5:1 and head flow rates up enought to support a bigger cam, in the rpm ranges it needs to effectively opperate in ,keep the same 3.73:1-4.11:1 rear gear and a manual transmission , you can use a good deal more durration and something like this works great, but youll need those mods and about a 3200rpm stall converter to run an auto trans http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=114681&lvl=2&prt=5 keep in mind as the durration increases the piston is much higher in the cylinder at the point both valves close so at low rpms your tradeing many more power strokes per minute but loosing effective cylinder volume being compressed and you never reclaim it all even at high rpms, your tradeing lower effeciency for more power strokes and higher rpms, which tends to kill off the low rpm tq. compare the piston location in the cylinderr to the valve close points http://www.iskycams.com/ART/techinfo/ncrank1.pdf

"I wouldn't run a cam with more than 215 degrees duration at 0.050" with a stock converter or less than 9.25:1 cr or less than a 3.50 gear. Over camming is a lot worst than under " IM forced to aggree with that basic statement, cams with more than about 215 durration at .050 lift reguardlees of LCA are very unlikely to work correctly with low cpr,s and a stock converter stall speed,s especially with a gear lower than 3.73:1

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54543 bits of info that might prove worth reading thru in differant areas of this thread

if you snoozed you lost out, its spoken for

Ive never checked about that on a Lincoln Electric Weld Pak 3200HD but, Im pretty safe in saying ...probably NOT!

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100093231 Ive got one of these Lincoln Electric Weld Pak 3200HD Wire Feed Welders I took in trade Ill let go for $250 that sell new at home depot for $460 with a few minor extras like full wire spools if anyone close by cares to run by and pick it up,.....I don,t really need 7 welders and letting someone get a deal won,t hurt me a bit, in fact Ive got a 230 amp stick/arc welder thats missing the leads that Ill throw in for free

you see this type of testing alot in the comparison of cams or intake manifolds, they stick a cam designed to operate at 5000-7000rpm with 12.5:1 compression ratio in an engine with a single plane intake, then test it in a 9:1 cpr test engine with a ,dual plane intake and smaller carb and show you how its a total dog compared to thier promoted cam thats slightly milder in durration and then brag about (look how we even gave the other guys the extra advantage)even thou we only tested from 2500-up to 6000 rpm, look how much more low rpm tq we produced.......and the un-thinking morrons rush out to buy without thinking it thru

what you guys are missing is its very easy for the guys hawking these plugs to squew the results , simply changing the PREFERED gap, heat range or FUEL AIR RATIO, IGNITION timing that favors one plugs ideal charicteristics that can result in that much gain, example, lets say that plug (A) runs best with a .045 gap at 37 degrees advance and a 14.7:1 f/a ratioand plug ( runs best at .040 gap and with 39 degrees total advance,and a 14.0:1 f/a ratio, we can make either plug look bad simply by testing BOTH with identical specs that favor the plug we choose too have win the comparison. use you minds! if the cylinders ignited properly , at the correct time with the correct voltage and amps and gap, the flame tends to be started equally fast ,the plug type matters very little if its not, the PLUG TYPE MATTERS VERY LITTLE, its getting all the factors optomized for the conditionsd that results in gains

1989 vette http://www.stingray.nu/tips/tech89.htm Cubic Inch 350 - ID/VIN 8 Net HP @ RPM 240 @ 4300 Net Torque @ RPM 335 @ 3200 Comp. Ratio 9.0:1 Bore & Stroke 4.000x3.480 Fuel System TPI - Tuned Port Injection Valve Lifters Hydraulic Exhaust NIY Oil Capacity 4 QT Oil Pressure @ RPM 50-65 @ 2000

what transmission, converter stall speed and rear gear ratio are you matching that engine too? is it a stock 700r4 like your thread suggests? have you done a compression test? at 12:1 its going to run into detonation you may be at a huge disadvantage using those cams as they are choking off a good deal of your potential hp if matched to some combos ID strongly suggest you read thru these builds and see what the potential real world results will be before dumping money into your build-up so youll see where the money and time is effectively spent, comp cams software is a bit mis-leading as to potential results as the stock heads are far more restrictive than the software assumes, especially if your running the un-touched stock cast iron heads, the aluminum heads have some potential but need work, its a similar set of parts (IE an L98 type sbc 350) even thou its alot lower cpr and a flat tappet cam, Id bet your true cpr is not that high and youll need a cam with more durration if its even close to that http://www.chevyasylum.com/chp/

"You guys are as demented as I am" IM PROBABLY FAR FURTHER DOWN THE PATH TO THE LOONEY BIN IN MY CASE, SIMPLY BECAUSE I LOST COUNT OF THE ENGINES IVE BUILT ABOUT 10 YEARS BACK AT A TOTAL OF OVER 150 SOMETHING.........THAT MAY SOUND LIKE A BUNCH BUT OVER 38-39 YEARS IVE BEEN BUILDING THEM SEMI PRO, AS A SIDE BUSINESS ITS NOT THAT MANY A YEAR, SOMETHING LIKE 6-9 A YEAR

if your concerned about cylinder wall flex in any sbc Id strongly suggest an aftermarket BLOCK which has FAR thicker cylinder walls, webs and decks and bolt anchor points and a much stronger main cap support than any stock block has for any sbc factory production block, in any displacement and larger coolant passages, but unless your boring the cylinders over .030 over bore I don,t think its a valid concern, and you can always short fill the block jacket up to the lower freeze plugs to add about an inch or two more cylinder wall support. with very little if any effect on cooling BTW theres TWO comon types of block filler one MOROSO sells is basically CONCRETE theres also an EPOXY/METALIC SLURRY product available (can,t remember the name at the moment but its much better and anti freeze has zero effect on it once it hardens) http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=1 http://www.whitecapdirect.com/products/220885

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82060&highlight=5140 might add a bit of info

build the 406 SBC we talked about, youll have the required 500 ft lbs over a wider rpm band and youll have it available both lower/earlier in the rpm band and over a wider rpm band and be able to use a lower octane fuel to obtain the necessary tq. look tq is a basic result of effective use of cylinder pressure and efficient use of total displacement, compression and leverage due to stroke do have an effect but in this case your worried about durability and the differance is almost non-existant, look at air flow as a guide, at 4900rpm a 377 in theory moves 534 cubic feet of air thru the engine per minute , a 406 at 4550 rpm moves the same voluum so should make similar tq, BTW thats at identical fps in piston speeds , so stress is nearly identical, BUT the volumetric efficiency favors the lower rpm 406 simply because the valves are held open longer and the drop in cylinder pressure in the cylinders that allows the intake ports to flow builds sooner and faster in the intake stroke, plus the valve train stress levels are lower

if I didn,t already own a miller 252 mig Id jump on that deal if it was offered

now if your like most guys if youve never done it your thinking it a huge complicated deal, ITS NOT,just follow the instructions in the links, Id advise you read them all because some are more clear on some parts of the process than others and youll get a better over/all feel for the process. all you need is a degree wheel, a dial indicator , a solid lifter and a pocket calculator and its something you can do in about 15 minutes time. NOW youll be asking WHY BOTHER? well its RARE for the index marks on the timing gears and the cam index pin to place the cam lobe rotation EXACTLY where it was intended to be and a shift of only a few degrees can and does move the power curve a hundred or more rpm up or down in the rpm range. now thats not huge but in a few cases youll find the cams significantly differant than the specs indicate and you could easily be down 5-20hp or have it idle like crap, if its indexed wrong, Id be very surprised if some guys cars ran worth a crap or at all if you just slapped in useing the cam gear index marks. and in one case I found the cam gear in a imported timing sets chain drive to be off almost 9 degrees, if you had installed that IM sure the car would run like crap, that cam gear was manufactured in INDIA and it was purchased at discount auto about 10 years ago, so there ARE crap parts out there in the market place. BTW alot of cam drive gear sets come with 3 crank slots and 3 marks on the cam timing gears that need to match to index the cam and if you screw it up durring the install is possiable to totally screw up the relationship between the cam and crank, degreeing in the cam points that mistake out vividly youll need a few basic tools and a good understanding of what your doing, but its certainly not all that difficult. I was asked where to get a CHEAP degree wheel heres one you can print out and save for engine builds on the engine stand (put curser on an click) http://savetheledges.org/test/AVS/images/tech/CrankDegreeWheel.png http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR%2D62191&N=700+303547+115&autoview=sku BTW you CAN advance or retard the roller timing chain its done bye drilling out the cam index pin hole in the timing gear and installing an off set bushing http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CCA%2D4760&autoview=sku you could buy these from summit racing or similar parts from jegs this is 180 degrees out (the distrib rotor points at cylinder #6, so before you drop in the distrib rotate the crank 360 degrees bring both marks to the 12 o-clock location, then drop in the distrib pointing to cylinder #1, and adjust ignition timing from that point http://www.summitracing.com/ http://www.jegs.com sells this KIT Comp Cams #249-4796 http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp%20Cams/249/4796/10002/-1 and you can buy these MOR-62191 $44 (wheel) MOR-61755 $47 (SBC) MOR-61756 $47.(BBC)crank sockets SUM-900188 $17 (piston stop, head off) SUM-900189 $6.95(piston stop, head on) TFS-90000 $94.95 (degree kit) youll also want two flat tappet solid lifters and two weak check springs http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO%2D66838&N=700+115&autoview=sku instructions http://www.iskycams.com/camshaft.html http://www.thedirtforum.com/degree.htm http://www.ridgenet.net/~biesiade/camdegree.htm http://www.hotrodder.com/kwkride/degree.html http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/803.pdf http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/camshaft.html http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/Files/145.pdf

"I bought a 120 - much cheaper if you do a lot of welding..." DITTO all my tanks are the commercial sizes

60 PSI is MORE than enought pressure,(anywhere from idle to 6000 plus rpm)in fact even at 7000 plus rpm, 60 psi is plenty in as properly set up oil system , pressures of over 75 psi just cause the pump to work harder with little or no benefit to the bearings but you probably have an valve train alignment or lash/preload problem, the lifters don,t line up with the oil feed passages untill they are near the base circle in rotation on the cam lobes so youll need to have a buddy to spin the engine over at LEAST two full rotations with a wrench on the damper bolt durring the priming process to insure oil flow to each lifter and pushrod, and if the lash/preload is too tight the lifter may not get a full charge of oil, check the pushrod guide plates also as its not totally unheard of for them to be binding the pushrods and deflecting them slightly at some point in the cam rotation, & valve lift cycle and causeing them to slightly unseat from the lifter cup, dropping oil pressure in the pushrod to zip, its better to have a bit MORE slack than have the lash or preload a bit to tight and clearances & proper alighnment of the valve train must be maintained for oil to flow correctly

BTW beariing shells rarely fit the block EXACTLY ,its comon, for the bearing shells to need TWEAKING/FITTING to the application, a differant brand of bearing MIGHT fit/line up better but its not a big deal or unknown, use a dremel tool to teardrop, and SMOOTH/RADIAS the block port to a depth of about 3/16" -1/4" so as too match the bearing shell opening which can, and should also be opened slightly where it blocks part of the port ,with part of the bearing shell ,if your careful to further open access to the port in the block too allow full oil flow to the bearing shells oil port opening. DON,T forget to totally clean up any chips or grinding dust and wash the area till its clean with solvent, little things like that are why its called ENGINE BUILDING vs ASSEMBLING engine PARTS:thumbsup: and why EXPERIANCE COUNTS. BTW avoid the urge to just use a big drill bit to open up the block as it COULD cause stress points in the block that WON,T show untill the blocks under stress remember the upper bearing has far less stress that the lower bearing shell, but it needs to maintain the oil wedge , pressure and flow rates supporting the cranks main journals. ITS comon to need to open that feed port, BUT its best to smooth the block feed port and the bearing feed port to maximize the flow heres a MINIMALLY TEARDROPPED PORT enterance thats the idea! but the TEARDROP being ground into the port exit should be DEEPER to ease flow restriction, and any part of the bearing shell that overlaps the port exit needs to be removed and smoothed http://www.circletrack.com/tipstricks/4636_crankshaft_rod_bearing_installation_tips/index.html http://www.circletrack.com/howto/1815_crankshaft_rod_bearing_install/index.html http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us90126.htm http://engineparts.com/Motorhead/techstuff/crankinstall.html

Quesions: 1. Why would oil pressure peg at 60 psi, regardless of drill rpm? because the stock oil pump has a bye-pass pressure relief circuit, thats built into the pump, thats DESIGNED to bleed off pressure in EXCESS of 60-65 psi 2. Why would there be no oil coming out of the pushrods? this type above is nearly WORTHLESS this type bellow works just fine http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PRO%2D66896&autoview=sku they are dirt cheap or you can make one from and old distributor be sure you turn the engine over at least two full turns while applying pressure to and lubing the oil passages to get full access to all the lifters,rockers,bearings etc. "Why is the first one worthless?" LOOK CLOSELY, the top primer has no collar to keep the drive shaft centered over the pump so it can slightly mis-align and bind, Ive seen them bend the pump drive if guys get them mis-aligned and just throw a high torque 1/2 drill on and spin them without checking, the lower primer has an alignment collar that tends to keep things from breaking,,yes both have the alignment collar for the manifold but only the botom one has the lower block support and alignment sleeve that forms the lower oil passage wall, and the drive collar that assure the oil pump drive itself is lined up correctly,keep in mind,the bottom of the stock distributor forms one wall of the main oil passage to one side of the engine, without that passage wall in place you get no oil pressure to one side and darn little to the other due to the HUGE leak the missing oil passage wall presents, the lower distrib is temporarily replaced with that extra aluminum on the lower primer to simulate the correct oil passage config....THATS WHY! 3. Would I be a fool to try starting the engine without first doing a complete priming, where oil flows out of every rocker? no! it should work without priming but your taking a much higher chance of damaging the bearings , its a whole lot smarter to find and fix potential problem areas before stressing the bearings btw bits of info http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

Ive used similar kits, and even fabricated kits from scratch useing poster board patterns and tape first before cutting the sheet steel, and they are a huge benefit when theres no other route to building or buying a decent race style oil pan for your car, (try a 500 caddy engine as an example) yeah weld it up starting with a stock oil pan and do all the measuring on the car with the engine installed IN the car so you know the clearances are correct for your application

http://www.thirdgen.org/o2tuning bits of usefull info here

"what are ideal temperatures? and where?" theres NO IDEAL temp. COMPRESSION RATIO,TYPE of induction, ETC. effect results , each engine combo will be slightly differant, but theres a comon RANGE for N/A applications and I usually point the IR temp gun at the header tubes about 3" from the heads, while I hold the rpms steady at 1000 rpm, or so.... your looking for CONSISTANCY and cylinder temps that vary significantly indicate potential problems, 1000F-1250F is a normal range once the engine heats up. reading the plugs helps a good deal also. what I look for more than anything else is REASONABLY CONSISTANT CYLINDER TO CYLINDER TEMPS

Ive used a fairly LARGE 10lb CO2 extingisher on most shop minor fires (yeah youll eventually have one if you do enought work) and its so far been ADEQUATE but surely not overkill, I used a 5 lb ABC dry chemical extingisher on a car ONCE! WHAT A TOTAL P.I.T.A. to clean up that total mess! and it BARELY was able to do the job.